Vaccines: how do I talk to my anti-vac wife about it?

[laca]

True but unfortunately she's just one of billions of cash cows for the drug and medical industry. They might be doing this out of maliciousness or willful blindness but the damage is done nevertheless.

She's also one of the obvious victims. The drugs, vaccines, chemos, radiation and unnecessary surgery is helping bring mankind slowly and painfully to extinction but the real killer is the consumption of animal products and denatured fruit and veg which the medical profession supports through it's supposed expertise in health.

I don't suppose you got evidence for any of the above. Until you do, you're just rambling. Sorry, but it's not working. You have to do much better.

 

[ehcks]

True but unfortunately she's just one of billions of cash cows for the drug and medical industry. They might be doing this out of maliciousness or willful blindness but the damage is done nevertheless.

She's also one of the obvious victims. The drugs, vaccines, chemos, radiation and unnecessary surgery is helping bring mankind slowly and painfully to extinction but the real killer is the consumption of animal products and denatured fruit and veg which the medical profession supports through it's supposed expertise in health.

So... much... wrong...

Vaccines are the least profitable thing you can do about diseases. One day in a hospital bed costs more than a lifetime schedule of vaccines.

Medical procedures let us live longer and more healthily, which is the opposite of tending toward extinction. The idea that we could overpopulate the planet and then wipe ourselves out is both stupid and irrelevant.

Since when has eating meat been something an omnivorous animal should avoid outright? Humans have eaten meat for long over a hundred thousand years. Primates have been eating meat for millions of years. Where's the problem?

No one supports eating denatured food. The very purpose of denaturing something is to prevent people from eating it.

 

[Clayton Moore]

So... much... wrong...

Vaccines are the least profitable thing you can do about diseases. One day in a hospital bed costs more than a lifetime schedule of vaccines.

The huge use of vaccines is bad medicine.

http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/tag/brain-inflammation/

brain inflammation Archive

William C. Douglass Jr, MD

October 3, 2011

In the latest attempt to “prove” vaccines don’t cause autism, the Institute of Medicine ended up admitting that standard childhood shots can cause just about everything else.

This mainest of all mainstream medical bodies — the same group that rejects vitamin D supplements and sets recommended nutritional intakes ridiculously low — says there’s “convincing evidence” that common vaccines can cause seizures, brain inflammation, infection, body encephalitis, pneumonia, meningitis, hepatitis and more.

But not autism.

Brain inflammation… meningitis… body encephalitis… need I go on? With a list like that, who needs autism?!?

Those aren’t the only problems with vaccines. Despite what you’ve heard, inoculations haven’t saved lives — they’ve harmed millions, killed thousands, and weakened the natural immunity of the entire human race.

www.douglassreport.com

 

[Estellea]

Clayton, do you think you can address the deficits of your other claims before spamming with yet more ridiculous claims? The graph that you presented from CHS is demonstrably wrong and I provided you with the original study. Aren't you remotely concerned that you believe a completely fabricated graph? Don't you ever question your sources when presented with with such obvious disparities?

Este

 

[Clayton Moore]

Clayton, do you think you can address the deficits of your other claims before spamming with yet more ridiculous claims? The graph that you presented from CHS is demonstrably wrong and I provided you with the original study. Aren't you remotely concerned that you believe a completely fabricated graph? Don't you ever question your sources when presented with with such obvious disparities?

Este

The link you found seemed scientific as all get out.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15877763

No effect of MMR withdrawal on the incidence of autism: a total population study.
Honda H, Shimizu Y, Rutter M.
Source

Yokohama Rehabilitation Center, Yokohama, Japan. [email protected]
Abstract
BACKGROUND:

A causal relationship between the measles, mumps, and rubella (MMR) vaccine and occurrence of autism spectrum disorders (ASD) has been claimed, based on an increase in ASD in the USA and the UK after introduction of the MMR vaccine. However, the possibility that this increase is coincidental has not been eliminated. The unique circumstances of a Japanese MMR vaccination program provide an opportunity for comparison of ASD incidence before and after termination of the program.
METHODS:

This study examined cumulative incidence of ASD up to age seven for children born from 1988 to 1996 in Kohoku Ward (population approximately 300,000), Yokohama, Japan. ASD cases included all cases of pervasive developmental disorders according to ICD-10 guidelines.
RESULTS:

The MMR vaccination rate in the city of Yokohama declined significantly in the birth cohorts of years 1988 through 1992, and not a single vaccination was administered in 1993 or thereafter. In contrast, cumulative incidence of ASD up to age seven increased significantly in the birth cohorts of years 1988 through 1996 and most notably rose dramatically beginning with the birth cohort of 1993.
CONCLUSIONS:

The significance of this finding is that MMR vaccination is most unlikely to be a main cause of ASD, that it cannot explain the rise over time in the incidence of ASD, and that withdrawal of MMR in countries where it is still being used cannot be expected to lead to a reduction in the incidence of ASD.

I'll stick with my link.

http://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/2009/06/03/japvaxautism/

 

[Estellea]

The link you found seemed scientific as all get out.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15877763


I'll stick with my link.

http://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/2009/06/03/japvaxautism/

This has to be either the saddest or funniest thing I've read in a while.

Este

 

[Chris Haynes]

Mr. Moore, earlier you posted some paper by a man who supports shaking children, Buttram. In it Buttram claimed that the level of autism in the USA started to rise with the introduction of the MMR vaccine. Dr. Buttram did not properly reference that claim, and had the wrong year of MMR introduction.

I have asked you multiple times to post the title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed papers that show a rise of autism in the USA was noticed starting in 1971. This is also a way to see where Wakefield came up with the idea a vaccine that had been in use for twenty years around the globe was dangerous.

Now, please show us the actual cites that there was a significant rise of autism in the United States in America after 1971, with no paper dated after 1997 (must predate Wakefield's 1998 paper).

 

[Deetee]

Also, here is some fallout of Japan dropping its MMR and making measles vaccination voluntary: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1177963/ ...

Clayton,
I'd really appreciate to know if you think this outcome is preferrable to the (disputed and likely nonexistent) risk of a child getting autism from MMR.

Specifically, I think you need to understand that aside from the clinical problems of cases of mumps encephalitis and congenital rubella that would occur, and that not only were there at least 88 deaths from measles, but there will approximately also have been the following complications related to 200,000 clinical cases:

20,000 febrile convulsions
20,000 hospital admissions
10,000 cases of pneumonia
200 cases of measles encephalitis
10 cases of SSPE (a chronic, fatal form of encephalitis which only hits children later in life)

So apart from the deaths, this outbreak would cause hundreds of cases of persisting brain damage.

Congratulations are in order for you antivaxers.
I can see you all doing celebratory high fives at the death and destruction you wreak.

Edited by LashL: 

Edited for civility.

 

[trusetheeker]

So... much... wrong...

You are so right! Lets see...

Vaccines are the least profitable thing you can do about diseases. One day in a hospital bed costs more than a lifetime schedule of vaccines.

Wrong! You can only charge the sick for expensive and unnecessary hospital care (unnecessary in that if the medical profession actually taught people how to stay healthy and not interfere with their health right from birth, they would only need care in event of trauma.) With vaccines you can charge for "preventative" treatment of the well and, for those in the know, you get to charge them again when they get sick from the effects of the cumulative vaccine poisonings.

Medical procedures let us live longer and more healthily, which is the opposite of tending toward extinction.

Wrong! When you poison the well to keep them well (vaccines) and poison the sick to make them better (all other allopathic treatments,) the well and the sick just get worse.

The idea that we could overpopulate the planet and then wipe ourselves out is both stupid and irrelevant.

In that case, why did you bring it up? It's nothing to do with my point.

Since when has eating meat been something an omnivorous animal should avoid outright? Humans have eaten meat for long over a hundred thousand years. Primates have been eating meat for millions of years. Where's the problem?

The problem is that we are not omnivores. We are frugivores and our ability to survive on meat, dairy, grain and starch is not the same as being able to thrive on them. Eating these latter foods is known as a compromise diet and at some time in our history, surviving must have required making this compromise. The time has come to return to our health-promoting, species-correct diet and that will be easier to do when the medical, pharmaceutical and government cartel stop enriching themselves on our ill-health.

In nature, carnivores tend to eat wild animals living according to their instinct and eating their natural diets and mostly (hopefully) free of human pollutions. Humans tend to eat domesticated animals, reared in unhealthy and stressful industrial conditions on unnatural grain diets plus a host of medicines and chemicals. The resulting meat and byproducts are then chemically embalmed before being consumed.

Compare the lifespan and health of predominantly meat-eating westerners with that of the predominantly veg-eating asian peoples for an example of how much difference it can make.

No one supports eating denatured food. The very purpose of denaturing something is to prevent people from eating it.

Ye know not of what ye speak. Nature provided us with food ready to eat straight from the plant. If we take those foods and cook them, we denature them. If we cook other plants such as the potato that we're not designed to eat and cook it to make it digestible, we get an additional food source but most of what we hoped to gain from it winds up denatured. Denatured foods and inappropriate foods increase the burden on our digestion system and our elimination systems and the high-fat, high-cholesterol, high-protein diet results in the myriad diseases of civilization.

 

[trusetheeker]

I have a life, so just post the link of where those documents are located. I have no interest in spending four hours watching an online video. I can see why you Wakefield fanboys would do it, but just cut to the chase and list the evidence.

Sorry, Chris. It should have been obvious to you that my post was intended for people who have an interest in the truth and therefore would like to hear both sides of the story. There is no list to provide, only the documentary for those who wish to hear it.

I am still waiting for what evidence Wakefield used to suggest to parents that they should use separate measles, mumps and rubella vaccines, even though there was nothing in the paper to suggest there was a problem (in any of the up to three kinds of MMR vaccines).

You are a very patient person. I admire that. I certainly hope that you're not waiting for me to provide anything to you.

Wouldn't it be better to prevent measles than to treat it with some kind of concoction he and Fudenberg dreamed up? Could you please show us the papers on PubMed that shows the patented version of transfer factor treats measles?

No, it would be far better to leave nature to it's course instead of thinking that you know better, especially when you don't. Just like the medical profession, you either have ignored the centuries of evidence showing that disease is nature's way of curing the body of toxicosis and restoring homeostasis. Doctors attempt to cure the cure and in so doing prevent the body from expelling the life-threatening toxins but that's not important because the doctor can say "I cured you" and charge his poor patient for the benefit.

As for your PubMed papers, I've already told you how much weight they carry with me.

 

[trusetheeker]

How positively absurd. You can't make this work unless it is a vast global conspiracy.

Este, Do we have to do a course in Conspiracy 101? You don't need a vast global conspiracy. You just need enough brainwashed sheep who follow the herd doing as they're told. Very few people actually need to know that it's all about the money. The people who do question and try to buck the system are automatically ostracized by the sheep and fail to receive support from others who aren't willing to lose their lucrative positions for the sake of principle. The ranks of both sheep and heretics are made of honest, hard-working people who are doing what they think is best for their community and profession.

Consider that many of these people uncovered the truth about cancer, heart disease, diabetes, AIDS and probably all other major diseases decades ago and when they reported to the various medical associations, it fell on deaf ears.

If you go to PubMed and type in "vaccine adverse reactions", I even did it for you. What do you see? Over 3K studies, most in reputable journals that describe the complications from vaccines. Corporate funds? You don't really know about granting agencies do you? The vast majority are from government, i.e. taxpayer funded and charitable trusts. Now what is more likely, a handful of cranks who see a cottage industry in "vaccine damage" because not a single one of them is doing it out of the kindness of their hearts now are they, or a vast global conspiracy involving every public health organisation, government, physician and scientist? Name a single, reputable scientist who has been ostracised or committed career suicide by "revealing" vaccine complications.

Forgive me for not going through all 3k but from a quick sampling, I found only favorable conclusions. Statistically, that implies that only favorable reports made it past the censors.

In this Cochrane Library publication the authors felt the need to add this warning:

WARNING:
This review includes 15 out of 36 trials funded by industry (four had no funding declaration). An earlier systematic review of 274 influenza vaccine studies published up to 2007 found industry funded studies were published in more prestigious journals and cited more than other studies independently from methodological quality and size. Studies funded from public sources were significantly less likely to report conclusions favorable to the vaccines. The review showed that reliable evidence on influenza vaccines is thin but there is evidence of widespread manipulation of conclusions and spurious notoriety of the studies. The content and conclusions of this review should be interpreted in light of this finding.

Phrases such as the following are hardly glowing praise:

• "Studies funded from public sources were significantly less likely to report conclusions favorable to the vaccines",
• "reliable evidence on influenza vaccines is thin"
• "widespread manipulation of conclusions"
• "spurious notoriety of the studies"

Name a single, reputable scientist who has been ostracised or committed career suicide by "revealing" vaccine complications.

Nice one, Este. By definition, all ostracised scientist will be disreputable so it's impossible to name one who is both ostracised and reputable?

Oh please, testimonials? Could you at least post her NVICP claim? That at least has some medical information. You can do that right?

Of course I would have her NVICP claim. Everybody sends me a copy. Get real!

Testimonials is all us common folk have. It's our way of trying to warn people not to trust the gods of medicine. Are doctors going to warn you that some people get incredibly ill after having this here vaccine and, although it's unlikely that this harmless vaccine could be the cause, you should at least consider the risk before blindly letting me violate your body's integrity? No, so get educated and make up your own mind based on facts, not trust and hype.

Denial, why am I not surprised? I linked to the .pdf of Wakefield's measles vaccine/therapeutic patent, not a single word has been altered. But go ahead and find your own copy and please report back with any anomalies. Also, please list Wakefield's qualifications in neurology, immunology and microbiology that would qualify him as an autism, vaccine and autism treatment expert. Also, what evidence do you have of Mr. Deer "playing loose with other evidence", preferably sans conspiracy.

Este

Perhaps I should find a list showing Wakefield's inability to collaborate with experts who have the skills and qualifications that he doesn't. It's always possible that he bought some textbooks on neurology, immunology and microbiology and was hoping to wing it!

And as for proof of Deer's reliability, listen to the documentary. You can do it during any lull in responding to us unscientific types.

 

[trusetheeker]

trusetheeker, what do you think of the autism studies done at the Royal Free between 1999 and 2003? The ones that were not done by Wakefield, even though he was asked to do them.

Haven't seen nor heard of them til you mentioned them and as such can offer no comment.

 

[trusetheeker]

I don't suppose you got evidence for any of the above. Until you do, you're just rambling. Sorry, but it's not working. You have to do much better.

No I don't. There are plenty of medical doctors and scientists who have and are saying the same thing. The late Dr. Robert Mendelsohn author of Confessions of a Medical Heretic said it all well enough but there's plenty more before and after him. Mendelsohn's mentioned at whale.to so I guess he doesn't count.

 

[Travis]

Why is it that the anti-vaccine nutjobs always have such a hard time understand the basics of how science works?

 

[Clayton Moore]

No I don't. There are plenty of medical doctors and scientists who have and are saying the same thing. The late Dr. Robert Mendelsohn author of Confessions of a Medical Heretic said it all well enough but there's plenty more before and after him. Mendelsohn's mentioned at whale.to so I guess he doesn't count.

You'll notice attempts of censorship by source ridicule is a fav weapon.

And yet the same naysayers manage to deign and debate aliens, moon landing and anything that is brought up. Does their time and energies have so little value that they can be diddled away?

 

[excaza]

Why is it that the anti-vaccine nutjobs always have such a hard time understand the basics of how science works?

It would be inconvenient otherwise.

 

[Chris Haynes]

Haven't seen nor heard of them til you mentioned them and as such can offer no comment.

Lancet. 1999 Jun 12;353(9169):2026-9.
Autism and measles, mumps, and rubella vaccine: no epidemiological evidence for a causal association.

BMJ. 2002 Feb 16;324(7334):393-6.
Measles, mumps, and rubella vaccination and bowel problems or developmental regression in children with autism: population study.

Arch Dis Child. 2003 Aug;88(8):666-70.
Prevalence of autism and parentally reported triggers in a north east London population.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

Testimonials is all us common folk have. It's our way of trying to warn people not to trust the gods of medicine. Are doctors going to warn you that some people get incredibly ill after having this here vaccine and, although it's unlikely that this harmless vaccine could be the cause, you should at least consider the risk before blindly letting me violate your body's integrity? No, so get educated and make up your own mind based on facts, not trust and hype.

I see a contradiction.

As for your point, no, I don't think vaccines should be optional, at least not the ones for critical illnesses such as polio. Yes, they occassionally hurt or even kill people. This goes for everything humans have created, from staircases to seat belts. Yet, I'm in favour of vaccinations for the same reason I'm in favour of seatbelt laws -- vaccines save far more people than they kill. Even if they did in fact somehow cause autism (or some other debilitating ailment) in some few unlucky kids, they'd still be a huge boon to humanity.

 

[trusetheeker]

Clayton,
I'd really appreciate to know if you think this outcome is preferrable to the (disputed and likely nonexistent) risk of a child getting autism from MMR.

Specifically, I think you need to understand that aside from the clinical problems of cases of mumps encephalitis and congenital rubella that would occur, and that not only were there at least 88 deaths from measles, but there will approximately also have been the following complications related to 200,000 clinical cases:

20,000 febrile convulsions
20,000 hospital admissions
10,000 cases of pneumonia
200 cases of measles encephalitis
10 cases of SSPE (a chronic, fatal form of encephalitis which only hits children later in life)

So apart from the deaths, this outbreak would cause hundreds of cases of persisting brain damage.

Congratulations are in order for you antivaxers.
I can see you all doing celebratory high fives at the death and destruction you wreak.

Edited by LashL: 

Edited for civility.

Incorrect, Deetee. All of the complications mentioned will be of iatrogenic causes. Measles is just one expression of the body's natural detoxification process and left to itself and pure water when desired, the patient will soon recover in better shape than before they went in. (Try this next time you get the flu and see for yourself.) Unfortunately, doctors who think they know better than Nature will attempt to control the fever, hindering or stopping the eliminative effort which in turn seriously endangers the organs and the organism. I'm not sure what other nonsense they do in the case of measles but the obvious results of their handiwork are reflected in your stats above. The unseen damage will manifest over the years as other "infectious" diseases or as chronic illness.

 

[Chris Haynes]

Sorry, Chris. It should have been obvious to you that my post was intended for people who have an interest in the truth and therefore would like to hear both sides of the story. There is no list to provide, only the documentary for those who wish to hear it.



You are a very patient person. I admire that. I certainly hope that you're not waiting for me to provide anything to you.


....

So you have nothing. That figures. So why should we care about your opinions, since you have no real facts?