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Gay by choice?

Ethan Thane Athen said:
The idea of choice is an interesting one as two of my daughter's friends have just 'decided' they're bi-sexual and the view of my daughter and her friends is that this is now a common thing amongst their generation and is generally done in an attempt to be 'more interesting'. It's almost a fashion thing now - in their minds.

NB Anecdotes are not evidence etc, I just find it interesting how, in the space of a couple of generations, homo / bi sexuality has seemingly gone from stigma, to accepted, to desirable. Obviously with these particular individuals it may just be the flowering of previously suppressed inclinations but they had no reason to suppress them previously and, knowing the individuals I tend to side with my daughter's interpretation.
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To shine a bit of light on that as someone a tad younger who experienced the Fashionably bi craze, while being actually bi.

There is a difference between saying your bi to seem more liberal, or to seem different, and actually being bisexual. And there is a massive difference between a female being bisexual and a male.

It is common as yell for younger people, to claim to be bisexual, this has nothing to do with their preference, but merely their image. Personally i find this half funny half offensive. The amount of **** a bisexual ( especially a bisexual male.) takes from both sides of the fence is enormous, if these kids were to experience the actual issues associated with being bi, they would quickly retire the moniker. But they are kids, this week they are bisexual, next week they are a raver, week after that maybe they are wearing led zeppelin shirts and talking about how music sucks now. It is a different ballgame when dealing with the young and silly.
 
Crossbow said:
If you cannot answer such a question yourself, then I surely cannot answer it for you.
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You might think that you are clever for saying this, but the quite embarrassing fact is that YOU have done just that, ergo already answered that question for Crossbow.
 
Tsukasa Buddha said:
Do you choose to like [insert favourite food]? How does one choose an orientation? And of course there is the majority of scientific research on the matter and the statements of numerous psych association. I have heard of a few reports showing a few cases of fluidity, but there just hasn't been enough. Also, fluidity =/= choice.
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This.

Tsukasa Buddha said:
But it counters the "choosing sin" argument, so you really get nowhere no matter which is true :p .

And I'm not sure she knows what she is communicating herself. She is intentionally choosing an identity that is not congruent with her personal experience of orientation, and doing a very poor job of explaining.
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I love the Food analogy because I find that it is by far the best analogy for discussing sexual orientation. Speaking for myself, most of the food and beverage products that I like, I feel that I have always liked them and I never made a conscious choice to like them. But there is also a small category of food products (and also alcohol drinks) that I sort of educated myself to like over time. As I changed, my tastes changed, and also I did some rational decision-making with some of them (such as, "veggies are good for me, maybe I should give this one a try.... oooh, this one doesn't taste so bad if I put some balsamic vinegar on it, etc etc") so I developed a taste for things I didn't like before, and now I like them as much as those other things I have always liked since I was born.

As I mentioned in another thread after getting in a heated discussion about this topic, I did some research to prove my opponent that there was plenty of solid scientific evidence that proves once and for all that homosexuality is either genetic or at least can be traced to some biological factor. I failed to find this evidence. What I found is that there's a bit of both. There are biological factors but there are also upbringing factors, and that on this topic one cannot generalize. It depends on the individual.

So I feel that sexual orientation, like food, is something that cannot be narrowed to a specific source. It's neither entirely biological nor entirely cultural. It's a bit of both and it depends on the individual. Some people are born with a clear taste of what they like. Others switch back and forth. The important thing is to avoid generalizations such as "Homosexuality is a choice", as much as "Homosexuality is innate in the individual" because it isn't always like that. If we can accept this, we can work toward a society that allows the differences from individual from individual. It's when you generalize and say "Homosexuality is this one thing always for everyone, and anyone deviating from this norm is a freak" that you start to get in trouble.
 
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"I failed to find this evidence. What I found is that there's a bit of both. There are biological factors but there are also upbringing factors, and that on this topic one cannot generalize. It depends on the individual."



This.
 
crimresearch said:
Right. And are black people who choose to identify as white actually just 'unclear' as well? Men who choose to identify as women the same? They just don't know their place?

How lucky the world is to have all of you morally superior beings to tell us how we should be, in order to be what we are.


*ETA*: Seriously, I'm surprised at that choice of words coming from you. It really does read as intolerance. which I've come to expect from others, but not from your posts.
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Wow!

You sure do have a way of quickly personalizing things and thereby taking offense to them.
 
Heterosexual people in certain situations choose to do gay sex fairly often. Especially in prison where its gay sex or no sex. I've also known gay men and women who have kids so you can choose to do straight sex if your gay.
 
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Crossbow said:
Wow!

You sure do have a way of quickly personalizing things and thereby taking offense to them.
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When you broadcast intolerant and judgemental beliefs about others, they *are* going to take it personally.

Your comments about certain people being 'unclear', are divisive and explicitly offensive, whether you admit that or not.
 
crimresearch said:
"I failed to find this evidence. What I found is that there's a bit of both. There are biological factors but there are also upbringing factors, and that on this topic one cannot generalize. It depends on the individual."



This.
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Is there any positive evidence of upbringing instead of say random factors?
 
crimresearch said:
When you broadcast intolerant and judgemental beliefs about others, they *are* going to take it personally.

Your comments about certain people being 'unclear', are divisive and explicitly offensive, whether you admit that or not.
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Wow! Thanks much for so abundantly demonstrating my point.
 
crimresearch said:
Right. And are black people who choose to identify as white actually just 'unclear' as well? Men who choose to identify as women the same? They just don't know their place?

How lucky the world is to have all of you morally superior beings to tell us how we should be, in order to be what we are.


*ETA*: Seriously, I'm surprised at that choice of words coming from you. It really does read as intolerance. which I've come to expect from others, but not from your posts.
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My position is that she is reacting to anti-bisexual intolerance in a remarkably unhealthy fashion. When people say homosexuality is not a choice, they are referring to orientation, not identity. Yet she is claiming that they are caving to bigots, and pronouncing that she is choosing her identity. This just doesn't make sense.

I do not see why identity is something sacrosanct. Indeed, it is largely a cultural product. When people say being "gay" is a modern invention, they are referring to the identity. When people say that they didn't choose to be gay, they are referring to orientation.

Most of us recognise the choice in identity because of the "closet cases". I do not believe such incongruent identities lead to happiness, and I feel no shame in saying so. Just as with this woman who is running away from who she is. The problem, as with closet cases, is that as a public figure she is inviting more hate on her.

Some people, including me, choose the "queer" identity. This leads to lots of crazy discussion, even amongst ourselves (I referenced one earlier about if heterosexuals could be queers). There is tons of discord, but it doesn't get out of hand because when asked most of us explain our orientation. The purpose is not to hide ourselves behind a convenient label, but to allow us to be ourselves without the constraints of the mainstream identities.
 
As someone said earlier Sexual Activity is a choice. you dont choose to be straight but you choose to have sex with the opposite sex. My view is that seeing that there is a choice in acting on sexual preferences then it is not an issue of civil rights issue, this meaning sexual activity not sexual preference.
 
Clearly it's not a choice for most people.

However, if she feels it is a choice in her case, so what? Why should she lie about her feelings just because they might be distorted to play into the agenda of bigots?

There's nothing wrong with choosing to be sexually exclusive to your own gender, and I don't think she should get held to flame for saying as much.

If she'd made a general statement that being gay was a choice, then she should absolutely be called out for it. But she didn't, she even qualified her statement by pointing out that for most people, it's NOT a choice. The fact that her honesty is a convenient soundbite for losers with an axe to grind with LBGT people isn't indicative of a failing on her part. It's their problem, and they're the ones who deserve the scorn.
 
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Honestly, I feel that sexual orientation is a choice in the same way that one's weight is a choice.

One can't flip a mental switch today and suddenly be fifty pounds lighter. Nor do normal people make a conscious, deliberate choice to be overweight or thin or athletic. And there is certainly a large element that is biological, in that people respond to food and stress differently and some bodies are much more likely to shed pounds or pick them up. However, longterm changes in lifestyle do affect weight, musculature, and body mass. We may not have had much choice in what we were fed as children or what our genes say, but we can make decisions as to what we're going to eat now that have a future effect on our body shape and health.

Sexual attraction is the same way. We may not have had much say over our biology or our childhood experiences, but the exposure and experiences I choose to have today can affect my sexual proclivities and reactions in the future.
 
AvalonXQ said:
Honestly, I feel that sexual orientation is a choice in the same way that one's weight is a choice.

One can't flip a mental switch today and suddenly be fifty pounds lighter. Nor do normal people make a conscious, deliberate choice to be overweight or thin or athletic. And there is certainly a large element that is biological, in that people respond to food and stress differently and some bodies are much more likely to shed pounds or pick them up. However, longterm changes in lifestyle do affect weight, musculature, and body mass. We may not have had much choice in what we were fed as children or what our genes say, but we can make decisions as to what we're going to eat now that have a future effect on our body shape and health.

Sexual attraction is the same way. We may not have had much say over our biology or our childhood experiences, but the exposure and experiences I choose to have today can affect my sexual proclivities and reactions in the future.
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This is a much better explanation than most, but the problem is in verifying it. We've got a quite a few mechanisms for unchosen biological and environmental factors. But what about chosen mechanisms? Is orientation only fluid at certain life stages? I know people will try to slip choice in here, but we simply don't have the data to know for sure. We know all about high-fat, low-calorie, gluten-free etc. diets, but we haven't found anything from re-orientation therapy.
 
So in lieu of not knowing for sure, we'll just assume that our personal beliefs are correct and criticise anyone who says they feel differently?
 
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