Why vegans are simply better people

[joolz]

The OP states that producing battery farmed eggs, necessiatate de-beaking the Chickens. I have visited three battery farms in my time (bloody awfull places to be avoided) and have seen this to be false. How on earth would they eat?
De-beaking would never succeed the Chickens would have to suck-seed for success.

I like the pun but on a serious note, I usually 'live and let live' when it comes to meat eaters vs veggies, but I will speak out when wrong info is put in front of me. I've hidden some of my reply as some people choose not to know.

Three factory farms in one country is not sufficient data to state that the de-beaking statement is is false.

You also imply that battery farmers would care about the effect on the chickens and whether they can eat or not. 'Compassionate battery farmer' is an oxymoron.

A UK ban was due to come into force on some types of chicken mutilation this year but, basically de-beaking still goes on in many countries. I think turkeys are also debeaked in the USA. There are machines for it, the cut is not tailored to each bird and it is generally done by low paid, unskilled workers, so some birds bleed and it makes it painful for them to eat.

Battery managers do it to stop birds pecking each other, which they would normally do when placed in such a confined space with other birds. The number of birds lost because they can't eat because of the pain is less than those that would be lost in a battery farm without debeaking, the managers do their sums and the balance sheet wins.

In the USA Timothy Cummings, DVM, Mississippi State University wants to call it ‘beak conditioning’ instead of 'de-beaking'. He also said in 2007 “Words like debeaking, hanging and detoeing used in the poultry industry give extra fodder to groups that seek its destruction.” Wonder why eh?

People are free to make their own choices about what they eat, but AgriBusiness likes euphemisms as they cover up what's really happening and keep people in the dark.

cheerz

joolz

 

[Skeptical Greg]

The OP states that producing battery farmed eggs, necessiatate de-beaking the Chickens. I have visited three battery farms in my time (bloody awfull places to be avoided) and have seen this to be false. How on earth would they eat?
De-beaking would never succeed the Chickens would have to suck-seed for success.

De-beaking doesn't involve removing the whole beak; just the pointy part on the end..
You can probably find a video somewhere that illustrates the process..

( Not that I think it's an acceptable practice... )

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

Only in that most narrow way it would. Unfortunately for the OP, people are not so easily measured.

Who is a "better" person ...?

• the vegan who uses porn, or the meat-eater who doesn't
  
• the vegan who drives while talking on the phone, or the meat-eater who always stops to make a call
  
• the vegan who's cheated on their spouse, or the meat-eater who's remained faithful

This seems to me to be pure sophistry. By using the same method I can argue than an axe murderer is "not so easily measured", because what if the axe murderer cures cancer and brings about world peace, and the person who isn't an axe murderer is a paedophile who writes Twilight fanfic?

The obvious intention of the question is whether all else being equal it's morally better to be a vegan, or a non-axe-murderer, or whatever.

 

[citizenzen]

The obvious intention of the question is whether all else being equal it's morally better to be a vegan, or a non-axe-murderer, or whatever.

You complain about sophistry, but then casually toss off "all else being equal".

I'd like to know what formula you've used to equate one's morality.

It's something that I'm trying to point out is not so easily quantified.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

You complain about sophistry, but then casually toss off "all else being equal".

I'd like to know what formula you've used to equate one's morality.

The whole point of stating "all else being equal" is to avoid needing such a formula. You just say "Okay, suppose two people are identical in all morally relevant aspects except that one is a vegan and one eats lots of meat, what can we say about these people?".

It's something that I'm trying to point out is not so easily quantified.

It seems to me that you're trying to obfuscate the issue.

 

[learner]

I like the pun but on a serious note, I usually 'live and let live' when it comes to meat eaters vs veggies, but I will speak out when wrong info is put in front of me. I've hidden some of my reply as some people choose not to know.

Three factory farms in one country is not sufficient data to state that the de-beaking statement is is false.

You also imply that battery farmers would care about the effect on the chickens and whether they can eat or not. 'Compassionate battery farmer' is an oxymoron.

A UK ban was due to come into force on some types of chicken mutilation this year but, basically de-beaking still goes on in many countries. I think turkeys are also debeaked in the USA. There are machines for it, the cut is not tailored to each bird and it is generally done by low paid, unskilled workers, so some birds bleed and it makes it painful for them to eat.

Battery managers do it to stop birds pecking each other, which they would normally do when placed in such a confined space with other birds. The number of birds lost because they can't eat because of the pain is less than those that would be lost in a battery farm without debeaking, the managers do their sums and the balance sheet wins.

In the USA Timothy Cummings, DVM, Mississippi State University wants to call it ‘beak conditioning’ instead of 'de-beaking'. He also said in 2007 “Words like debeaking, hanging and detoeing used in the poultry industry give extra fodder to groups that seek its destruction.” Wonder why eh?

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/545504ef2638b4aa9a.jpg[/qimg]

People are free to make their own choices about what they eat, but AgriBusiness likes euphemisms as they cover up what's really happening and keep people in the dark.

cheerz

joolz

Thanks, but I am already aware that they do not entirely de-beak chickens. I made light of the very notion.
As for me implying that battery farmers care for their Chickens, well, I don't see that in my post.
The visits I made to battery farms were for final confirmation that I would be ceasing to buy upwards of 10000 battery eggs per week. I used to sell them.

 

[citizenzen]

The whole point of stating "all else being equal" is to avoid needing such a formula. You just say "Okay, suppose two people are identical in all morally relevant aspects except that one is a vegan and one eats lots of meat, what can we say about these people?".

It seems to me that you're trying to obfuscate the issue.

Since I've already succumbed to sophistry, I might as well jump full on into reductio ad absurdum ...

All else being equal, the person who intentionally steps on one ant fewer than the other person is the more moral and better person.

I glad we took a moment to set these guidelines.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

Since I've already succumbed to sophistry, I might as well jump full on into reductio ad absurdum ...

All else being equal, the person who intentionally steps on one ant fewer than the other person is the more moral and better person.

I glad we took a moment to set these guidelines.

Okay, so now you've agreed to that, doesn't it follow that all else being equal a vegan is simply a better person than a meat eater, all else being equal, assuming that a vegan diet does actually cause less net animal suffering in the process of getting to their plate than a diet including meat?

I think killing a calf or a lamb or a chicken probably counts as more serious than stepping on an ant for most people, and that most meat eaters will probably eat more than one cow/chicken/lamb/whatever in their life. So if one ant is enough to make you morally inferior, a few hundred chickens and a few large mammals would have to do it.

 

[ZirconBlue]

It seems an odd treatment to me as I'd thought eating more beans would have had the effect of worsening flatulence Maybe that's why he didn't have many friends.

Yeah. That's why people didn't like Hitler.

Imo, empathy for cows can be eliminated/cured by spending 5 minutes in the presence of cows.

Seriously. "Highly evolved consciousness", my ass.

I don't eat bacon, I snort strips of it like cocaine.

Your cocaine comes in strips?

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

Seriously. "Highly evolved consciousness", my ass.

Stupid cows, we can do anything we like to them, they can't even use tools!

In my humble opinion Stomatopoda's opinion is full of it. I spent a few years on a hobby farm with a small herd of beef cattle and it hasn't "cured" me of empathy for cows.

 

[joolz]

Thanks, but I am already aware that they do not entirely de-beak chickens. I made light of the very notion.
As for me implying that battery farmers care for their Chickens, well, I don't see that in my post.
The visits I made to battery farms were for final confirmation that I would be ceasing to buy upwards of 10000 battery eggs per week. I used to sell them.

I think someone else posted about the % of debeaking.

I thought you were defending battery managers by saying you haven't seen de-beaking. I stand corrected as I know that defending/making a point doesn't automatically mean that you agree with it. I think the flippancy threw me a bit as it hit a nerve to ask how de-beaked birds can eat when I have seen film of de-beaking, and the after effects, and found it very upsetting seeing some of the birds trying to eat.

The info I posted was for others on the thread too as some people may not know that de-beaking goes on or what's involved. I disagree with the OP overall, but there are a few true facts in it and de-beaking was one of the few truths.

Thank you for stopping selling battery eggs, I wish that more people would be as aware of the products they sell.

cheerz

joolz

 

[citizenzen]

In my humble opinion Stomatopoda's opinion is full of it. I spent a few years on a hobby farm with a small herd of beef cattle and it hasn't "cured" me of empathy for cows.

I grew up raising cows. We slaughtered at least one a year and had all the beef a family of five could eat. I always felt empathy for the cows. They were all timid, gentle creatures.

The pigs on the other hand ...

 

[Complexity]

I think someone else posted about the % of debeaking.

For comparison, I'd like the men reading this to think about the % of penis amputation.

I'm not persuaded that that something under x% is acceptable but over x% is not.

 

[Travis]

I was intended to stay out of this thread since it was a cesspoll, but hell, I have to respond to...



There it is.

I've been in animal rights discussions for years. I think in pretty much every one of these threads, there's at least 8 people who comment "but I just love eating meat / I'm just not bothered by animal cruelty enough to stop loving bacon / mmmmmmmmm tortured baby cow / my culture approves of eating meat", really crass and unproductive comments. Not too often I get to see the exact same sentiment applied to human slavery. I picked up on the ironic mockery right away.

The reactions in that thread were absolutely surreal.

RandFan's recent thread on deriving an 'ought' from an 'is' was, while not being quite as funny, surreal too. Exact same people in that thread who argue against RandFan's position are the very first one's to say "well of course eating meat is ok, we're evolved omnivore's right?"

And at least you believe enough in your position to stick around and defend it. The OP, on the other hand, is somewhat missing.

 

[Legend]

Where is that from, anyway ?

I don't know. The trail is cold.

 

[ZirconBlue]

For comparison, I'd like the men reading this to think about the % of penis amputation.

I'm not persuaded that that something under x% is acceptable but over x% is not.

Well, based on the history of circumcision threads on this forum, it seems that there are indeed quite a few men who are ok with a certain % of the penis being cut off.

 

[Ron Swanson]

It's a relatively common term for the "juice" of a nut ie; coconut milk. Similar to "butter"; peanut "butter", almond "butter" sesame "butter" etc. It's a colloquialism.
I wouldn't try to read too much into this. "hamburger" isn't made of ham, why are they trying to make it seem like it's smoked pork? Do they want to make you think it's bacon?

Good ones! ... thanks!

 

[sgtbaker]

Now lets talk about meat eaters... snip

So you mind if I eat while you talk?

 

[citizenzen]

So you mind if I eat while you talk?

As a 20+ vegetarian I'm always amused by posts like yours and others who feel the need to [drool] over bacon or 'MMM' about the steak they'll have to eat for lunch just to piss us veg-heads off.

IMO, it's just immaturity ... indicating an inability to address an issue intellectually. It doesn't make you a worse person. But I do look forward to the day you folks improve your ability to debate.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

Why is your age important?