100 million deaths due to capitalism in the 20th century.

[Ziggurat]

Sigh racism never fades.

Virus said nothing about race. Everything he said was strictly about culture. Culture and race aren't the same thing, and there's nothing racist about saying that some cultures are better than others. Coming on the heals of your attempts to defend communism on the basis that Chinese and Russian cultures are particularly violent, it's also rather hypocritical of you to attempt to level this charge.

When people ask me why I am not willing to defend my country or even respect its existence, I will always remember back to statements like these.

You're not willing to respect or defend your country because... someone said it was worthy of respect and defense.

Yeah, sorry, not seeing the logic there.

 

[L.Y.S.]

Virus said nothing about race. Everything he said was strictly about culture. Culture and race aren't the same thing, and there's nothing racist about saying that some cultures are better than others. Coming on the heals of your attempts to defend communism on the basis that Chinese and Russian cultures are particularly violent, it's also rather hypocritical of you to attempt to level this charge.



You're not willing to respect or defend your country because... someone said it was worthy of respect and defense.

Yeah, sorry, not seeing the logic there.

I didn't try to defend communism, if you knew how to read you would know this, so Fail. And for everything else, K.

 

[curi0us]

I don't care who killed the vast majority of people last century, but saying that the cultures which fielded communism have no responsibility in this issue is poppy-cock. There is a general disregard for individual human life in both these countries, and people keep neglecting this fact when making their assertions on the matter.

So communism isn't bad it's just that the Chinese and Russians have a "general disregard for individual human life"? It's pretty glaring that normally you talk like a person that would avoid such negative cultural stereotyping of non-western peoples but when you need to defend communism it's your goto argument.

I've brushed up on this issue and to be very honest all death estimates of the great leap forward are highly politicized (very similar when talking about the genocide of Native Americans). They range from 18 million (mostly eastern sources) and 45 million (one anti-Chinese western historian (big surprise)). Most reliable sources estimate between 24-30 million individuals (sources that can be found on Wikipedia).

How did you determine that Frank Dikotter was "Anti-Chinese"?

He is a Chair Professor of Humanities at the University of Hong kong and over the last twenty years has written ten different books about Chinese society. His lifelong academic interest is clearly not "anti-Chinese" and really is probably the exact opposite of that. He certainly is anti-Mao and probably anti-communist(?) but those positions are the result of exhaustive dedicated research and there are vast numbers of Chinese people that hold views identical to his own.
http://www0.hku.hk/history/people/staff-frank-dikotter.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Dikötter

Is someone like Yang Jisheng anti-Chinese too?

Beginning in the early 1990s, Yang began interviewing people and collecting records of The Great Famine of 1959-1961, in which his own foster father had died, eventually accumulating ten million words of records. He published a two-volume 1,208 page account of the period, in which he meticulously cited his sources to prevent the Chinese government from dismissing it. It was widely acclaimed as being the definitive account of the Great Famine.[1][4] He begins the book,

"I call this book Tombstone. It is a tombstone for my [foster] father who died of hunger in 1959, for the 36 million Chinese who also died of hunger, for the system that caused their death, and perhaps for myself for writing this book.[1]"

The book, not yet translated from Chinese, was published in Hong Kong and is banned in mainland China.[4] [5]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yang_Jisheng

At any rate, I will not get into a long winded discussion about the total number of deaths caused by communism. I find these arguments to be drab and rather worthless. While it is true that tens of millions died on the watch of communists, I hardly find this to be surprising. Both Russia and China have a long history of collectivism and a general disregard for individual human life stemming back to their perspective creations.

So the during the cold war the communist countries really did have a "general disregard for individual human life" but communism was just an innocent victim to those peoples prior natures?

While it is easy to blame communists for these travesties, I ask the audience to reexamine the fact that both of the perspective nations on trial have a long and bloody history. This fact cannot be overlooked when examining the origin of all of this bloodshed.

You are ignoring that it isn't just those two countries. I already pointed out three other examples with Cambodia and North Korea and Jonestown.

Keep in mind communists (out of power) actually existed in the USA so I have first hand experience here. They come across like brainwashed cultists. One can also actually read communist texts and study their philosophy and see it is fundamentally flawed.

Communism is far from the sole cause of all the death, pain, and suffering witnessed in China and Russia.

Nobody said it was the "sole cause" of all the problems but with Mao and Stalin you have explicitly communist leaders implementing plans to further communist goals and massive death and violence as a direct result of those plans.

Like Nazis who came to power in Germany, there were already long cultural ties to the ideals that help communists get into power.

That is some seriously twisted reverse Godwin logic. Do you honestly want to argue that blaming the Nazi's for what happened in Nazi Germany isn't fair to the Nazi's?"

 

[Ziggurat]

I didn't try to defend communism

Not categorically, but against specific charges of responsibility for deaths, yeah, you have defended communism. I'm quite happy to make that clarification of my previous statement so others don't get the wrong impression.

 

[L.Y.S.]

I've not made the argument in support of communism. I will repeat my position. I am not thoroughly convinced that if Communists had not came to power that all of these "mega deaths" would've been avoided. A great example is GLF; grain was already in short supply in post war china. China was experiencing rapid growth. Politicians already understood that there would be a large shortage of grain. People were already expected to starve and die in the millions, however, the decision of the Maoists to try and collectivize farms for use made the situation worse. As a result, instead of only 3-12 million people dying from starvation and hunger, nearly 25 million did. I am not defending communism, nor do I care about it to be honest. And if mega deaths had still occurred while under the watch of these two countries, then the argument would not be against communism, but against the inferiority of non-western cultures. One of the greatest reasons for the success of communism, are the responding cultures hatred for the west. I'm not thoroughly convinced that there can ever truly be a fair argument on this subject. Furthermore, communism, capitalism, fascism, and all other socio-economic systems suck and are doomed to fail. Most humans will be dead by the latter half of this century. Have a nice day.

 

[L.Y.S.]

Not categorically, but against specific charges of responsibility for deaths, yeah, you have defended communism. I'm quite happy to make that clarification of my previous statement so others don't get the wrong impression.

Ok

 

[Ziggurat]

Furthermore, communism, capitalism, fascism, and all other socio-economic systems suck and are doomed to fail. Most humans will be dead by the latter half of this century. Have a nice day.

That seems... unlikely. Unless you know about some asteroid the rest of us don't know about.

 

[L.Y.S.]

That seems... unlikely. Unless you know about some asteroid the rest of us don't know about.

K, keep thinking this.

 

[curi0us]

Chiang Kai-Shek was incompetent and could not handle the task of feeding 500 million people, so was Mao Zedong, Mao however made it worse. There still would've been mass starvation in China. They had a deficit of grain supply and they were one of the poorest countries on Earth. I doubt that the nationalists would've done any better. GLF increased deaths not perpetuated them. There is no evidence to support that China would’ve had the means to feed these people regardless of who came to power, seeing as the grain shortages stem back to the end of Imperial China.

Ahah! Here is a major point of contention that goes to the heart of the dispute. Far more important then the number of dead is why they died:

Yang Jisheng, a long-time communist party member and a reporter for the official Chinese news agency Xinhua, puts the blame squarely on Maoist policies, such as diverting agricultural workers to steel production instead of growing crops, and exporting grain at the same time.[76][77] During the course of his research, Yang uncovered that some 22 million tons of grain was held in public granaries at the height of the famine, reports of the starvation went up the bureaucracy only to be ignored by top officials, and the authorities ordered that statistics be destroyed in regions where population decline became evident.[78] Economist Steven Rosefielde argues that Yang's account "shows that Mao's slaughter was caused in considerable part by terror-starvation; that is, voluntary manslaughter (and perhaps murder) rather than innocuous famine."[79] Yang notes that local party officials were indifferent to the large number of people dying around them, as their primary concern was the delivery of grain, which Mao wanted to use to pay back debts to the USSR totaling 1.973 billion yuan. In Xinyang, people died of starvation at the doors of grain warehouses.[80] Mao refused to open the state granaries as he dismissed reports of food shortages and accused the peasants of hiding grain.[81] From his research into records and talks with experts at the meteorological bureau, Yang concludes that the weather during the Great leap forward was not unusual compared to other periods and was not a factor.[62] Yang also believes that the Sino-Soviet split was not a factor because it did not happen until 1960, when the famine was well under way.[62]

Chang and Halliday argue that "Mao had actually allowed for many more deaths. Although slaughter was not his purpose with the Leap, he was more than ready for myriad deaths to result, and had hinted to his top echelon that they should not be too shocked if they happened."[82] Democide historian R.J. Rummel had originally classified the famine deaths as unintentional.[83] In light of evidence provided in Chang and Halliday’s book, he now believes that the mass dyings associated with Great Leap Forward constitute democide (murder).[84]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward

 

[L.Y.S.]

Ahah! Here is a major point of contention that goes to the heart of the dispute. Far more important then the number of dead is why they died:

Yang Jisheng, a long-time communist party member and a reporter for the official Chinese news agency Xinhua, puts the blame squarely on Maoist policies, such as diverting agricultural workers to steel production instead of growing crops, and exporting grain at the same time.[76][77] During the course of his research, Yang uncovered that some 22 million tons of grain was held in public granaries at the height of the famine, reports of the starvation went up the bureaucracy only to be ignored by top officials, and the authorities ordered that statistics be destroyed in regions where population decline became evident.[78] Economist Steven Rosefielde argues that Yang's account "shows that Mao's slaughter was caused in considerable part by terror-starvation; that is, voluntary manslaughter (and perhaps murder) rather than innocuous famine."[79] Yang notes that local party officials were indifferent to the large number of people dying around them, as their primary concern was the delivery of grain, which Mao wanted to use to pay back debts to the USSR totaling 1.973 billion yuan. In Xinyang, people died of starvation at the doors of grain warehouses.[80] Mao refused to open the state granaries as he dismissed reports of food shortages and accused the peasants of hiding grain.[81] From his research into records and talks with experts at the meteorological bureau, Yang concludes that the weather during the Great leap forward was not unusual compared to other periods and was not a factor.[62] Yang also believes that the Sino-Soviet split was not a factor because it did not happen until 1960, when the famine was well under way.[62]

Chang and Halliday argue that "Mao had actually allowed for many more deaths. Although slaughter was not his purpose with the Leap, he was more than ready for myriad deaths to result, and had hinted to his top echelon that they should not be too shocked if they happened."[82] Democide historian R.J. Rummel had originally classified the famine deaths as unintentional.[83] In light of evidence provided in Chang and Halliday’s book, he now believes that the mass dyings associated with Great Leap Forward constitute democide (murder).[84]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward

Good job

 

[Ziggurat]

K, keep thinking this.

I will indeed keep thinking this until given a reason to think otherwise. Which you apparently have no interest in providing. Which is fine, but just don't expect anyone to take your doomsday pronouncements seriously if you don't even explain where they come from.

 

[timhau]

The West, being the world's superior culture,

Sigh racism never fades.

How is that different from your claim that the Chinese and the Russian cultures have a general disregard for individual human life?

 

[TubbaBlubba]

This still doesn't change the fact that the Soc Dems and the Greens are the left-wing parties that can attract the centrist voters. The Left Party can't do that. In the last election, the alliance with the Left Party actually scarred away voters from the Soc Dems.

Note that the article said Ohly. He was a catastrophical mistake.

And what of the Left Party's foreign policy? They would (if they could) cut us off from our natural friends (the US and the other European countries) in exchange for... yeah? Probably some "anti-imperialist" like Gaddafi. They would lead us into international isolation, which is certainly not in the interest of a small, open, export-dependent and trade-dependent economy like ours.

I'd have to ask you to source that, I can't find anything pertaining to that in their party program.

 

[L.Y.S.]

I will indeed keep thinking this until given a reason to think otherwise. Which you apparently have no interest in providing. Which is fine, but just don't expect anyone to take your doomsday pronouncements seriously if you don't even explain where they come from.

The west barely manages to fix structural problems when they arise. I am almost certain no one will lift a finger to fix any sort of the structural problems in western civilization. The only thing the west has to keep doing is nothing. Think that nothing will happen and allow for the system to continually rot. Infinite growth is one of the largest myths in human history. Infinite growth usually meets his older more rational brother collapse along the way. It is only a matter of time before this society has the same fate as other societies in the past if we do not make major reforms to the system.

And no I don't expect people to take me seriously. I expect people to ignore me as they have. It's only human nature to shut out people who point out obvious weaknesses.

 

[L.Y.S.]

How is that different from your claim that the Chinese and the Russian cultures have a general disregard for individual human life?

Fortunate for us Chinese and Russian aren't races of people but ethnic groups with in races.

 

[The Dark Lord]

Fortunate for us Chinese and Russian aren't races of people but ethnic groups with in races.

Nobody is talking about race except for you.

It is pretty funny how you think its a bad thing when Virus says that Western culture is superior yet at the same time you excuse communism by saying that Russian and Chinese culture did not value human life.

 

[HoverBoarder]

So communism isn't bad it's just that the Chinese and Russians have a "general disregard for individual human life"? It's pretty glaring that normally you talk like a person that would avoid such negative cultural stereotyping of non-western peoples but when you need to defend communism it's your goto argument.

How did you determine that Frank Dikotter was "Anti-Chinese"?

He is a Chair Professor of Humanities at the University of Hong kong and over the last twenty years has written ten different books about Chinese society. His lifelong academic interest is clearly not "anti-Chinese" and really is probably the exact opposite of that. He certainly is anti-Mao and probably anti-communist(?) but those positions are the result of exhaustive dedicated research and there are vast numbers of Chinese people that hold views identical to his own.
http://www0.hku.hk/history/people/staff-frank-dikotter.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Dikötter

Is someone like Yang Jisheng anti-Chinese too?

Beginning in the early 1990s, Yang began interviewing people and collecting records of The Great Famine of 1959-1961, in which his own foster father had died, eventually accumulating ten million words of records. He published a two-volume 1,208 page account of the period, in which he meticulously cited his sources to prevent the Chinese government from dismissing it. It was widely acclaimed as being the definitive account of the Great Famine.[1][4] He begins the book,

"I call this book Tombstone. It is a tombstone for my [foster] father who died of hunger in 1959, for the 36 million Chinese who also died of hunger, for the system that caused their death, and perhaps for myself for writing this book.[1]"

The book, not yet translated from Chinese, was published in Hong Kong and is banned in mainland China.[4] [5]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yang_Jisheng



So the during the cold war the communist countries really did have a "general disregard for individual human life" but communism was just an innocent victim to those peoples prior natures?



You are ignoring that it isn't just those two countries. I already pointed out three other examples with Cambodia and North Korea and Jonestown.

Keep in mind communists (out of power) actually existed in the USA so I have first hand experience here. They come across like brainwashed cultists. One can also actually read communist texts and study their philosophy and see it is fundamentally flawed.

Nobody said it was the "sole cause" of all the problems but with Mao and Stalin you have explicitly communist leaders implementing plans to further communist goals and massive death and violence as a direct result of those plans.

That is some seriously twisted reverse Godwin logic. Do you honestly want to argue that blaming the Nazi's for what happened in Nazi Germany isn't fair to the Nazi's?"

I've not made the argument in support of communism. I will repeat my position. I am not thoroughly convinced that if Communists had not came to power that all of these "mega deaths" would've been avoided. A great example is GLF; grain was already in short supply in post war china. China was experiencing rapid growth. Politicians already understood that there would be a large shortage of grain. People were already expected to starve and die in the millions, however, the decision of the Maoists to try and collectivize farms for use made the situation worse. As a result, instead of only 3-12 million people dying from starvation and hunger, nearly 25 million did. I am not defending communism, nor do I care about it to be honest. And if mega deaths had still occurred while under the watch of these two countries, then the argument would not be against communism, but against the inferiority of non-western cultures. One of the greatest reasons for the success of communism, are the responding cultures hatred for the west. I'm not thoroughly convinced that there can ever truly be a fair argument on this subject. Furthermore, communism, capitalism, fascism, and all other socio-economic systems suck and are doomed to fail. Most humans will be dead by the latter half of this century. Have a nice day.

Ahah! Here is a major point of contention that goes to the heart of the dispute. Far more important then the number of dead is why they died:

Yang Jisheng, a long-time communist party member and a reporter for the official Chinese news agency Xinhua, puts the blame squarely on Maoist policies, such as diverting agricultural workers to steel production instead of growing crops, and exporting grain at the same time.[76][77] During the course of his research, Yang uncovered that some 22 million tons of grain was held in public granaries at the height of the famine, reports of the starvation went up the bureaucracy only to be ignored by top officials, and the authorities ordered that statistics be destroyed in regions where population decline became evident.[78] Economist Steven Rosefielde argues that Yang's account "shows that Mao's slaughter was caused in considerable part by terror-starvation; that is, voluntary manslaughter (and perhaps murder) rather than innocuous famine."[79] Yang notes that local party officials were indifferent to the large number of people dying around them, as their primary concern was the delivery of grain, which Mao wanted to use to pay back debts to the USSR totaling 1.973 billion yuan. In Xinyang, people died of starvation at the doors of grain warehouses.[80] Mao refused to open the state granaries as he dismissed reports of food shortages and accused the peasants of hiding grain.[81] From his research into records and talks with experts at the meteorological bureau, Yang concludes that the weather during the Great leap forward was not unusual compared to other periods and was not a factor.[62] Yang also believes that the Sino-Soviet split was not a factor because it did not happen until 1960, when the famine was well under way.[62]

Chang and Halliday argue that "Mao had actually allowed for many more deaths. Although slaughter was not his purpose with the Leap, he was more than ready for myriad deaths to result, and had hinted to his top echelon that they should not be too shocked if they happened."[82] Democide historian R.J. Rummel had originally classified the famine deaths as unintentional.[83] In light of evidence provided in Chang and Halliday’s book, he now believes that the mass dyings associated with Great Leap Forward constitute democide (murder).[84]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward

Good job

How is that different from your claim that the Chinese and the Russian cultures have a general disregard for individual human life?

I think by his statement of "good job," LYS is admitting his error of attributing the millions of deaths that occurred under communist rule to racial inferiority of the cultures rather than the inherent flaws in the communist systems that the countries were subscribing to.

The "good job" is due to Curious's effort in obtaining a strong factual basis for understanding why so many millions of people were killed in Communist China, Cambodia, and North Korea. Instead of relying on unsupported assumptions and racial bias.

 

[The Dark Lord]

The west barely manages to fix structural problems when they arise. I am almost certain no one will lift a finger to fix any sort of the structural problems in western civilization. The only thing the west has to keep doing is nothing. Think that nothing will happen and allow for the system to continually rot. Infinite growth is one of the largest myths in human history. Infinite growth usually meets his older more rational brother collapse along the way. It is only a matter of time before this society has the same fate as other societies in the past if we do not make major reforms to the system.

And no I don't expect people to take me seriously. I expect people to ignore me as they have. It's only human nature to shut out people who point out obvious weaknesses.

It is human nature to ignore people who make doomsday predictions based on nothing.

PS: Even if the system does collapse, it doesn't follow that billions of people will die.

 

[L.Y.S.]

I think by his statement of "good job," LYS is admitting his error of attributing the millions of deaths that occurred under communist rule to racial inferiority of the cultures rather than the inherent flaws in the communist systems that the countries were subscribing to.

The "good job" is due to Curious's effort in obtaining a strong factual basis for understanding why so many millions of people were killed in Communist China, Cambodia, and North Korea. Instead of relying on unsupported assumptions and racial bias.

Ok

 

[Humes fork]

How do you then explain the remarkable differences between North and South Korea?

Or between China and Taiwan?