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Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

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And achieve what, exactly? Off the top of my head, most Holocaust movies refer to the gas chambers — Schindler's List, for one — but only one film I'm familiar with actually depicts them, and that's Uwe Boll's Auschwitz, which came out last year. Boll is a horror director. Nobody else would touch something as disturbing, material-wise. At least as far as I know.

Oh, just remembered that Errol Morris, who is, after Michael Moore, probably the most successful documentary filmmaker working, made a doc about Leuchter that deals with the gas chambers extensively.

These arn't movies but I remember two mini-series that depicted the gas chambers in operation. The 1970's mini-series Holocaust, had a scene in which Euthanasea victims were gassed and later one of the main characters is followed into the chamber until you hear the pellets drop and then it cuts to commercial.

The mini-series War and Rememberance in the late 1980's followed one of characters into the gas chamber and sadly did not cut away in a rather disturbing example of violence porn. Even included his cremation in the ovens.
 
And achieve what, exactly? Off the top of my head, most Holocaust movies refer to the gas chambers — Schindler's List, for one — but only one film I'm familiar with actually depicts them, and that's Uwe Boll's Auschwitz, which came out last year. Boll is a horror director. Nobody else would touch something as disturbing, material-wise. At least as far as I know.

Oh, just remembered that Errol Morris, who is, after Michael Moore, probably the most successful documentary filmmaker working, made a doc about Leuchter that deals with the gas chambers extensively.
The Grey Zone if I remember correctly, has a graphic gassing and a graphic cremation scene in it. Come to think of it, it must have a graphic gassing scene, as part of the plot is one girl barely surviving the gas.
 
These arn't movies but I remember two mini-series that depicted the gas chambers in operation. The 1970's mini-series Holocaust, had a scene in which Euthanasea victims were gassed and later one of the main characters is followed into the chamber until you hear the pellets drop and then it cuts to commercial.

The mini-series War and Rememberance in the late 1980's followed one of characters into the gas chamber and sadly did not cut away in a rather disturbing example of violence porn. Even included his cremation in the ovens.

Please explain how pellets could be or should be heard to drop?
 
For his project investigating "an historian who endorses ANY specific detail found in ANY specific holocaust survivor or perpetrator testimony so we can see what such an 'endorsement' looks like," Dogzilla's would do well to add to his list of examples not commented upon Gideon Greif's essay on his interviews of survivors of the Birkenau Sonderkommando, of which unfortunately only a small portion is available online: http://books.google.com/books?id=Ip...epage&q=greif "we wept without tears"&f=false.

What more is there to say about this? I made a straightforward request to see an example of a specific fact of the holocaust being endorsed by a historian so I could see what such an endorsement looks like. I thought it would be helpful because TSR had demanded evidence that babies being thrown on top of the heads of people packed into a gas chamber was a fact that had been endorsed by a historian. This wasn't the first time a challenge involving that level of minutia had been thrown down and it wont't be the last. In the past I have not been able to adequately respond to demands such as this so I wanted to be prepared lest I am faced with a similar challenge in the near future.

Several people have responded to my challenge. But nobody had been able to demonstrate a clear link between a certain fact and a historian's endorsement. The responses have all been more or less as specific as this latest suggestion to read Greif's essay on his interviews with the Birkinau SK.

I have been accusing you people of being unable to answer my challenge but I realized today that the failing is mine--not yours. I wanted to see what a historian endorsement looked like. Now I know. It looks like: "Gideon Greif's essay on his interviews of survivors of the Birkenau Sonderkommando" or "Klee, in "The Good Old Days" cites a report from Johannes Blaskowitz on the very first page of the main part of the book which speaks of the indiscriminate slaughter of Jews qua Jews."

You have answered the challenge. I know how to respond to similar challenges from the holocaust team in the future. Thank you very much. You have been most helpful.
 
Please explain how pellets could be or should be heard to drop?

Yay, another thread on why the movies didn't get it right.....

I've spent too much time at another site where the deniers actually have half a brain and some familiarity with the material. This.... this is beyond obtuse......
 
I know how to respond to similar challenges from the holocaust team in the future. Thank you very much. You have been most helpful.
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Are you going to finally get around to citing all of those NYT articles you claimed were written at the behest of the WJC in the early 1900's then?
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Care to try again using standard English, properly punctuated?

You made the suggestion -- either support it, or retract it: Which specific witnesses I mentioned experienced problems with their testicles?
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Lucas Clay in "Decision in Germany" talks about the rugged treatment of German POWs.
 
Lucas Clay in "Decision in Germany" talks about the rugged treatment of German POWs.
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Do you perhaps mean Lucius Clay? And which of the witnesses on that list does he name specifically as having lost use of their testicles?

On what page?

Did Clay personally examine these men to determine their physical health?
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What more is there to say about this? I made a straightforward request to see an example of a specific fact of the holocaust being endorsed by a historian so I could see what such an endorsement looks like. I thought it would be helpful because TSR had demanded evidence that babies being thrown on top of the heads of people packed into a gas chamber was a fact that had been endorsed by a historian. This wasn't the first time a challenge involving that level of minutia had been thrown down and it wont't be the last. In the past I have not been able to adequately respond to demands such as this so I wanted to be prepared lest I am faced with a similar challenge in the near future.

Several people have responded to my challenge. But nobody had been able to demonstrate a clear link between a certain fact and a historian's endorsement. The responses have all been more or less as specific as this latest suggestion to read Greif's essay on his interviews with the Birkinau SK.

I have been accusing you people of being unable to answer my challenge but I realized today that the failing is mine--not yours. I wanted to see what a historian endorsement looked like. Now I know. It looks like: "Gideon Greif's essay on his interviews of survivors of the Birkenau Sonderkommando" or "Klee, in "The Good Old Days" cites a report from Johannes Blaskowitz on the very first page of the main part of the book which speaks of the indiscriminate slaughter of Jews qua Jews."

You have answered the challenge. I know how to respond to similar challenges from the holocaust team in the future. Thank you very much. You have been most helpful.
What an absurd, delusional, and ultimately sad answer. You made a bizarre request and then, answered straightforwardly and a number of times, in various manners, you refused to engage a single specific fact offered.

Readers of the forum can check out previous replies to see what kind of faith you are operating with. Since (apparently) reading a chapter or essay with many, many facts "endorsed" and then sharing your reaction is beyond you, here is some of what has been posted in reply to the query and which you has ignored. If your question had been meaningful, or honest, you would have taken the first example and replied to it, instead of playing a guessing game - and fleeing from your own request, for the past week:

12/28/11:
Something about this can be said in regard to the action involving a particular Jewish girl in the pits of Ponar, the one who told Herman Kruk that a soldier had shot her in the leg and taken her shoes.

I know of no historian who subjects the Great Provocation shooting to the kind of detailed analysis you can find for Riga/Rumbula in Angrick & Klein. However, historians do make use of the sources we have been discussing, Kruk, Sakowicz, Jaeger, Dworzecki, and others.

For example, Arad, in Ponary Diary, 1941-1944, cited Trojak's testimony as recorded by Kruk, but not that of Schloss. Years earlier, in his Ghetto in Flames, Arad described the Great Provocation action in more detail: According to Arad, the few survivors, including Trojak and Schloss, were taken to the Jewish hospital on Zawalna Street in Vilna. There, they got medical care and told their version of events. Arad cited the diaries of Kruk and Kaczerginski and Dworzecki's postwar trial testimony. Some of the details common to the different survivors' accounts which Arad mentioned were roundup after Great Provocation, transport to Ponar by way of Lukiszki Prison, groups of ten led to killing pits, victims blindfolded, Lithuanian shooters, survivors all shot at day's end. He did not go into more detail about the mechanics of the shootings or what the victims said they experienced. There is much more, in fact, that Arad could have mentioned in these testimonies, many details, including who the victims were, how the roundups were carried out, the nature of the wounds, the command structure at the killing site, orders to disrobe, theft of property by the shooters, etc.

Arad did explain that doctors at the hospital were the first to hear the survivors' reports and that the reports were kept secret for fear that if the Germans discovered the survivors, they would be seized and returned to Ponar for killing. Word spread anyway, according to Dina Porat in her biography of Abba Kovner, which presumably put the survivors at risk.

Arad also quoted at length from Katz's later testimony (citing Korzcak's diary). And Porat, in her biography of Kovner, mentioned testimonies given by Trojak and Katz, the former to Kovner among others: "Members of the various movements met six other survivors in the ghetto hospital and methodically wrote down there stories and found them almost identical. . . ." (There is an error in this sentence in that the ghetto was not established until 2 days later.)

12/30/11:
Leaving aside the odd notion that historians endorse testimonies, Blaskowitz's note dated February 1940 (Dogzilla is apparently allergic to actually reading and discussing documents) explains the officer's approval of German anti-partisan operations - but then makes the point that "there is a danger emerging" from the conduct of the Germans (EGs) toward the Polish population, a danger of atrocities undermining the very operations of which Blaskowitz approved.

Blaskowitz specifies his concern as follows:

- "It is wholly misguided to slaughter 10,000 Jews and Poles as is happening at the moment"; the note doesn't say how Blaskowitz knows about this slaughter - only that the slaughter, with at least 10,000 Polish and Jewish victims, is occurring and is not a positive development

- the slaughter has certain negative effects: 1) fueling Allied propaganda, which he describes says had "hitherto covered only a fraction of what has actually occurred," 2) stirring, because of the public nature of the atrocities, "religious Poles" to view Germans with "disgust" and to develop "a great sense of pity for the Jewish population," 3) making the tasks of the Wehrmacht more difficult as Poles lost respect for the Germans, and 4) causing "the worst damage," namely demoralization of the German troops, which Blaskowitz described as "the tremendous brutalization and moral depravity, which is spreading among precious German manpower, like an epidemic"

- specific criticism of "high-ranking SS and police officials" who "openly praise acts of violence and brutality"

To make clear the silly vapidity of Dogzilla's game with this - after all he had stated
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Now, all you need to do is find an historian who endorses ANY specific detail found in ANY specific holocaust survivor or perpetrator testimony so we can see what such an "endorsement" looks like.
TSR was not the only person to reply with a specific example. Earlier (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php...postcount=8603), I also replied to this bizarre, uninformed "challenge" in terms of the ongoing discussion of Ponar executions, mentioning several testimonies used by Arad and such specific details in these testimonies as names of some survivors, where survivors were taken, how people learned of survivor experiences, how victims were rounded up in Vilna and how they were taken to Ponar, the killing process, who commanded the executions and who carried them out, and so on.

Since he is neither interested in nor knowledgeable about open-air shootings - his ignorance however not keeping him from making categorical statements and engaging in blanket denial - Dogzilla hasn't come to grips with either Blaskowitz's readily available notes on Poland or survivor, perpetrator (and bystander) sources for open-air shootings in Lithuania.

I can't discern rhyme or reason in Dogzilla's repetitions of "no, you didn't" when manifestly he was immediately presented with two historians, out of thousands of possible examples, making use of witness testimony to present or construct their understanding of events. Perhaps Dogzilla has some private meaning for such words as endorse, historian, detail, and testimony. It is hard to fathom where he thinks he is going.

1/1/12:
Dogzilla of course can find many examples of a

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historian who endorses ANY specific detail found in ANY specific holocaust survivor or perpetrator testimony so we can see what such an "endorsement" looks like
in the critique linked to in my signature. I will highlight one example of weighing and comparing testimonies which can be found on pp.235-6, footnote 451. It discusses whether or not Trawniki auxiliaries took part in the mass executions at Poniatowa during Operation 'Erntefest' in November 1943.

This section was written by me, and I am a historian, so it irrefutably qualifies.

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There are contradictory testimonies regarding the presence of Trawnikis in the sentry screens surrounding the execution sites at Poniatowa and Trawniki. According to one SS NCO at Poniatowa, none were present. Vernehmungsniederschrift Stephan Baltzer, 14.4.1970, StA Hamburg 147 Js 43/69, Bd.85, p.16115. According to one Trawniki also stationed at Poniatowa, the shooting was done by Germans while the Trawniki guards remained at their posts around the camp. Protokol doprosa, Ivan Vasilevich Lukanyuk, 12.4.1948, ASBU Ivano-Frankivsk 5072-2123, pp.10-22. However, a rare survivor testimony from the same camp suggests that Trawnikis were involved in rousting Jews from hiding places in the barracks. Andrzej Żbikowski, ‘Texts Buried in Oblivion. Testimonies of Two Refugees from the Mass Grave at Poniatowa’, Holocaust. Studies and Materials, 1/2009, pp.76-102, here p.89. At Dorohucza, the camp was surrounded by a police unit who demanded that all Germans as well as Ukrainians surrender their weapons while the inmates were rounded up. The use of troops who had had no personal contact with the inmates was thus evidently a deliberate strategy.Cf. Vernehmung Robert Jührs, 13.10.1961,BAL B162/208 AR-Z 252/59, Bd.8, pp.1486-7. Jührs had previously served at Belzec.
The preceding and ensuing pages (pp.233-237) give many more sources on the context for 'Erntefest'. Indeed I cite from materials taken from seven different archives just on the direct circumstances of 'Erntefest' and another two archives on the context. Yet this was just a brief sketch; the most comprehensive account of 'Erntefest' is an edited collection that is 500 pages long.

The footnote summary was also brief; and that highlights something which may not have occurred to Dogzilla, which is that many issues cannot be explored in exhaustive detail or resolved once and for all in the space of even a lengthy text. There are dozens of other relevant testimonies to the issue at stake; they were not cited for space reasons. The reason to discuss this at all was because of the oddity of the Nazis moving six full battalions of police troops into the Lublin district to carry out the mass executions when they had several battalion equivalents of Trawnikis already in place. Juehrs' testimony from Dorohucza confirms one common sense inference why they did this, i.e. to use troops that had not hitherto guarded the victims.

Another example, from p.174, also written by me. This example shows how the initial phase of Aktion Reinhard was evidently conceived by the SS as a limited action. To support this point I make note of

a) how few personnel from T4 compared to the total number of T4 personnel were sent to Lublin at first
b) a contemporary document which confirms this in writing
c) two testimonies, cited indirectly in this case, but with direct citations for corroboration, speaking of an initially limited program:

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The more striking point is the initially relatively small size of the T4 contingent assigned to Belzec and its progressive reinforcement in the spring of 1942 after the operation was expanded. As Victor Brack later wrote to Himmler on June 23, 1942, “in accordance with my orders from Reichsleiter Bouhler, I have long ago put at Brigadeführer Globocnik’s disposal part of my manpower to aid him in carrying out his special mission (Sonderauftrag). Upon his renewed request, I have now transferred to him additional personnel.”[1]

The evidence examined so far points to the interpretation that Belzec, soon to be joined by Sobibor, were intended to carry out what was still a relatively limited killing program. Indeed, Adolf Eichmann later testified that Globocnik had at first been authorised to kill around 100,000 people, and then secured a further authorisation to murder another 150 to 250,000 from Heydrich.[2] Josef Oberhauser similarly testified that at first:[3]
only Jews unfit for work from various ghettos were to be liquidated. There was not yet any talk of a grand-scale extermination action. I learned of the plan to systematically exterminate the Jews when Brack went to Globocnik in Lublin in April or May 1942 and told him that the former members of Aktion T4 would be placed at his disposal for the carrying out of the extermination of the Jews

[1] Brack an Himmler, 23.6.1942, BA NS19/1583, p.16, also NO-205; our emphases.

[2] Longerich, Holocaust, p.331.

[3] Pohl, Judenpolitik, pp.125-6, citing Vernehmung. Oberhauser, 10.11.1964, Oberhauser Bd. XV, Bl. 2918-20 (StA München 1 110 Ks 3/64); a similar description of Brack’s visit is in Vernehmung Josef Oberhauser, 14.12.1962, BAL B162/208 AR-Z 252/59, Bd. 9, p.1681ff, also excerpted in Klee, The Good Old Days, p.229.

I discuss Brack's letter to Himmler further on pp.203-4, quoting it in full and noting how the document cannot be read as indicating anything other than a plan of systematic mass murder as of June 1942, and cite a further, less well known document corroborating the use of T4 personnel to achieve this goal. The preceding and subsequent pages show how in comparison to spring 1942, during June-August 1942 a demonstrable extension and acceleration of the killing program occurred.

1/1/12:
What a pile of gibberish. Now your objection is that TSR didn't cite Blaskowitz's note to your liking. Problem is that no matter how he referred to it, at what summary level, not typing the whole thing out (and not itemizing major details as I did, which you are ignoring), no matter how he referred you to it in this thread, the note says what it says and it is the noted which appears in Klee's book as an example of German atrocities including "misguided slaughter" of Polish Jews.

Crap, TSR would have fulfilled the conditions of your challenge simply by citing and not commenting on the report because you asked to be pointed to
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an historian who endorses ANY specific detail found in ANY specific holocaust survivor or perpetrator testimony so we can see what such an "endorsement" looks like,
which TSR manifestly did. And the report can be read - and if you read it, you can try to explain to an increasingly puzzled readership just what the heck you think you're accomplishing.

By the way, here is much of the Blaskowitz note, copied from AHF, not all that was reproduced in Klee, but 90% of what he included in his book:

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It is misguided to slaughter tens of thousands of Jews and Poles as is happening at present; because, in view of the huge population neither the concept of a Polish State nor the Jews will be eliminated by doing so. On the contrary, the way in which this slaughter is being carried out is causing great damage; it is complicating the problems and making them much more dangerous than they would have been with a considered and systematic approach. The consequences are:

(a) Enemy propaganda is provided with material which could nowhere have been more effectively devised. It is true that what the foreign radio stations have broad-cast so far is only a tiny fraction of what has happened in reality. But we must reckon that the clamour of the outside world will continually increase and cause great political damage, particularly since the atrocities have actually occurred and cannot be disproved.

(b) The acts of violence against the Jews which occur in full view of the public inspire among the religious Poles not only deep disgust but also great pity for the Jewish population, to which up to now the Poles were more or less hostile. In a very short time we shall reach the point at which our arch-enemies in the eastern sphere—the Pole and the Jew, who in addition will receive the particular support of the Catholic Church—will, in their hatred against their tormentors, combine against Germany right along the line.

(c) The role of the armed forces, who are compelled impotently to watch this crime and whose reputation, particularly with the Polish population, suffers irreparable harm, need not be referred to again.

(d) But the worst damage which will accrue to the German nation from the present situation is the brutalization and moral debasement which, in a very short time, will spread like a plague among valuable German manpower.

If high officials of the SS and police demand acts of violence and brutality and praise them publicly, then in a very short time we shall be faced with the rule of the thug. Like-minded people and those with warped characters will very soon come together so that, as is now the case in Poland, they can give full expression to their animal and pathological instincts. It is hardly possible to keep them any longer in check, since they can well believe themselves officially authorized and justified in committing any act of cruelty.

The only way of resisting this epidemic is to subordinate those who are guilty and their followers to the military leadership and courts as quickly as possible.
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=142303

FYI in his biographical reference at the end of his book, Klee indicated why Blaskowitz's note was included, describing it as one of "two memoranda on atrocities of SS and police in Poland," which Blaskowtiz wrote as leader of 8th Army in Poland, his complaints causing him to be removed on occasions from his positions.

So now you have 1) Blaskowitz's note, 2) a great number of references and summary statements on the GP massacre at Ponar, 3) Nick's two examples, 4) Angrick & Klein's chapter, and 5) three or four other examples I referred you to from discussions on this thread. My only question is what you will do to keep dodging.

. . . nobody had been able to demonstrate a clear link between a certain fact and a historian's endorsement. . . .
While this is palpably untrue - someone could count the sourced details used by historians in the examples above - you are correct in part that the fault for this discussion aborting s yours. A few of us have provided examples of a number of details used by historians. These haven't satisfied you for reasons you cannot articulate. I don't think any of us really knows what you mean by "endorsement" - and I don't think you do either. I took it to mean that a historian had studied sources and had decided that certain details in them were corroborated so he or she could use of them in a historical work. Still, you come across mainly as disappointed that you were given a lot to reply to - and thus resorted to quibbling so as to avoid making a reply.

At this point, I don't expect a responsive post from you on your own challenge. I have posted a sampling of specific replies you were given not for your benefit but so that neutral readers could see what hollow and specious claims your latest demurral is based on: Revisionism in action seems to be balderdash and piffle.
 
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Lucas Clay in "Decision in Germany" talks about the rugged treatment of German POWs.
We need more than this. First of all, a correct name. Second, a reference to what the man said. Third, specifics about the treatment. Fourth, the impact of the so-called rough treatment on the individuals we are discussing. Fifth, how the so-called rough treatment caused these specific individuals to testify differently than they wanted to.
 
"Night" is self-debunking not for 3 reasons as I stated earlier, but for 6 - the additional three are as follows -

Er... could you explain how these six "reasons" indicate that it's a hoax ? I don't see it, but I'm sure you'll clarify that as soon as you're back from suspension.
 
What I don't understand is why you think that everything in the world has changed, and you can get away with it this time. The Jews have always paid, well maybe not always, but frequently paid for the trouble they have created, so, your confidence seems wildly misplaced to me.

Strike my previous request for an explanation on why those six reasons were good reasons to you. You have quite eloquently explained it here.

Edited by LashL: 
Edited breach of Rule 12.
 
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Did Saggy ever post the information about that book he "cited", like we asked him to?
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Not before he got suspended, and likely not after he comes back -- this *is* Saggs, after all...
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