Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

[little grey rabbit]

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That being the case, why do you suppose that every single use of it in wartime Germany did not *also* have it removed?
.

But it did *also* have it removed.

Do try and keep up.

 

[Moss]

Gerstein habe dann gefragt, ob Zyklon ohne Reizstoff geliefert werden könne, und habe, als er die ablehnende Haltung des Angeklagten bemerkte, erklärt, dass es sich um "legale Hinrichtungen", in einzelnen Fällen um Sterbehilfe handle. Gerstein habe ihm gesagt: "Sie müssen helfen", und der Angeklagte habe den Eindruck gehabt, dass jetzt der "Mensch" Gerstein zum Vorschein komme. Er habe darauf seine Entscheidung getroffen und die Frage Gersteins bejaht. Es sei dann darüber gesprochen worden, welche Mengen von reizstofflosem Zyklon B Gerstein benötigte. Gerstein habe gesagt, dass er monatlich nach Bedarf einige Dosen benötige, und habe ausdrücklich 500g-Dosen verlangt. Er habe weiter darauf bestanden, dass der Auftrag durch den Angeklagten persönlich ohne Zwischenschaltung Dritter gehen solle. Der Angeklagte habe ihm bedeutet, dass dies technisch unmöglich sei, und vorgeschlagen, Gerstein solle auch im Interesse der Geheimhaltung einen Dauerauftrag für die monatliche Lieferung eines grösseren Quantums Zyklon B geben. Gerstein habe ihn dann gefragt, ob reizstoffloses Zyklon B für Entwesungen verwendbar sei, was der Angeklagte bejaht habe. Daraufhin habe Gerstein erklärt, er wolle mehr bestellen, um sich eine Reserve für den Fall einer Fleckfieberepidemie anzulegen. Man habe sich dann auf die Lieferung von monatlich 200 kg geeinigt. Die Lieferungen sollten an die Dienststelle Gersteins "Abteilung für Entwesung und Entseuchung" in Oranienburg gehen, die Rechnungen an Gerstein persönlich gesandt und über ein Konto "Gerstein" verbucht werden.

from http://www1.jur.uva.nl/junsv/Excerpts/415a008.htm

Für das Jahr 1943 ergeben sich ausweislich des Kontoblatts Gerstein folgende Lieferungen:

gemäss Rechnung vom 30.Juni 1943 - 240 kg,
gemäss Rechnung vom 21.September 1943 - 200 kg,
gemäss Rechnung vom 21.September 1943 - 200 kg,
gemäss Rechnung vom 14.Oktober 1943 - 195 kg,
gemäss Rechnung vom 14.Oktober 1943 - 195 kg,
gemäss Rechnung vom 9.November 1943 - 195 kg,
gemäss Rechnung vom 9.November 1943 - 195 kg.
​

http://www1.jur.uva.nl/junsv/Excerpts/415a009.htm

 

[little grey rabbit]

So it seems your original claim was incorrect, Moss.

Actually it's exclusively Auschwitz and Oranienburg that got small shipments of Zyklon B without warning agent before May/June '44 according to the same account sheet.

The account sheet makes no mention of this exclusivity or the presence or otherwise of warning agent.
And this particularly page of the account book only mentions Auschwitz and Oranienburg (I assume they were distribution centers for the KZ system, as they both got identical amounts), so while "exclusive" to this page is true, it is rather misleading.

 

[Dogzilla]

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That being the case, why do you suppose that every single use of it in wartime Germany did not *also* have it removed?
.

Allow me to answer your question with a question. How does the lack of a warning agent make the product better for exterminating people?

 

[Dogzilla]

Thanks for the late edit. You're aware, I'm sure, that the telegram you post does not indicate any location at all, right?

Degesch sent a telegram to Dessauer Werke, the factory where Zyklon-B was actually produced, to tell them to continue producing Zyklon-B without an indicator. No camps are mentioned. However, we do know that trucks ran between Dessau and Auschwitz to transport Zyklon-B.

Bunny's next gambit will be to tell us all that Pressac produced this document as proof that, in fact, Zyklon-B was being made without indicator because of a shortage. However, Pressac also writes:



I.e., they could still have added an irritant or some other chemical that would warn human beings of danger. They did not.

Perhaps Bunny will, after that, try the gambit that the Klarsfelds, in publishing Technique, screwed up the printing of this particular page on purpose?

How'm I doing?

Not so good. How does the lack of a warning agent make the product better for exterminating people?

 

[Dogzilla]

All you're doing is proving my point. If Zyklon-B was shipped without indicator in general in 1944, it's only because they were producing it without indicator for Auschwitz, and Auschwitz was, by far, the largest consumer.

So if they shipped it to everybody without the warning agent, it's only because Auschwitz (their biggest customer) wanted it without the warning agent and it was easier to mass produce the product one way rather than more than one way--which proves it was used for extermination.

If Auschwitz was the only customer receiving the product without the warning agent but every other customer received it with the warning agent, it proves that it was being used for extermination at Auschwitz.

If Auschwitz ordered the product with the warning agent and everybody else got the product with the warning agent, it means that Degesh wasn't willing to change production methods for one customer. Since Auschwitz still received the product, it proves it was used for extermination.

If every customer except Auschwitz got the product without the warning agent and Auschwitz was the only customer who received it with the warning agent, it's because the extremely irritating warning agent would serve to increase the Jews' torment before they succumbed to the toxic fumes--which proves it was used for extermination.

No matter how you slice it, you'll find some ridiculous reason why the chemical composition of the Zyklon B that was delivered to Auschwitz vs that which was delivered to any other customer is proof that it was used for extermination.

Since the lack of the warning agent in the Zyklon B that was delivered to Auschwitz can be explained by expense and production difficulties, if you want to claim that the lack of the warning agent is evidence that it was used for extermination you need to explain why leaving out the warning agent makes it better for mass murder.

 

[Dogzilla]

As a product nothing - However if you don't want to alert people of the potential danger it's a pretty smart move

They're locked inside the gas chamber. They can't do anything to save themselves at that point. And even without a warning agent it sounds like the Jews inside the gas chamber knew what was happening anyway. Their panicked breathing helped circulate the cyanide gas around the room. And weren't they all crushed up against the doors and away from the induction columns when the doors were opened after a gassing?

Do you want to float the theory that the Nazis were trying to alleviate the Jews' suffering by removing the irritant?

 

[Wroclaw]

So if they shipped it to everybody without the warning agent, it's only because Auschwitz (their biggest customer) wanted it without the warning agent and it was easier to mass produce the product one way rather than more than one way--which proves it was used for extermination.

Precisely.

If Auschwitz was the only customer receiving the product without the warning agent but every other customer received it with the warning agent, it proves that it was being used for extermination at Auschwitz.

No.

IIRC, Peters testified that someone (Gerstein, I think — it's been a while) told him why they were ordering it thus and using it in that manner. Had to do with the indicator subjecting the people being killed to needless cruelty with, again, the emphasis being on how horrible it was for the killers to have to witness the suffering.

See The Crime and Punishment of IG Farben. It's online somewhere; as I said, it's been a while.

 

[MG1962]

Do you want to float the theory that the Nazis were trying to alleviate the Jews' suffering by removing the irritant?

Dont try and be clever, it just does not suit you

From Sun Tzu - wisdom almost 2500 years old. And still just as relevant

Cornered prey will often mount a final desperate attack. To prevent this you let the enemy believe he still has a chance for freedom. His will to fight is thus dampened by his desire to escape. When in the end the freedom is proven a falsehood the enemy's morale will be defeated and he will surrender without a fight.

 

[TSR]

Allow me to answer your question with a question. How does the lack of a warning agent make the product better for exterminating people?

.
You've already had an answer on this question, and your question does nothing to answer the question put to you. Your turn...
.

 

[TSR]

Not so good. How does the lack of a warning agent make the product better for exterminating people?

,
Which part of

As a product nothing - However if you don't want to alert people of the potential danger it's a pretty smart move

are you having problems understanding?
,

 

[little grey rabbit]

I quoted it according to the decision of the Lfd.Nr. 415a: LG Frankfurt am Main vom 27.5.1955, 4a Ks 1/55. In case you want a reproduction of the account sheet you will probably want to contact the LG Frankfurt or possibly the Hessische Staatsarchive.

Is this what you are referring to?

I see no mention of any specifications of without warnstoff - do you?

 

[little grey rabbit]

Precisely.



No.

IIRC, Peters testified that someone (Gerstein, I think — it's been a while) told him why they were ordering it thus and using it in that manner. Had to do with the indicator subjecting the people being killed to needless cruelty with, again, the emphasis being on how horrible it was for the killers to have to witness the suffering.

See The Crime and Punishment of IG Farben. It's online somewhere; as I said, it's been a while.

If you assume Peters testimony is correct, that he had a special order made up for Gerstein outside normal ordering procedures, then we also know that this Zyklon B was not used for gassing humans.

Since Gerstein himself (a noted member of the German resistance) stated

"Anyhow I caused the poison to disappear for disinfection purposes, as soon as it came in. There was some danger to me in this, but if I had been asked where the poisonous acid was, I would have stated it was already in a dangerous deterioration and that therefore I had to use it up as an disinfectant!"

It seems clear that Gerstein did try pump Peters for information which he could use in resistance propaganda.

Here is what Peters testified in court

During a visit which Mrugowsky paid me in the second half of 1943 he told me that Herr Gerstein wanted to talk to me. I hadn’t seen him again since. Gerstein received me with the information that he wanted some technical information from me. He told me that he had to make me promise that I would keep strictly quiet on the matter because it was a top secret matter. I answered that I knew such obligations already from other matters but I was quite sure I could keep the matter secret. He stressed the obligation for secrecy in this particular case, even stronger, and told me that the death penalty in this particular might be applied if I would not comply with the obligation for secrecy. I countered that that was nothing new to me either; I thought of similar orders given to me by the armed forces in this respect. Gerstein gave me the solemn obligation to keep the matter secret and told me that in this particular case it wasn’t a question of combatting animals or vermin or insects but it was a matter of applying prussic acid to human beings. I was not surprised at first because I thought he was working on the same matters which were drawn to me already from the armed forces, aims and purposes for which I had from the very beginning of the war carried out experiments, that is, in connection with the use of prussic acid as chemical warfare agent. Therefore, I immediately answered that probably I was acquainted with the problem and that I advised him to use the preliminary work which had been done and which was deposited with the armed forces in order to prevent that double work be done. Gerstein, thereupon, wanted to know immediately what was involved and after some wrangling concerning my obligation to keep quiet about the matter, he dissipated my misgivings by telling me that his top secret matter originated directly with Himmler and indirectly with the Führer, and that I was under obligation to give that information to him. He asked me then to reported to him what was the purpose of the work for the armed forces and I told him in a few brief words the stabilization experiments and the intentions of the armed forces to produce in a large volume pure hydrocyanic acid and to fill it into glass ampules and he wanted information concerning the production firms, etc. He was particularly interested in the possibility of stocking pure hydrocyanic acid. Only after he had this information, he puzzled me with the information that his top secret matter had quite a different content.

This is how it appeared in Gerstein's report
"The director of Degesch, who made those shipments, told me that he had shipped prussic acid in ampules for the purpose of killing human beings......The method of killing children was to hold a tampon of prussic acid under their nose."


Quite what Gerstein was doing with Zyklon B is unclear, at any rate the Zyklon B he received was minor compared with the deliveries Testa and Stabenow were supposedly making to the camps (eg 12 tons in 1943).

That again I tried to contradict in view of our obligations towards Testa and Heli as main agents through whose hands all quantities of zyklon used for decontamination had to be used. Gerstein told me that he absolutely rejected the intervention of Testa and Heli and the rest was none of my business for what final purpose the individual deliveries were to be used. He said I didn’t have to worry about our contracts with Testa and Heli because he would give me the order to deliver these shipments within the scope of the top secret matter and that was a case of force majeur which would cover me at all times with regard to the contracts with Testa and Heli. In conclusion it was only discussed how the business settlement would be made. Gerstein desired that he would discuss matters only with me on account of the secrecy. I told him what was impracticable and I had to reject the suggestion and I pointed to the fact that all further negotiations would have to go via the office of the Degesch. Therefore, the agreement was reached that towards the Degesch the same purpose of use was given as a reason, that of the secret deliveries to the armed forces, and that was the way it was handled later on.

The contact with Gerstein then, confined itself to telephone conversations with the office. I never saw him again. Only from the files I was reminded now that toward the middle of 1944, he wrote a letter to me to Friedberg, and informed that the whole material which we had shipped to him up to now had not been used at all, that, as a matter of fact, nothing of these shipments had been used as yet, and he asked me whether at this stage it was still usable for decontamination.

 

[Dogzilla]

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You've already had an answer on this question, and your question does nothing to answer the question put to you. Your turn...
.

No. I have not received an answer. I've asked why the lack of a warning agent makes Zyklon B better for exterminating Jews several times today and I've asked this same question of people on the internet when the topic comes up in the past. I've never received an answer until Breslau actually floated the theory that the Nazis wanted to alleviate the suffering of the Jews--even though that meant that their own SS men would be in danger if there was some sort of gas chamber malfunction.

Personally I'm not buying into the Concern for the Jews theory.

 

[TSR]

No. I have not received an answer. I've asked why the lack of a warning agent makes Zyklon B better for exterminating Jews several times today and I've asked this same question of people on the internet when the topic comes up in the past. I've never received an answer until Breslau actually floated the theory that the Nazis wanted to alleviate the suffering of the Jews--even though that meant that their own SS men would be in danger if there was some sort of gas chamber malfunction.

Personally I'm not buying into the Concern for the Jews theory.

.
Which part of

As a product nothing - However if you don't want to alert people of the potential danger it's a pretty smart move

are you having problems understanding?

Keep stamping your feet and flapping your arms, maybe CM and Saggs won't notice you are obviously avoiding an answer to the question you were put.

No one else has failed to note it.
.

 

[Clayton Moore]

As a product nothing - However if you don't want to alert people of the potential danger it's a pretty smart move

Are you serious?

Oh yeah. Did you smell that guard's gun?

Go in this room naked, packed shoulder to shoulder. Throw small children into the room, atop all the people already in the room to maximize the number of Jewish people gassed. Have the medical doctor climb the ladder and insert the gassing agent into the room.

Don't forget that the room had to be cleaned out after each gassing since people become incontinent when they die.

I wonder if the doctor wore a gas mask.

I also wonder if the guards were pretty smart and hid their gas masks between gassings so as not to alert people of the possible danger?

 

[Moss]

Apparently I was wrong about the sheet mentioning the lack of a warning agent. It's been a while. But then again you should be able to find the parts of Peters' testimony where he states that Gerstein ordered that without warning agent. He told that

Die zweite Gelegenheit war im Jahre 1943, als ich einen geheimen Befehl erhielt, auf Antrag von Dr. Mrugowski reines Blausäuregas an die persönliche Adresse, nämlich Berlin, Oranienburg, Knesebeckstrasse, einem Mann, der Gerstein hiess, zu liefern. Der erste Auftrag war über 200 kg und ich glaube, dass die ganze Lieferung 600-800 kg betrug. Man gab mir keine Gründe, aber es war für Versuche für die SS und für das OKH. Mir war nicht erlaubt, irgendetwas davon zu sagen, und würde dies auch nicht getan haben, da Berlin im Gebiet des Herrn Dr. Tesch war ...."

And I wonder what you make of this notice by Peters

"..... Mrugowski liess mir mitteilen, dass Assessor Gerstein mich beim nächsten Besuch in Berlin zu sprechen wünsche. Gerstein empfing mich mit der Mitteilung, er habe mich in einer Geheimen Reichssache zunächst zu strengstem Schweigen zu verpflichten; es handele sich um die Anwendung von Blausäure, aber nicht zur Entwesung, sondern gegen Menschen. Ich missverstand zuerst und antwortete (vorschnell, wie ich mir später vorwarf), dass mir die Aufgabe von der Wehrmacht bereits seit längerem bekannt sei. (Ich dachte an einen mir übertragenen Geheimauftrag im Rahmen von Wehrmachtsabsichten, die offenbar zur Verwendung von HCN zu Kampfzwecken führen sollten, von mir allerdings als sinnlos immer bekämpft). Gerstein klärte das Missverständnis mit der Feststellung auf, dass auf Befehl des Reichsführers SS gewisse Verbrecher, unheilbar Kranke und geistig Minderwertige getötet würden, dass die hierzu verwendeten Verfahren zuerst grausam und quälend gewesen seien, dass man nun mit Blausäure versucht hätte, um humaner vorzugehen, dass aber hierin noch eine grosse Grausamkeit liege, weil man nur behelfsmässig mit dem der SS verfügbaren Zyklon die Tötungen vorgenommen hätte ...."

 

[Dogzilla]

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I did. The answer is "Common enough for the FAO to have guidelines regarding this very thing." Maybe you should have read beyond the first sentence....
.

What is the percentage of the total needs to be exceeded before the FAQ will have guidelines for the topic under consideration? Is it ten percent? Twenty percent?

Why don't you just admit that you didn't read the document before you submitted it as the answer to my question so you didn't know that it doesn't say anything about how common it is to find hydrogen cyanide being used to fumigate houses in densely populated areas?

 

[Dogzilla]

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Tell us all: what form did this "pressure" take?
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I don't know what they did to pressure Adenauer. I don't even know that they did. I'm relying on the word of the people who were not not Jewish who said they applied pressure. They might be lying.

It doesn't really matter how much or what type of pressure they applied. It might have been a friendly suggestion over a pint of beer. What matters is that the idea of people who never inflicted any injury giving money to people who never suffered any harm wasn't something the Germans came up with.

 

[Dogzilla]

No, the bricks from the crematorium buildings were were carted away. If the structures in question were underground, then they caved in after destruction with TNT by the SS, and they are in the same condition today.

Given that van Pelt states these things in the movie while standing on the ruins of the gas chambers kinda makes my point.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=654178281151939378

He doesn't say anything about underground vs not underground. The fact that he says what he says while cutting away to a farmhouse with children playing in the yard kinda makes my point.