Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

[Dogzilla]

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Here's an idea: if you "think" that percentage is significant, why don't *you* come up with one, and then make a fact based argument that it isn't enough?

It was common, that's enough for me.

Oh. and FAO . Learn to read before spouting off.
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Because I don't "admit" things you just made up. Tell us how common would be enough for you.
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You're the one who said that an unsealed wooden door would present no safety concerns if it were used as the door to a gas chamber that employs hydrogen cyanide as its killing agent because hydrogen cyanide gas is commonly used for fumigating single family dwellings in densely populated regions of the United States with nothing more than an ordinary tent covering the dwelling that is undergoing fumigation. It's your claim that hydrogen cyanide is commonly used for fumigating homes. You're the one who needs to tell us how common it is.

As a demonstration of common-holocaust-believer-on-the-street scholarship in action, you tell us that because there is an instruction manual on the internet that covers the basics of fumigation in general, subjecting single family dwellings to a poison that kills humans almost instantly for the extended period of time that is necessary to kill insects with nothing more than a canvas tent covering the dwelling is "common" practice. Tell you what: I'll concede your point if you can find ONE single example of a residential dwelling in a densely populated region of the United States that was subjected to treatment with Zyklon B (or a Zyklon B-like agent) with nothing more than an ordinary canvas fumigation tent to protect the surrounding environment. Double points if the cyanide gas has the warning agent removed.

 

[Dogzilla]

Why on earth would you want to add a warning irritant to gas you were exterminating people with, especially if you are exterminating a lot of people and you can therefore save a lot of money by keeping it simple?

Is that coherent enough for you?

The part in bold-face is why any warning agent might have been removed. As to the other part of your question, why would a warning agent be of any consequence when you're employing it on a group of people who are locked in a room and can do nothing to escape?

So far, 'alleviating the suffering of the Jews' is the best explanation any of you people can come up with. So I gotta ask: when did the Nazis start caring about the Jews? Did they have great concern for the Jews all along or did their concern for the Jews slowly evolve as a function of the exigencies of the war?

 

[TSR]

The part about why having the irritant removed makes Zyklon B better for exterminating people is the part I'm having a problem with. There's the theory that the Nazis were trying to alleviate the Jews' suffering. For that theory to fly we need to believe that the concern for Jewish suffering was so great that the Nazis were willing to forsake all safety precautions the irritant provided when Zyklon B was used for non-homicidal purposes or we need to find evidence of both types of Zyklon B being shipped to the camp simultaneously.

Other than that, nobody has ever come up with any sort of coherent reason why the lack of the irritant has any meaning vis-a-vis extermination. I, of course, know the real reason but I keep asking because I like to watch people avoid the question like a plague.

And what question am I avoiding?

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And who has advanced this theory? Why do you fixate on it rather than ones offered here?

And your attempts to ignore history are noted: Why did the Nazis want the irritant removed?

Which then leads us to your avoidance: why, if it was strictly a financial decision, was the irritant not removed from all shipments, worldwide? A lot of money to be saved there...
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[TSR]

Sorry if I'm being too tentative for you. I'd like to talk to Adenauer personally to ask him exactly what sort of pressure was applied but I couldn't get through to him.

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Of course, never having even tried makes this difficult.
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Without hearing his side of the story I'm going to have to rely on the first hand account of the affair I got from the Claims Conference.

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Which doesn't mention "pressure" at all...
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Unfortunately, given their record for telling the truth, I need to qualify any information they provide.

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Ah, so you'll accept what they said, except when they don't say what you want, in which case you feel free to lie about why you won't.

Or you could document why their record is suspect, which doesn't rely on your need to deny what they said...
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[TSR]

You're the one who said that an unsealed wooden door would present no safety concerns if it were used as the door to a gas chamber that employs hydrogen cyanide as its killing agent because hydrogen cyanide gas is commonly used for fumigating single family dwellings in densely populated regions of the United States with nothing more than an ordinary tent covering the dwelling that is undergoing fumigation. It's your claim that hydrogen cyanide is commonly used for fumigating homes. You're the one who needs to tell us how common it is.

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It's common enough for there to be guidelines for it.

If you don't feel that's common enough, please quantify what level would be, and objectively support it.
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As a demonstration of common-holocaust-believer-on-the-street scholarship in action, you tell us that because there is an instruction manual on the internet that covers the basics of fumigation in general,

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... and specifically talks about HCN, but don't let that stop your rant....
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subjecting single family dwellings to a poison that kills humans almost instantly for the extended period of time that is necessary to kill insects with nothing more than a canvas tent covering the dwelling is "common" practice.

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And it is. Your problem with reality is... ?
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Tell you what: I'll concede your point if you can find ONE single example of a residential dwelling in a densely populated region of the United States that was subjected to treatment with Zyklon B (or a Zyklon B-like agent) with nothing more than an ordinary canvas fumigation tent to protect the surrounding environment. Double points if the cyanide gas has the warning agent removed.

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Well since no one but the Nazis ever removed that agent, I will have to pass on the double.

But the picture posted was of an HCN fumigation -- feel free to cite the company itself denying this...
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[Clayton Moore]

The part in bold-face is why any warning agent might have been removed. As to the other part of your question, why would a warning agent be of any consequence when you're employing it on a group of people who are locked in a room and can do nothing to escape?

So far, 'alleviating the suffering of the Jews' is the best explanation any of you people can come up with. So I gotta ask: when did the Nazis start caring about the Jews? Did they have great concern for the Jews all along or did their concern for the Jews slowly evolve as a function of the exigencies of the war?

Thanks for the ten foot pole questions.

 

[Robrob]

Other than that, nobody has ever come up with any sort of coherent reason why the lack of the irritant has any meaning vis-a-vis extermination. I, of course, know the real reason but I keep asking because I like to watch people avoid the question like a plague.

The "irritant" is in the poison for the same reason we add a bad smell to propane gas. It's to alert you of an otherwise orderless danger.

The Nazis manufactured the poison gas without the oderant to not prematurely alert the people being murdered.

Really, how hard was that to figure out?

 

[Clayton Moore]

The "irritant" is in the poison for the same reason we add a bad smell to propane gas. It's to alert you of an otherwise orderless danger.

The Nazis manufactured the poison gas without the oderant to not prematurely alert the people being murdered.

Really, how hard was that to figure out?

The "irritant" is in the poison for the same reason we add a bad smell to propane gas. It's to alert the user of an otherwise orderless danger.

For 10 bonus points. Who were the users of the Gas?

 

[Robrob]

Once more for the slow ones in the audience; when you are using poison gas on a room full of people, you don't want them to realize there's a gas in the room until it's too late.

Rat bait tastes bad to prevent accidental poisoning. If you wanted to murder your spouse with it, the first thing you'd have to do is find some without the flavoring.

Why are the most obvious things always so hard for you?

 

[Clayton Moore]

Once more for the slow ones in the audience; when you are using poison gas on a room full of people, you don't want them to realize there's a gas in the room until it's too late.

Too late for what?

They were allegedly in a locked room and allegedly the mixture was poured into holes in the roof.

 

[Robrob]

Too late for what?

They were allegedly in a locked room and allegedly the mixture was poured into holes in the roof.

Yes because you really want the people you are gassing to figure out they are being gassed before it's too late to do anything.

Really, are you just pretending to be this way?

 

[Dogzilla]

.But the picture posted was of an HCN fumigation -- feel free to cite the company itself denying this...
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Sorry. It's your claim that was a house being fumigated with cyanide. You back it up.

 

[Dogzilla]

Once more for the slow ones in the audience; when you are using poison gas on a room full of people, you don't want them to realize there's a gas in the room until it's too late.

They're locked in the gas chamber. It's already too late for the people inside. If there was a warning agent, they would smell it at the same time they're breathing in cyanide gas. When that happens, they're going to be dying. So what's the advantage to not having the warning agent?

Why are the most obvious things always so hard for you?

I would ask the same of you.

 

[little grey rabbit]

That's only half the story — at most. To say Gerstein was a member of the resistance is not to also say he was the chief requisition officer for the Reich Office of Hygiene. For him not to have obeyed an order to order Zyklon-B without indicator might have compromised his cover.

To the best of my knowledge he was not the chief requisition officer for the Reich Office of Hygiene, rather he was Chef der Abteilung Gesundheitstechnik for the Hygiene-Institut der Waffen-SS. We don't know if he received an order to remove the warning agent from Zyklon because he provides no testimony on that point. Normally he appears not to be involved in Zyklon B ordering for the HSP since his G036 account was a special account set up under his private name. We know this firstly from Peters testimony at Nuremberg
That again I tried to contradict in view of our obligations towards Testa and Heli as main agents through whose hands all quantities of zyklon used for decontamination had to be used. Gerstein told me that he absolutely rejected the intervention of Testa and Heli and the rest was none of my business for what final purpose the individual deliveries were to be used. He said I didn’t have to worry about our contracts with Testa and Heli because he would give me the order to deliver these shipments within the scope of the top secret matter and that was a case of force majeur which would cover me at all times with regard to the contracts with Testa and Heli.

We also have the account books of the agent Heli that showed copious amounts were sent to the HSP

I haven't seen that proved yet, but I'm not sure it matters.

Well now you have. See above.

Absolutely unproved by you.

If I can refer you to account G036 you will see that as of 31.12.1944 there was mentioned as Zahlungsausfall the sum of 17,000 RM, it is true, however, that this account was credited with 2000 RM in the first month of 1944 for the delivery of 1440 kilograms of Zyklon B in the second half on 1943 - of which it appears 600 went to Auschwitz and 840 kilograms went to Oranienburg. Thus around 90% of the Gerstein private account remained unpaid. Furthermore if you read his testimony you will see this
The invoices [notas — sic] for this supply, altogether 2,175 kg.,
enough to kill several millions of men, I have on me. I had them written
in my name, for—as I said—discretion, in truth to be somewhat free
in the disposal and to be better able to divert the toxic acid.
I never paid the delivery.

False. Only a special order of Zyklon-B that he suspected would be used against German civilians was diverted. See that material I cited.

See the material you mis-cited. If you continue reading on it is quite clear that the material diverted to disinfection was his entire series of orders for 1944, ie 2,100 kilograms.
To use Text II of Gerstein's statement (Roques numbering)
But I thought later of the words of Goebbels "to close the doors
after them, if Nazism should never succeed." Perhaps they wanted to
kill a great part of the German people, perhaps the foreign workers,
perhaps the prisoners of war—I do not know! In any case, I diverted
the acid immediately after its arrival for disinfection duties. This was somewhat dangerous for me, but if anyone had asked me
where the toxic acid was, I would have replied: it was already in a
dangerous state of dissolution, and for that reason I had to use it up for
disinfection—I am sure that Guenther, son of the Rassen-Guenther,
to use his own words, had the order to obtain the acid for—eventually —killing millions of men, perhaps also in the concentration camps.
I have on me the invoices for 2,175 kg, but in truth it concerns about
8500 kgs, enough to kill 8 million men.

He is talking about his entire orders for 1944 (2175 kg) - the figure of 8500 kilograms is Gerstein's fantasy and nothing appears in G036 for 1944 apart from the invoices he presented to War Crimes prosecutors for 2175 kilograms.

Unproved assertion.

Well perhaps you will accept the word of the Frankfurt court
Nach den Feststellungen dieses Zeugen betrug der Gesamtumsatz der Testa an Zyklon B im Jahre 1942 79069,9 kg und der Gesamtumsatz im Jahre 1943 119.458 kg. Von den 79069,9 kg des Jahres 1942 gingen an den HSP 11.232 kg, an SS-Organisationen 15776,6 kg, an das KZ Auschwitz 7478,6 kg und an andere KZ 1.618 kg. Von den 119.458 kg. des Jahres 1943 gingen an den HSP 19.982 kg, an SS-Organisationen 11472,2 kg, an das KZ Auschwitz 12174,9 kg und an andere KZ 5749,1 kg. Von der Testa bekam also das KZ Auschwitz 1942 fast 7,5 t. und 1943 fast 12,2 t.
Actually I don't think these figures have a solid foundation as when you use the Versandbuchs of the various factories the numbers diminish substantially.
Für das Jahr 1944 lassen sich die entsprechenden Zahlen nur noch aus den Versandbüchern Dessau und Kolin der Degesch entnehmen, die vorliegen. Nach dem Zyklon-Versandbuch haben erhalten: Auschwitz 1.998 kg, SS-Einheiten und sonstige KZ 6.928 kg. Nach dem Zyklon-Versandbuch Kolin haben erhalten: Zentralsanitätslager der SS 1.720 kg.
Hiernach sind also folgende Zyklonlieferungen nach Auschwitz nachgewiesen: 1942 = ca. 7,5 t.; 1943 = ca. 12,2 t.; 1944 = ca. 2 t. Hierbei sind die Lieferungen unberücksichtigt, die, wie später dargelegt werden wird, im Rahmen des Gersteinauftrages nach Auschwitz und Oranienburg gesandt wurden.
However, you will doubtless accept these figures. So for 1943 Gerstein delivered 600 kilograms via his private account G036 to Auschwitz, while Testa, the official supply agents delivered 7000 kilograms.

I hope that is sufficient proof.

Well, one shipment did. That much we know.

That much YOU know. Gerstein presented the entire invoices for 1944 (I expect he lost the 1943 invoices when he needed to get his Degesch account paid). The 1944 invoices show equal quantities going to Auschwitz and Oranienburg - ie around 1100 kilograms each.

I'm not sure why any of this matters. We know why the indicator was removed because Peters said so.

Well exactly, it was removed because a leading member of the German resistance set up a private account and ordered irritantless Zyklon B and then the first opportunity he got handed as many invoices as he could over to War Crimes Prosecutors.

And we know human beings were gassed with Zyklon B at Auschwitz.

Well, we certainly know this irritantless Zyklon B was used for normal disinfection purposes because Gerstein specifically told us so.

We also have a letter of late May 1944 specifically stating his special Zyklon B had not been used and asking if it would still be OK to use for normal disinfection

So what do you think any of this proves?

That you misquote documents, cherry-pick testimonies and misrepresent evidence - but we already knew this.

It also proves that there are people out there prepared to put in the work to track down the documents to correct your howlers. To which we all owe a debt of gratitude

 

[MG1962]

That you misquote documents, cherry-pick testimonies and misrepresent evidence - but we already knew this.

It also proves that there are people out there prepared to put in the work to track down the documents to correct your howlers. To which we all owe a debt of gratitude

Strange you never put references to your documents. Why is that rabbit? With your stunning detective work to unravel the truth about the holocaust I thought you would want the world to know where this information came from.

Could you tell me also where you learned German?

 

[LemmyCaution]

Strange you never put references to your documents. Why is that rabbit? With your stunning detective work to unravel the truth about the holocaust I thought you would want the world to know where this information came from.

Could you tell me also where you learned German?

LGR's documents are all dated early September, or they are not dated at all. He will show his hand when he decides is the right time. And that is really all that degenerate liars and hoaxsters need know about LGR's documents.

 

[Wroclaw]

Yes, I rather agree that Bunny needs now to provide the dates and provenances of all documents. I will respond to what he's posted if he provides that information.

 

[Wroclaw]

That you misquote documents, cherry-pick testimonies and misrepresent evidence - but we already knew this.

You are a walking, talking textbook case of projection.

 

[TSR]

As a demonstration of common-holocaust-believer-on-the-street scholarship in action, you tell us that because there is an instruction manual on the internet that covers the basics of fumigation in general, subjecting single family dwellings to a poison that kills humans almost instantly for the extended period of time that is necessary to kill insects with nothing more than a canvas tent covering the dwelling is "common" practice.

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"Almost instantly" is a judgment call, and not one on which I have opined. "Much quicker than lice or termites" is a matter of record -- do you dispute it? I have been in contact with both the photographer and the specific company involved in that picture, the first didn't know, and the second assures me that it was HCN. But don't trust me, call your Orkin man and get back to us.

Then maybe you'll stop running from telling us why the warning agent wasn't removed worldwide, if it was strictly a financial consideration -- and why it's not sold that way today.
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[TSR]

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And one notes that CM is still running from zir characterization of Morgenthau as a vampire -- what, exactly did he do that forced Germany into offering reparations. DZ has admitted zie hasn't a clue what it was, and everyone else would wonder why you two have made that accusation when you couldn't support it if we didn't already know that you never think your whines through...
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