Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

[Dogzilla]

I don't see anything in TSR's link that does not support his point.

I don't see anything in his link that provides information about how common it is to find hydrogen cyanide being used to fumigate houses in densely populated areas.

 

[Bluespaceoddity]

I don't see anything in his link that provides information about how common it is to find hydrogen cyanide being used to fumigate houses in densely populated areas.

I don't see anything in the link; http://www.fao.org/docrep/x5042e/x5042E0k.htm , that precludes use of Zyklon B to kill people in the gas chamber as operated in the building in the Auschwitz Stammlager between 1942 and 1944 sometimes referred to as Krema I.

Talking about links. It looks like I forgot to include this one; http://srs.ogs.nl/art/graffoto/lindeman.n.h.2008.jpg , here; http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=7822367#post7822367

 

[TSR]

What is the percentage of the total needs to be exceeded before the FAQ will have guidelines for the topic under consideration? Is it ten percent? Twenty percent?

,
Here's an idea: if you "think" that percentage is significant, why don't *you* come up with one, and then make a fact based argument that it isn't enough?

It was common, that's enough for me.

Oh. and FAO . Learn to read before spouting off.
,

Why don't you just admit that you didn't read the document before you submitted it as the answer to my question so you didn't know that it doesn't say anything about how common it is to find hydrogen cyanide being used to fumigate houses in densely populated areas?

,
Because I don't "admit" things you just made up. Tell us how common would be enough for you.
,

 

[TSR]

I don't know what they did to pressure Adenauer. I don't even know that they did. I'm relying on the word of the people who were not not Jewish who said they applied pressure.

,
So far, no one has used the word "pressure" but you...
,

They might be lying.

,
No, "they" aren't the ones lying...
,

It doesn't really matter how much or what type of pressure they applied. It might have been a friendly suggestion over a pint of beer. What matters is that the idea of people who never inflicted any injury giving money to people who never suffered any harm wasn't something the Germans came up with.

,
Of course, this assumes that your assertions about "never" are based in something other that your desperate need that it be so.

Those assertions aren't.
,

 

[TSR]

I don't see anything in his link that provides information about how common it is to find hydrogen cyanide being used to fumigate houses in densely populated areas.

,
So, tell us: why would the FAO spend the better part of a chapter discussing its use in those circumstances, if it was uncommon?


At what specific percentage of total fumigations does this use need to be for you to acknowledge its commonality?
,

 

[little grey rabbit]

Apparently I was wrong about the sheet mentioning the lack of a warning agent. It's been a while. But then again you should be able to find the parts of Peters' testimony where he states that Gerstein ordered that without warning agent. He told that


And I wonder what you make of this notice by Peters

you are either unaware or seem to be concealing that when Peters referred to reines blausaeuregas he meant pure cyanide not Zyklon B (the paragraph you omitted makes this distinction clear.

Peters varied his account markedly, there are numerous points of agreement between what Gerstein wrote and what he testified to - but whether this represents genuine correlation or simply Peters being pressured to confirm what Gerstein had said, I am not sure.

Of this we can be sure: Gerstein was by the time of his meeting with Peters a committed Resistance agent. We know this because he said he was in 1945, independently a report written in Feb 1943 has emerged

Killing Installations in Poland
[Tötungsanstalten in Polen47]
The description below, in all its atrocity, its incredible brutality and cruelty came to us from Poland, accompanied by the fervent prayer to inform humanity of it. A high-ranking German officer guarantees its veracity: he made his statements under affidavit, and asked that the following be published:

Following conversations I had with German officers who served in Poland and Russia, I heard the most fantastic horror stories. Having then received the notice of the sudden death of my institutionalized sister in law, I decided that I would have no respite until I knew what was true in these stories on the atrocities and the killings of institutionalizeded persons. All my efforts consisted of establishing contacts with high ranking individuals in the SS and to gain their complete trust. After months, I succeeded in visiting two of these so-called killing installations [Tötungsanstalten]. The first that I visited is located in Belsjek [sic] on the Lemberg-Lublin road; the second at Treblinka, about 80km north of Warsaw. There are still two other in Poland but I did not succeed in obtaining access to them.

The above-mentioned two installations [Anstalten] are located in a deserted region of forest and heather. Seen from the outside, they are no different from ordinary concentration camps. A wooden door with some kind of sign, ending by ‘heim’ gives no hint of the den of assassination.
....
Each installation keeps statistics of the number of killings [Tötungen]. Every day, in other words, every 24 hours, three or four killings[Tötungen] take place. This means that for the four installations [Anstalten], 8 000 to 9 000 deaths per day. In all, 6 million and a half people have already been killed in this way, including 4 million Jews and 2 and 1/2 “institutionalized individuals” or so-called “Deutschfeindlichen”. The program includes 16 million and a half people, in other words, all the Jews in the occupied territories and all the Polish and Czech intellectuals. In high places, there is currently an emphasis on rapidity and it is planned to use a more efficient method of killing. Cyanide gas has been suggested but apparently it has not been used yet, so the killing continues to take place in the cynical manner described above.
March 25, 1943

We also have his account of visiting the Vatican representative in Berlin (and being followed afterwards) and his account of a report to a Swedish diplomat in late 1942 - an account the Swedish diplomat emphatically confirmed.

It is in this light we need to view Gerstein's approach to Peters. Such as this

Gerstein received me with the information that he wanted some technical information from me. He told me that he had to make me promise that I would keep strictly quiet on the matter because it was a top secret matter. I answered that I knew such obligations already from other matters but I was quite sure I could keep the matter secret. He stressed the obligation for secrecy in this particular case, even stronger, and told me that the death penalty in this particular might be applied if I would not comply with the obligation for secrecy

Remember, Gerstein was Resistance - and if we believe your story gassings with Zyklon B had been going on for over a year at Auschwitz.

The question was then raised, what quantities would be necessary and during the whole conversation with Gerstein he didn’t mention any figures at all. He only said that, of course, he would only need a little. He said, however, that every month he wanted to have quite fresh material because every decomposition or every loss through leakage to the air should be avoided.
...
Therefore, he would inform me every month of the quantities needed, I tried to avoid that because I didn’t want to have a constant contact in that matter and suggested to him to give me a month’s figure in advance, and I told him it wouldn’t be important at all if he had a certain excess of material because then, the remaining material could be used for normal means for combating vermin which was also under him control. Then he let me confirm again that this zyklon without irritants could be used also like the other material for the decontamination of spaces and rooms and he then had the idea of say, “well in that case I will order a larger quantity right away, and thereby I will avoid the constant control of the main health directorat and I can afford to lay in a certain reserve, a certain stock."

We know that Gerstein did not use this stock for homicidal gassings, firstly because he said so in his statement and secondly because a letter survives which he wrote to Degesch in May 1944 stating the entire stock was unused. It seems quite implausible to suggest that Gerstein would have written this letter as some kind of a cover in 1944 - so we have no reason to doubt his 1945 statement firmly stating this stock was not used to gas people.

So the only stock of specially produced Zyklon B without warning agent was manufactured at the special behest of a member of the German resistance and not used to gas people. From May 1944 it seems that the wartime shortages dictated the complete removal of warning agent.

There seems every indication that Gerstein's stock was indeed independent of the HSP in Berlin (and his own special account), because the HSP ordered much higher quantities over this time period.

While Gerstein's motivations remain unclear, I think the most likely explanation for his special orders was in order to manufacture incriminating evidence - again in connection to his work for the Resistance. It is certainly consistent with how Dr Peters describes him.

 

[LemmyCaution]

I don't know what they did to pressure Adenauer. I don't even know that they did. I'm relying on the word of the people who were not not Jewish who said they applied pressure. They might be lying.

It doesn't really matter how much or what type of pressure they applied. It might have been a friendly suggestion over a pint of beer. What matters is that the idea of people who never inflicted any injury giving money to people who never suffered any harm wasn't something the Germans came up with.

I don't know . . . I don't even know . . . I'm relying on the word . . . They might be . . . It might have been . . . What matters is the idea . . .

Wow, that's an explanation that will convince . . . another rabid denier or two . . .

I hope everyone can see the double standard at play here.

 

[TheRedWorm]

I don't know . . . I don't even know . . . I'm relying on the word . . . They might be . . . It might have been . . . What matters is the idea . . .

Wow, that's an explanation that will convince . . . another rabid denier or two . . .

I hope everyone can see the double standard at play here.

To a denier, having double standards is a good thing: it means you have twice the standards of everyone else.

 

[David Swidler]

To a denier, having double standards is a good thing: it means you have twice the standards of everyone else.

Nominated for pith.

 

[Wroclaw]

Unless I'm mistaken, I don't think Gerstein ever implies that he destroyed every shipment of Zyklon-B destined for Auschwitz-Birkenau. In fact, everything we know about him suggests that such an action would have been the opposite of his typical job, which was requisitioning the stuff in the first place.

I suspect Bunny is quoting out of context.

 

[TheRedWorm]

Nominated for pith.

Thank you. Now I have to find who here originally said it and nominate them.

 

[Wroclaw]

Did a little digging, and Bunny is lying (surprise!). Gerstein specifically disposed of a large shipment of Zyklon-B that arrived in Berlin. He states below why he destroyed it:

Anfang 1944 nochmals sehr große Mengen Blausäure von mir verlangte für einen sehr dunklen Zweck. Er zeigte mir in der Kurfürstenstraße in Berlin einen Schuppen, in dem er die Blausäure zu lagern gedachte. Ich erklärte ihm darauf, daß ich dafür ausgeschlossenerweise die Verantwortung übernehmen könne. Es handelte sich um mehrere Waggons, genug, um viele Millionen Menschen damit umzubringen. Er sagte mir, daß er selbst noch nicht wisse, ob das Gift gebraucht würde, wann, für wen, auf welche Weise usw. Aber es müsse ständig verfügbar gehalten werden. Ich habe später oft an die Worte von Goebbels denken müssen. Ich kann mir denken, daß sie einen großen Teil des deutschen Volkes töten wollten, sicher einschließlich der Pfarrerschaft oder der mißliebigen Offiziere. Das sollte in einer Art Lesesälen oder Klubräumen geschehen, soviel entnahm ich den Fragen der technischen Durchführung, die Günther an mich richtete. Es kann auch sein, daß er die Fremdarbeiter umbringen sollte oder Kriegsgefangene - ich weiß es nicht. Auf jeden Fall richtete ich es so ein, daß die Blausäure sofort nach ihrer Ankunft in den beiden Konzentrationslagern Oranienburg und Auschwitz für irgendwelche Zwecke der Desinfektion verschwand.

You can read German, Bunny: Tell us all what the bolded text says?

 

[eerok]

Nominated for pith.

It's always a good time to pith off the Nazis.

 

[Wroclaw]

He doesn't say anything about underground vs not underground. The fact that he says what he says while cutting away to a farmhouse with children playing in the yard kinda makes my point.

Not really. He is nevertheless walking on the ruins of the gas chambers, which in the case of Krema II (where he is standing) was underground.

You can wiggle as much as you like on that point, but Krema II's gas chamber was underground.

 

[Dogzilla]

.
Which part of
are you having problems understanding?

Keep stamping your feet and flapping your arms, maybe CM and Saggs won't notice you are obviously avoiding an answer to the question you were put.

No one else has failed to note it.
.

The part about why having the irritant removed makes Zyklon B better for exterminating people is the part I'm having a problem with. There's the theory that the Nazis were trying to alleviate the Jews' suffering. For that theory to fly we need to believe that the concern for Jewish suffering was so great that the Nazis were willing to forsake all safety precautions the irritant provided when Zyklon B was used for non-homicidal purposes or we need to find evidence of both types of Zyklon B being shipped to the camp simultaneously.

Other than that, nobody has ever come up with any sort of coherent reason why the lack of the irritant has any meaning vis-a-vis extermination. I, of course, know the real reason but I keep asking because I like to watch people avoid the question like a plague.

And what question am I avoiding?

 

[Dogzilla]

I don't know . . . I don't even know . . . I'm relying on the word . . . They might be . . . It might have been . . . What matters is the idea . . .

Wow, that's an explanation that will convince . . . another rabid denier or two . . .

I hope everyone can see the double standard at play here.

Sorry if I'm being too tentative for you. I'd like to talk to Adenauer personally to ask him exactly what sort of pressure was applied but I couldn't get through to him. Without hearing his side of the story I'm going to have to rely on the first hand account of the affair I got from the Claims Conference. Unfortunately, given their record for telling the truth, I need to qualify any information they provide.

 

[eerok]

nobody has ever come up with any sort of coherent reason why the lack of the irritant has any meaning vis-a-vis extermination.

Why on earth would you want to add a warning irritant to gas you were exterminating people with, especially if you are exterminating a lot of people and you can therefore save a lot of money by keeping it simple?

Is that coherent enough for you?

 

[LemmyCaution]

Sorry if I'm being too tentative for you. I'd like to talk to Adenauer personally to ask him exactly what sort of pressure was applied but I couldn't get through to him. Without hearing his side of the story I'm going to have to rely on the first hand account of the affair I got from the Claims Conference. Unfortunately, given their record for telling the truth, I need to qualify any information they provide.

Not at all, you're being too stupid for words. Now, don't tell me you can't figure out why.

 

[little grey rabbit]

Why on earth would you want to add a warning irritant to gas you were exterminating people with, especially if you are exterminating a lot of people and you can therefore save a lot of money by keeping it simple?

Is that coherent enough for you?

So I will keep it coherent for you.
1. The only specially made orders that were made without warning irritant were requisitioned by a leading member of the German resistance - Kurt Gerstein.
2. These orders bypassed the normal channels of Zyklon B distribution - both the agents Testa or Heli but also the normal SS distribution channels
3. The bills for these orders were never paid - presumably because Gerstein was acting as a rogue agent and couldn't divert the necessary funds.
4. These special orders were "diverted" to normal disinfection - according to Gerstein.
5. These special orders (used for normal disinfection) were only a small proportion of the total deliveries to Auschwitz via the normal channels.
6. Equal proportions of these special orders went to Auschwitz and to Oranienburg (without significant homicidal gassings).

 

[Wroclaw]

So I will keep it coherent for you.
1. The only specially made orders that were made with warning irritant were requisitioned by a leading member of the German resistance - Kurt Gerstein.

That's only half the story — at most. To say Gerstein was a member of the resistance is not to also say he was the chief requisition officer for the Reich Office of Hygiene. For him not to have obeyed an order to order Zyklon-B without indicator might have compromised his cover.

2. These orders bypassed the normal channels of Zyklon B distribution - both the agents Testa or Heli but also the normal SS distribution channels

I haven't seen that proved yet, but I'm not sure it matters.

3. The bills for these orders were never paid - presumably because Gerstein was acting as a rogue agent and couldn't divert the necessary funds.

Absolutely unproved by you.

4. These special orders were "diverted" to normal disinfection - according to Gerstein.

False. Only a special order of Zyklon-B that he suspected would be used against German civilians was diverted. See that material I cited.

5. These special orders (used for normal disinfection) were only a small proportion of the total deliveries to Auschwitz via the normal channels.

Unproved assertion.

6. Equal proportions of these special orders went to Auschwitz and to Oranienburg (without significant homicidal gassings).

Well, one shipment did. That much we know.

I'm not sure why any of this matters. We know why the indicator was removed because Peters said so. And we know human beings were gassed with Zyklon B at Auschwitz.

So what do you think any of this proves?