Vaccines: how do I talk to my anti-vac wife about it?

[Lamuella]

trusetheeker, you claimed to know "the cause and cure of cancers, MS, diabetes, atheriosclerosis, AIDS, arthritis, etc". Would you mind sharing?

 

[Safe-Keeper]

trusetheeker, you claimed to know "the cause and cure of cancers, MS, diabetes, atheriosclerosis, AIDS, arthritis, etc". Would you mind sharing?

Since these are all "all-natural!!111" ailments and curing sickness is morally reprehensible, I guess the only politically correct cure would be death.

What's to deny. The germ theory was killed off decades ago by Koch and his annoying postulates. You know it was, because the industry quit looking for germs and went after viruses. Now that virus theory is also dying, it's all bad genes. The gene theory of disease will also starve due to lack of real evidence but as with germs and viruses, you guys will ignore the unpalatable proof and carry on regardless with your life-destroying potions.

"truth"seeker, if I placed a petri dish full of virii and healthy cells under a microscope and let you look into the microscope and watch for yourself the virii corrupting the healthy cells, what would be your reaction?

Is this image of a virus photoshopped?

 

[Safe-Keeper]

Okay, let me actually tackle this one:

Vaccines are just nature's way of holistically healing the ravages of disease brought on by evil humors.

I sense you're implying the naturalistic fallacy (natural=good, "unnatural"=bad).

All things on this earth are natural, and things made by man are even more so. Mercury is a pure, healing substance, and other metals like aluminum are similarly so.

First of all, you're making the naturalistic fallacy again, and secondly, you're making the assumption, based on this fallacious worldview, that because mercury is dangerous in sufficent quantities, it must be "unnatural". In reality, it's an element. Doesn't get much more natural than that.

The bioquantum pathogenetic effects of vaccines sets up an EMF which imparts unique healing and prophylactic powers. If the vaccines are injected directly into the blood stream, as they almost always are, this power is amplified within the neuroendocrine immune axis in the brain.

I don't know what you're trying to imply here. That the vaccines don't work in a natural way, and are therefore bad? That "prepping" the immune system by injecting a small dose of what you want it to fight, so that it'll be prepared next time, is a bad thing? What?

Any apparent ill effect from vaccines is merely the body's way of implementing energy healing and is harmless

Has anyone actually claimed that vaccine side-effects are harmless in this thread, or are you making a strawman?

and any persisting ill effects are the result of mistaken attempts by parents to seek alternative healing modalities instead of letting the vaccine's regeneration effects take their natural time course.

Agani, has anyone actually said anything like this?

 

[Estellea]

Nicely timed. Here's Wakefield's defamation petition against Deer, the BMJ and BMJ's Godlee. http://www.courthousenews.com/2012/01/04/BritMedJ.pdf. It seems that everything that you've been accusing Wakefield of is unfounded but doubly true about Deer and Godlee. At the moment, it's just claim and counterclaim but the difference is that Wakefield's claim will be tested in a court of law where the defendents have the right to defend themselves whereas Wakefield was condemned in a court of GMC without right of defense or appeal.

You are skipping some crucial steps here, first this is a petition for suit, not a judgement, next, Wakefield et al. have to get through jurisdiction, then discovery and hope he isn't SLAPPed, which would mean that he would have to pay court, legal and punitive damages. My wager is that it won't get passed discovery. Wakefield had numerous opportunities to defend himself, first there was his libel suit against Deer and Channel 4, which oops, he had to withdraw from and pay Deer's legal fees and also allowed him the opportunity to see the medical records which was his ultimate downfall. Then there was the GMC fitness to practice hearing which he offered no defence although his co-defendants did. By the way the GMC FTP hearing was with a criminal standard of evidence so I don't know why you think he would get a better deal in Amurkin courts. He then failed to file an appeal, something which his co-defendant Dr. Walker-Smith is in the midst of. If Wakefield was so unguilty, then why did he piss away all of these opportunities to demonstrate that?

Will you be offering yourself as a character witness for Deer and Godlee as you've spent so much time repeating their venom?

Wouldn't have to even if I was asked as this is a frivolous suit and a pure publicity stunt that Wakefield won't get passed discovery on. So since you think that your Amurkin court is so superior to that of the UK's GMC FTP hearing, then I'll expect you own what the verdict or judgement may be.

Este

 

[Morrigan]

disease is nature's way of curing the body of toxicosis and restoring homeostasis

...WHAT?

Ye know not of what ye speak. Nature provided us with food ready to eat straight from the plant. If we take those foods and cook them, we denature them. If we cook other plants such as the potato that we're not designed to eat and cook it to make it digestible, we get an additional food source but most of what we hoped to gain from it winds up denatured. Denatured foods and inappropriate foods increase the burden on our digestion system and our elimination systems and the high-fat, high-cholesterol, high-protein diet results in the myriad diseases of civilization.

...WHAT?

So... much... woo.

Vaccines are just nature's way of holistically healing the ravages of disease brought on by evil humors. All things on this earth are natural, and things made by man are even more so. Mercury is a pure, healing substance, and other metals like aluminum are similarly so.

The bioquantum pathogenetic effects of vaccines sets up an EMF which imparts unique healing and prophylactic powers. If the vaccines are injected directly into the blood stream, as they almost always are, this power is amplified within the neuroendocrine immune axis in the brain.

Any apparent ill effect from vaccines is merely the body's way of implementing energy healing and is harmless, and any persisting ill effects are the result of mistaken attempts by parents to seek alternative healing modalities instead of letting the vaccine's regeneration effects take their natural time course.

That was awesome. Excellent parody, sir/ma'am.

What's to deny. The germ theory was killed off decades ago by Koch and his annoying postulates. You know it was, because the industry quit looking for germs and went after viruses.

Okay, NOW I know you're just a troll. Because even the absolutely wackiest nutjob would know that viruses are included in the term "germs".

The "infectious" diseases that killed people before modern medicine took over were actually malnutrition combined with putrid air, water and living conditions.

Putrid air and water... geez, I wonder how that water got so putrid. Certainly not a crapton of germs that our modern water filtering plant eliminate, right.

 

[Travis]

Yes. Raw fruit and those succulent vegetables which can be eaten and enjoyed raw. Any "food" that cannot be eaten uncooked is best not eaten but needs must according to circumstances.

So you're willing to even throw away the technological advances of the late Pleistocene.

What about clothes? Surely you shouldn't wear clothes. For that matter why are you on the internet? Shouldn't you be out chasing down berries naked at least until you die of old age somewhere around 45 years old?

 

[Kid Eager]

You know a lot about your chosen subject but are typically unaware of the most important information concerning health. You must be a doctor. Believing that anti-biotics are lifesavers does not make them so.

You would do well to read Ross Horne's Health & Survival in the 21st Century. It will open your eyes to a vast world of contrary opinion that will help you focus your misinformation strategy. Otherwise read anything by Herbert Shelton, TC Fry, Douglas Graham,...




What's to deny. The germ theory was killed off decades ago by Koch and his annoying postulates. You know it was, because the industry quit looking for germs and went after viruses. Now that virus theory is also dying, it's all bad genes. The gene theory of disease will also starve due to lack of real evidence but as with germs and viruses, you guys will ignore the unpalatable proof and carry on regardless with your life-destroying potions.

The "infectious" diseases that killed people before modern medicine took over were actually malnutrition combined with putrid air, water and living conditions. That malnutrition wasn't necessarily from a lack of food but often from a surfeit of unwholesome food. Look how easily scurvy and rickets were eradicated once some bright spark noticed how consuming fruit and veg and, in the latter case, fish oil made an important difference.

Look at all the people who don't get any of the diseases of civilisation because either they're uncivilised or because they understand the causes of health and avoid the pitfalls of conventional living.

And as for your dead measle patients, it wasn't the measles that killed them. It was a lack of knowledge on the behalf of their health providers and parents that might have been forgivable 200 years ago but in the last century or more, the medical profession has actively suppressed the truth about disease, to protect their lucrative industry and exalted positions within society.

The history of modern medicine reads like a neverending disaster story and the cemeteries are full with the victims whose lives were cut short by the carnage.

This whole post is reported for intentional ignorance. Surely nobody could actually think this and still be a functional human being.

 

[trusetheeker]

and what was that answer?

In a nutshell, healthy living. The Natural Hygiene movement has been providing this answer, in ever increasing detail, for the better part of 2 centuries. The science that supports it is all on record but, as with NH, much of it is ignored by the medical community. In some cases, the science is accepted but incorrectly interpreted.

Overtaxing the body with a diet of high-fat / high-cholesterol / high-protein / high-sugar or a combination of these, constant stress, too little sleep, rest and relaxation, insufficient sunshine, fresh air, pure water can all create toxemia and toxicosis. Getting back to basics especially in the diet will eventually allow the body to detoxify and return to health.

Additionally notes:

Extracts from Health & Survival in the 21st Century, Ross Horne

"Cancer, above all other diseases, has countless secondary causes. But, even for cancer, there is only one prime cause. Summarized in a few words, the prime cause of cancer is the replacement of the respiration of oxygen in normal body cells by a fermentation of sugar." -- Dr. Otto H. Warburg

In fact, Dr Warburg was not the first to demonstrate that cancer arose from cells whose normal respiration had been disturbed. P.G. Seeger had proven this in 1936, 1937 and 1938 but it was F. Windisch in 1947 who succeeded in changing normal cells into cancer cells by intermittently withholding oxygen from them, an experiment repeated in 1953 by H. Goldblatt and G. Cameron. Dr Warburg's experiments, however, actually measured the degrees of respiration and fermentation involved in the transformation of cells, and actually measured the oxygen pressures inside tumors in the living body.

Dr Warburg did not physically interfere with the experimental healthy cells in any way, and he did not employ chemicals, heat or radiation--he merely reduced their supply of oxygen. When he reduced the oxygen needed by the cells for normal respiration by thirty-five per cent, they de-differentiated to become cancer cells.

How can cells in the human body with an unrestricted air supply be deprived of oxygen? Answer: toxemia (unhealthy blood).

At the meeting of Nobel Laureates in Lindau, Germany on 30 June 1966, Dr Otto Warburg concluded his address as follows:

"Nobody today can say that one does not know what cancer and its prime cause be. On the contrary, there is no disease whose prime cause is better known, so that today ignorance is no excuse that one cannot do more about prevention. The prevention of cancer will come there is no doubt, for man wishes to survive. But how long prevention will be avoided depends on how long the prophets of agnosticism will succeed in inhibiting the application of scientific knowledge in the cancer field. In the meantime, millions of people must die of cancer unnecessarily."

 

[trusetheeker]

You do realise that you are on a sceptics' forum and you are going to have to bring more to the table than your opinion. Furthermore, health and the utilisation of medicine are not mutually exclusive, quite the contrary in fact and since you are so fond of anecdotes, my very healthy family is proof of that.

Este

I'm glad to hear that you're family is in great health and may it always be so.

Are they drinking their milk and eating plenty of meat and grain products? I certainly hope not as these "foods" will be robbing the calcium from their bones and teeth. Bad teeth and early osteoporosis seem to be commonplace these days but people are rarely aware that the decay has been building up over a lifetime by the very foods that the FDA recommends so highly.

I don't actually have to bring anything to the table other than the idea that there is another world out there where disease isn't inevitable. Those who want it proven to them by peer-reviewed, scientific studies will sit there staring at their monitors. Those with inquiring minds will seek out the evidence (like what I did) and either take advantage of the knowledge or decide it's not for them and keep on as they are.

 

[trusetheeker]

I wonder how long he'd survive in Africa or Central America with his 'natural hygiene'

Natural Hygienists live very well in Central America as fresh fruit is usually available straight from the tree year round. The people that I know living there have a great life but unfortunately I cannot join them (yet!)

Africa I don't know about but I suspect that in many places your main health issue is American bombardment as they try to save you from "terrorists."

 

[trusetheeker]

And as a corollary to this wonderful line of logic, because we don't know exactly what causes alzheimers, we cannot rule out chewing gum as the culprit.

Absolutely but don't forget the other million possible factors. Now if alzheimers started within a week of chewing a newly introduced gum, would you discount it immediately or add it to the list of suspects for further investigation?

 

[Estellea]

This whole post is reported for intentional ignorance. Surely nobody could actually think this and still be a functional human being.

Sadly, they can. Truseeker is far from being the only one with this train of thought.

Este

 

[Estellea]

I'm glad to hear that you're family is in great health and may it always be so.

Are they drinking their milk and eating plenty of meat and grain products? I certainly hope not as these "foods" will be robbing the calcium from their bones and teeth. Bad teeth and early osteoporosis seem to be commonplace these days but people are rarely aware that the decay has been building up over a lifetime by the very foods that the FDA recommends so highly.

I don't actually have to bring anything to the table other than the idea that there is another world out there where disease isn't inevitable. Those who want it proven to them by peer-reviewed, scientific studies will sit there staring at their monitors. Those with inquiring minds will seek out the evidence (like what I did) and either take advantage of the knowledge or decide it's not for them and keep on as they are.

As odd as you may find this, I'm not going to take dietary or medical advice from someone like you. You make a fine anthropological study though.

Este

 

[trusetheeker]

Why not? She kills people. If someone listens to you and doesn't vaccinate then you are killing people too.

What happened to innocent until proven guilty? If you listened to yourself, you'd realise how dumb your viewpoint is. Iatrogenic disease is the 3rd most fatal disease in the USA but where do you find the stats for each doctor or other health care worker who's managed to top some of their patients. Your pretty forgiving when there's an actual proven link between a dead person and one or more people involved in their untimely death.

Will you also get behind the campaign to end the use of seat belts in cars? After all a small number of people are injured by seat belts every year. And who cares how many lives they save? We only want perfect solutions.

No but I would get behind the campaign to make safer seat belts or at least to educate people on the risks involved so that could take precautions to negate the risks. I suppose you think it's best to just keep quiet in case someone stops using their belt? That's in my book as "playing God!"

 

[trusetheeker]

No. Since there are cases of children who have not been vaccinated developing autism, it is safe to say it is not the "culprit".

You must be from the school that believes that each "disease" has one unique "cause" and one unique drug to cure it.

I'm from a school that believes that all "disease" has a single cause "toxemia" although toxemia can be caused by a number of unhealthy practices. The cure is to stop the unhealthy practices, start the healthy practices and allow the body to detoxify itself and return to homeostasis.

In my school, autism will be caused by unhealthy practices or exposure to environmental hazards, possibly before, during or after childbirth and nothing rules out different pathways to arrive at the same conclusion. So far, I've not encountered any involvement between a Hygienist and an autism patient so cannot add anything to this.

 

[trusetheeker]

He said 'food,' not just fruits and vegetables.

Yes, he did and I answered the question.

 

[Chris Haynes]

 

[Kid Eager]

You must be from the school that believes that each "disease" has one unique "cause" and one unique drug to cure it.

I'm from a school that believes that all "disease" has a single cause "toxemia" although toxemia can be caused by a number of unhealthy practices. The cure is to stop the unhealthy practices, start the healthy practices and allow the body to detoxify itself and return to homeostasis.

In my school, autism will be caused by unhealthy practices or exposure to environmental hazards, possibly before, during or after childbirth and nothing rules out different pathways to arrive at the same conclusion. So far, I've not encountered any involvement between a Hygienist and an autism patient so cannot add anything to this.

That is just an argument from ignorance. Surely you can do better than that in seeking the "truse"

 

[Morrigan]

I hope against hope that this person does not breed... -_-

 

[ehcks]

Everything you say is in nearly perfect opposition to the actual truth.

Vaccines cause diseases?
Milk strips calcium?
Cooking denatures food? (Denaturing means making the food poisonous or distasteful.)

To keep myself sane I simply must believe you're a troll.

And then my signature mocks me...