Ask Newt why he thinks atheists want Muslim terrorists to win.

[leftysergeant]

What do you need, a Koran cite?

You might also tell us which translation you are using. Yours seems a little flaky.

Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. If they attack you, then kill them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. (But if they desist in their unbelief, then don't kill them.) 2:191-2

Bloody marvelous. It looks like we are dealing with a graduate of the Sean Hannity School of Comparative Theology. You really should start with verse 190:"And fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you but be not aggressive. Surely, Allah loves not the aggressors." (Translation by Maulana Muhamma Ali 1917.) Whatever translation you are using is the only one I have seen that states that the kufir must give up their disbelief. It only requires that they cease from oppressing Islam or killing the Muslims.

Have no unbelieving friends. Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them. 4:89

THis is a greatly shortened translation. Again, referring to the Maulana Muhammad Ali translation:"They long that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved so that you might be on the same level. So take not from among them friends until they flee (their homes) in Allah's way. Then if they turn back (to hostility) sieze them and kill them wherever you find them and take no friend nor helper from among them."

This passage refers to dealing with vascillating hypocrites who fake conversion for whatever purposes of their own.

You really need to get a better translation of the Qur'an.

 

[A'isha]

You really should start with verse 190:"And fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you but be not aggressive. Surely, Allah loves not the aggressors." (Translation by Maulana Muhamma Ali 1917.) Whatever translation you are using is the only one I have seen that states that the kufir must give up their disbelief. It only requires that they cease from oppressing Islam or killing the Muslims.

Blanket interpretations like the above are just as misleading as the blanket interpretations made by mhaze.

 

[leftysergeant]

Blanket interpretations like the above are just as misleading as the blanket interpretations made by mhaze.

Not a bit of it. There is no blanket requirement to convert by force or to kill those who offer no violence toward Muslims.

I see no other interpretation of 2:190 that allows aggression against those who have not initiated hostilities.

 

[Travis]

The fact that any oath may be affirmed, instead of sworn to, and that alternate books can be used instead of the bible, does not negate in one bit my point.

Actually it does. Unless your point was to make a completely unrelated nonsense claim.

You don't want references to god in public places. But our very oaths of public office are only affirmed by individual choice, not the mandated requirements by atheists. Individual choice is not a factor for the same athiests regarding various behaviors they would force on the public, is it?

What? Allowing people independent agency to believe what they want is what almost all atheists fight for.

I don't particularly care about who you know, but I do know one thing. Fundamentalist Muslims, by their basic belief set, want to kill you, the athiest. Fundamentalist Christians, or any other type of Christian, do not want to kill you.

see above...

The only thing keeping fundamentalist Christians from opening up death camps are the laws established to try and keep religion out of government.


I'm still waiting for you to provide evidence that atheists have any preference for Islam over Christianity.

 

[mhaze]

No, you're more than welcome to interpret the Qur'an for yourself.

However, if you want to interpret the Qur'an for Muslims (ie, what it says regarding what Muslims should believe and what Muslims should do, such that your interpretation can be used as a guide for their behavior and beliefs), then there are a few teeny-tiny prerequisites you haven't met yet...

Yes, actually you are affirming the statement that I made regarding your opinion, as you stated here:

And frankly, it doesn't matter what you think you can quote the Qur'an to mean. Your credentials as a mufassir are rather lacking.

And that's not even getting into the books of Sayd Qutb and what they imply for those who believe them.

You can go lecture someone somewhere who will believe your crap, but it's not going to be on a forum dominated by athiests and non-believers.

 

[mhaze]

Actually it does. Unless your point was to make a completely unrelated nonsense claim.
.....

No, what I said was correct. There is no case of "forced school prayer", there was always the ability to opt out. Just as someone going for political office could opt out.

 

[mhaze]

....The only thing keeping fundamentalist Christians from opening up death camps are the laws established to try and keep religion out of government......

If you believe that, my friend, nothing I say or nothing you hear is going to help you.

 

[leftysergeant]

No, what I said was correct. There is no case of "forced school prayer", there was always the ability to opt out. Just as someone going for political office could opt out.

Total crap. It was a part of the school day when I was in grade school. I even got lectured when, as my turn to lead the prayer came up, for not including "In Jesus' name."

Even if it is not school policy, what is life going to be like for the kid who does try to opt out in a redneck, fundy community?

 

[A'isha]

If you believe that, my friend, nothing I say or nothing you hear is going to help you.

Oh really?

EDIT: This is the same bunch that Michelle Bachmann and Rick Perry have made nice with, by the way.

 

[leftysergeant]

Oh really?

Some of those same names come up in connection with the Air Force Academy. They and their uniformed followers need to go home, and I would prefer that it be without benefits.

 

[gnome]

Even if it's not forced prayer, it's funny how people who decide that giving one religion preferred treatment is just fine, change their tune when it's not their religion.

 

[Travis]

If you believe that, my friend, nothing I say or nothing you hear is going to help you.

You could start by listing all the Christian theocracies that never had anyone killed for heresy, blasphemy or witchcraft.

Then you might follow it up by demonstrating that atheists somehow favor Muslims over Christians.

 

[mhaze]

Total crap. It was a part of the school day when I was in grade school. I even got lectured when, as my turn to lead the prayer came up, for not including "In Jesus' name."

Even if it is not school policy, what is life going to be like for the kid who does try to opt out in a redneck, fundy community?

Which is what I did, so don't lecture me.

 

[leftysergeant]

Which is what I did, so don't lecture me.

Now you have some explaining to do. In what fundie community was a child allowed to opt out without the fear of reprisals from the rednecks and Dominionists? What period of our history are you talking about? (I'm talking about 1952-60.)

 

[Robrob]

And I think there are any number of other verses that can be quoted that clearly show that the athiests are to be converted or killed, while the people of the book are to be protected if they submit.

And yes, I quoted a number of slightly divergent verses.

And yes, I'm talking about us "coffee drinkers".

Funny how willing you are to tell an actual Muslim what her religion believes or doesn't believe. When does she get to tell you what you believe?

 

[leftysergeant]

Yes, actually you are affirming the statement that I made regarding your opinion, as you stated here:

And frankly, it doesn't matter what you think you can quote the Qur'an to mean. Your credentials as a mufassir are rather lacking.

Nor have you any.

http://abuhatim.wordpress.com/2008/11/15/the-qualifications-of-a-muassir/

Total FAIL.

Mine are sketchy, but probably forgiveable in that I do not attempt to defame Islam by incomplete citations.

I am not an atheist, but I do take the side of those wrongly maligned for their beliefs.

I cannot extend that support to the Dominionists and revolutionaries like, for example, Harris Himes. He lies too much and seems more a servant of the Harlot than of Christ.

Same goes for Pam Geller and Terry Jones.

And that's not even getting into the books of Sayd Qutb and what they imply for those who believe them.

Not being part of the Qur'an nor the Ahaddith, how are his writings relevant here?

 

[leftysergeant]

Funny how willing you are to tell an actual Muslim what her religion believes or doesn't believe. When does she get to tell you what you believe?

Wait a minute. Who is a Muslim here?

And what is this business about "coffee drinkers?" mhaze uses it as if coffee were haram.

 

[Bri]

Even if it's not forced prayer, it's funny how people who decide that giving one religion preferred treatment is just fine, change their tune when it's not their religion.

It sounds like mhaze is upset because they no longer allow schools to force students to recite Christian prayers without opting out, whereas he would go ballistic if a school ever forced students to recite Muslim prayers, even if they could opt out.

Oddly, he believes that being in favor of not giving Christians preferential treatment over all other religions is an example of preferential treatment of Muslims over Christians.

-Bri

 

[Travis]

I'm still waiting for examples of atheists assisting Islamists.

 

[mhaze]

Funny how willing you are to tell an actual Muslim what her religion believes or doesn't believe. When does she get to tell you what you believe?

Actually they do that all the time. Just like you tell Christians what (YOU THINK) they believe.