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Merged Apollo "hoax" discussion / Lick observatory laser saga

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This brings to mind a debate with a hoax believer many years ago, some of the other posters may remember it..

The poster used the same argument as Patrick does here. Stating something to the effect of "having no pictures of Armstrong (wrong, of course) is the same as having no pictures of Edmund Hillary on the top of Everest!"

It was then pointed out to him that there were, in fact, no pictures of Hillary becuase Tenzing Norgay didn't know how to use a camera.
'-)


Wow. That's better than the "Steven Hawking would have died years ago if he had to rely on the British NHS" comment.

In the reverse vein, Patrick bragged that all his ideas for proving Apollo was hoaxed he formulated himself but he stole the militarization of the Moon idea from Dark Side of the Moon.
 
In American courts of law, on a daily basis, jurors are asked to decide this or that, decide whether an occurrence seems reasonable to them or not, decide whether something happened or did not happen, decide whether something was real or was made up, decide as to whether something might or might not constitute a lie based on common sense, based on what a reasonable person raised and living in our culture would do, would think about, would think of when it came to such and such. Our court system is predicated on this.


O.M.G., you've wandered out of JU's field and into mine.

As is true of many of your most general statements, Patrick, you are right in a way. Juries are often asked to apply common sense and determine what a reasonable person would do. They generally do this to determine whether a situation is more likely than not.

But here's the most important thing about that: the question of whether some behavior is reasonable is far different from the question of whether only one particular behavior is reasonable.

Let's say that I am driving when I see a dear in the road, staring right at me. I do one of the following: 1) honk at the dear, slow down and hit it because it doesn't get out of the way; 2) slow down and swerve over into the oncoming lane and pass the dear because it doesn't get out of the way; 3) stop the car and wait a full thirty seconds until the stupid dear finally runs off; 4) stop the car, wait, get out of the car after two solid minutes, and run at the dear while waving my hands so that it finally runs off.

What would you do? I know what I have done.

But which is the reasonable course of action? What would a reasonable person do? The answer is all of them. There are multiple reasonable courses of action. Someone who doesn't know that dear freeze when startled may hit the thing, reasonably expecting it to run off like a rabbit. After just one encounter with a dear, the reasonable person might react differently.

So, lawyers don't ask a jury to determine the one and only true reasonable course of action. The question is whether the action taken is one that a reasonable person might have chosen.

But there's another legal concept you've missed. Why do we ask what a reasonable person would do? We ask it only in one circumstance: when we are trying to determine one's legal duty to others. The "reasonable man" standard has to do with duty and negligence.

Thus, we have to question why you're applying the reasonable man standard to NASA. What duty did NASA have that it neglected? If NASA was a military front, its duty was to protect the nation which, according to you, it did successfully. There's no negligence; there's no reasonableness test.


Aldrin would have been instructed to have taken some "set" photos which would have included Armstrong.


There's your mistake. You think that one particular set of actions is the ONLY reasonable set. The question is: Would a reasonable NASA have planned a mission that didn't include still pictures of Armstrong? Could sober, rational men and women have done that?

We may have questions. What was NASA thinking? JayUtah gave us an excellent explanation of the considerations that led to only one camera being unloaded and that put it in Armstrong's hands. Does it sound reasonable? NASA considered the time necessary to unload and load two cameras from the LEM. NASA considered which astronaut was the better photographer. Those things seem like good, sober explanations.

The way the pictures were taken seem reasonable.

Please note that you are right, to a small extent. NASA considered a way to get pictures of Armstrong. NASA wanted to. But, in the end, they chose another path.


But with limited time and history on the line, there would have been a dedicated effort to script some photos prominently featuring the first man on the moon


You realize, of course, that the helmets completely obscured the astronauts' faces. For most of my life, I though the pictures were of Armstrong. I only found out recently that they were of Aldrin. Do you think NASA may have suspected that they wouldn't be able to get a clear picture of faces when they chose not to unload a camera for Aldrin?


But as common sensical thinking, as appeals to what is and is not only reasonable for most of us, demonstrates more and more that Apollo can only be viewed, must only be viewed as fraudulent


Most of the numbers between 1 and 11 are odd. Must all numbers from 1 to 11 be odd?


But as time goes on, more and more people will realize that my statement, "would you send a guy to the moon and NOT plan to take his picture, a good picture, a dedicated picture, the best you could muster, a picture of him out in front of his space ship? Of course not!!!!" is only too reasonable a statement.


Except that you've made three mistakes: 1) you haven't given people any facts as to why it might have been reasonable for only Armstrong to have a camera; 2) you've asked the wrong question; and 3) you haven't shown that the question deserves to be asked. Every jury gets to hear the details of what went into a decision; but you appear to be denying the jury this opportunity. Second, the right question is, "Do you believe a reasonable NASA might have chosen not to take still pictures of Armstrong?" Third, there's no reason why NASA should have acted reasonably.

The reasonable thing to do, in my opinion, would have been to decide the whole thing was just too hard and to give up. That's what I would have done. Even you don't think there was no space program, even though I think the whole idea of strapping people to rockets is insane.


This is a court of law of sorts Loss Leader. I am suing the U.S. Government and NASA, figuratively speaking, for 20% of an annual US fiscal budget.


Why? You believe that the US carried out missions vital to our defense that actually worked: they kept us safe from nuclear attack for forty years.


Ask yourself this Loss Leader; ever been to the Roman Colosseum? If you have, bet someone took your picture out in front of that bad boy.


Odd that you choose this example. I did go to the Colosseum with my wife on our honeymoon. And we only have pictures of her, none of me. Why? I had the camera; the outfit she was wearing had no pockets.
 
So you and I agree that it is a PR stunt Multivac, wouldn't you have a plan to put the boy scout out in front of the Eagle for God's sake and take his picture? AND were this real, Aldrin would have had a camera as well, ALL OF THE TIME THEY WERE ON THE MOON.

No Patrick1000 a FAKE mission would have made sure to get all those perfect 'Kodak moments'. A real mission, under the real constraints explained by JayUtah had to set priorities. All you're telling us here, as you've done so many times, is that your priorities would have been different(and based on a lack of understanding of medical/technical/political realities); none of which proves anything about Apollo.
Now how about going back to all those technical and hardware questions you've skipped over?
 
...Of course you are welcome to say, "people don't think as you do Patrick, so what you are saying is not necessarily true".

No sir...it has nothing to do with opinions, it has to do with evidence...you have been unable to provide any evidence that would change the minds of people actually familiar with Apollo.

Why is that?...are all the scientists who confirm Apollo as real, just stupider than you?

But as time goes on, more and more people will realize that my statement, "would you send a guy to the moon and NOT plan to take his picture, a good picture, a dedicated picture, the best you could muster, a picture of him out in front of his space ship? Of course not!!!!" is only too reasonable a statement. And they shall come to know it not only as an all too reasonable statement , but A TRUE STATEMENT AS WELL. It must be....blah, blah, blah...

Your disbelief is not evidence. Why can't you understand that??

It is a statement that must be true because it is the type of thing that we all do, and that includes NASA people. They do this picture taking stuff too, at weddings, birthdays, WHEN THEY TRAVEL. Whoever gave the astronauts but one camera and instructions for Armstrong to handle all the pics more or less that person, that guy, is a big fat PERP!

ONCE AGAIN...this wasn't a "vacation", and they were not there to take pictures of each other...so drop this line of reasoning.

Taken together with the rest of the Apollo narrative "facts", the lack of a good Armstrong photo, one that would have shown him on the moon proudly standing in front of his "new car", will one day become a piece of evidence undermining the bogus...blah...


If this is your "evidence", then you can be safely ignored as ignorant...

The Apollo 11 Mission will be EXPOSED like a poorly lit studio pic for the fake fan FAKE, phony baloney charade that it is, sure as the lunar day is long long long my friend.

Nope...repeating the same ole crap is not evidence either...


Ask yourself this Loss Leader; ever been to the Roman Colosseum? If you have, bet someone took your picture out in front of that bad boy. If you haven't, bet you'll have someone take your picture in front when you do go...

Irrelevant what you believe...

This thing is so very fake fake fake fake...

Stop wasting our time and either prove that, or retract your claim...

...just ask the guy next door what he thinks Ask him what he does when he goes to Paris and visits the Eiffel Tower Loss Leader...........

My neighbor's "opinion" is just as irrelevant as yours.


Address the returned Lunar samples that have been studied by scientists around the world...tell us all how wrong ALL those scientists are...
 
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Instead of "Los Bird Proves Apollo Inauthenticity," the name of the thread should be changed to "Stump JayUtah."

At ApolloHoax they give out a virtual "I Corrected JayUtah" T-shirt when someone catches a mistake I've made. Apparently it's a badge of honor. I do know a lot, but I've never achieved omniscience. They give away 3-4 of those a year. I probably rank only a 7 or 8 on the Henry Spencer scale.

I've been deposed many times as an engineer by lawyers. Should I respond in "deposition mode" or in "instructional mode?"

Was there a policy regarding smoking for the Apollo astronauts in their personal free-time (on earth)?
I don't know of any such policy for Apollo, but I know that there was no such policy for Mercury or Gemini. I know that many of the astronauts, being former military men, smoked. I don't believe that NASA had a problem with smoking in general at the time.

Did any astronaut struggle with withdrawal during his mission?
I've never heard any astronaut admit nicotine withdrawal, either in person or in a memoir, during their missions. I recall reading that one Mercury astronaut -- I don't remember which -- prided himself on supposedly using less oxygen because he didn't smoke.

Were the meals numbered for consumption on the Apollo missions (as they were for the Space Shuttle) or could the astronauts choose whichever meal they wanted?
Each astronaut chose his own menu and was supposed to eat the proper meals according to schedule. This was to ensure that the crews received adequate nutrition throughout the mission. Contrary to popular belief, the Apollo missions did not carry Tang.

What were the first words spoken on the moon?
"Shutdown," spoken by Armstrong confirming that he had stopped the DPS.

For many years we believed it might have been Aldrin's, "Engine stop" or perhaps his "ACA out of detent." The latter definitely occurred after touchdown, but the former could have occurred prior to touchdown. Careful analysis of the 16mm film reveals that the engine was running at touchdown, and we believe Aldrin's "Contact light" was spoken with the LM still "airborne."

But the clincher came when we finally obtained the CVR recordings from the LM and determined that Armstrong had said "Shutdown" after actually shutting off the engine. For many years the only widely-available audio recording of the landing was the Net-1 (air-to-ground) circuit. Armstrong's radio keying was not on its voice-activated setting and therefore did not key the downlink every time he spoke; he had to manually key his mic in order to talk to Mission Control. Hence not everything he said was recorded on the ground. We have also subsequently found the MOCR flight controller loop recording from the landing, which I helped to synchronize with the Net-1 recording several years ago.

What was the name of the individual who was sequestered with the Apollo 11 astronauts after landing?
Dr. William Carpentier, MD.

Were the spacesuits used on the moon EVA's cleaned after landing, or are they still covered in moon dust in the museums today?
Both. The suits were vacuumed before the astronauts transferred back to the CM in order to prevent contamination of and damage to CM systems, but the Beta cloth used in Apollo era suits differs from modern Beta cloth used in modern ILC suits in that among other things it is an open weave and is more porous. It was impossible to remove all the Moon dust from the suits, so the suits that are on display now bear visible traces of Moon dust.

The astronauts were permitted to keep some souvenirs of their missions, and those who elected to keep their cuff checklists note with pride that they are still smudged with Moon dust.

Are we certain of the status of the flag erected by the Apollo 11 astronauts and what is that status?
I assume by "status" you mean whether it is still standing. It is not. The APS exhaust blew it over, although there were some reports that the pre-ascent RCS hot-fire test was the culprit. Ironically the Apollo 11 flag may be the best preserved since it may have been covered by dust. The other flags that were left exposed to the elements have almost certainly been reduced to fragments of pastel nylon at the base of the flagpole due to the destructive effects of unfiltered ultraviolet light on polymers.

Because of the relative impenetrability of the regolith, the flagpole for subsequent missions was redesigned to come in two pieces, the lower half of which was pointed and could be driven by an geology hammer swung within the astronaut's comfortable range of motion. Then the upper half was screwed into it.

The film footage of the LM ascent taken from the cockpit, showing the wildly flapping flag, is from Apollo 14. Aldrin actually forgot to start the 16mm camera until several seconds into the Apollo 11 lunar liftoff.

Exactly what was faulty part (down to the serial number) that caused the explosion aboard Apollo 13.
That's a difficult question for an engineer to answer for a lawyer because typically a vast amount of liability could be assigned based on the answer, and a lawyer's notion of liability is not the same as an engineer's notion of cause. The Report of the Apollo 13 Review Board is the evidence here; I would only be in a position of interpreting it as an expert witness.

The explosion occurred in SM oxygen tank No. 2, serial number 10024XTA0008, manufactured as a single assembly by Beech Aircraft as a supplier to the prime contractor North American Aviation (now Rockwell). The tank is itself composed of a number of parts, some of which contributed to the failure and some of which did not.

A thermostatic switch (Spencer Thermostat Division, Metals and Controls Inc., no part or serial number available) protecting the heating circult failed "stuck-closed" as the result of improper improvised purge procedures employed on the launch pad.

As a result of the switch failure, the Teflon electrical insulation on the wiring of the circulation fan (Globe Industries, no part or serial number available) baked off when the heater (Beech, no separate serial number) did not shut off at its designated upper temperature limit. The loss of electrical insulation compromised electrical circuit integrity.

The proximal cause of the explosion was an unintended electrical arc occurring between the fan power and chassis ground conductors (nickel metal), which are installed as a twisted pair of separately insulated conductors. The arc provided suitable thermal energy to vaporize a portion of the cryogenic oxygen contents. The vaporization of liquid oxygen raised the tank pressure and caused the subsequent overpressure failure of the Inconel tank vessel (Cameron Iron Works, no part or serial number available; assembly by Electrodata Corp.). The pressure vessel was not defective and functioned normally until the expanding contents exceeded its design pressure limit and margin.

Wiring does not generally have a serial number but rather only a designation of stock type. It only has a serial number if it is a wiring harness -- an assembly. The wiring in this case was not a harness, but was simply the wiring leads provided by the fan manufacturer and integrated into the fan motor. The leads were wired to an internal terminal block (unknown manufacturer). The fan functioned normally and did not contribute to the accident.

On Friendship 7, what does the 7 stand for?
It stands for the collective team of Mercury flight crews, the seven Mercury astronauts.

For a time, NASA afforded the privilege of naming spacecraft to the crews that flew them. Following the questionable titles of Gumdrop and Spider for the Apollo CM and LM respectively, NASA reasserted its right to approve spacecraft names.

Alan Shepard began the practice of including a "7" in all the Mercury spacecraft names, and this tradition continued for the remainder of the program. Since there was some anxiety over the historical significance of the first man to be chosen to fly, the fledgling astronaut corps vowed to work and function publicly as a team and to keep any rivalry well hidden from the public. Thus the numeral "7" has deep significance in Mercury culture.

Did Grissom blow the hatch?
No. The NASA investigation concluded that Grissom did not activate the explosive hatch fasteners and was cleared of any fault in his Mercury 2 mission. The most likely cause of the premature hatch jettison was determined to be a parachute shroud fouling the external hatch control.

The plug-type door that proved to be so difficult to open during and following the Apollo 1 launch pad fire accident was a direct design consequence of the failure of Grissom's Mercury hatch. In a deep irony, the safety features that Grissom (who was himself a highly skilled engineer) fought to obtain for Apollo ultimately made it impossible for him to be rescued in the accident that took his life.

The book and subsequent film The Right Stuff inaccurately portrays Grissom as a "squirming hatch-blower." While this may have been the opinion of John Glenn, who was novelist Tom Wofle's primary source, it does not reflect either the facts of the incident nor NASA's continued faith in Grissom. Gus Grissom was slated to fly the shakedown flights of all NASA's spacecraft -- a coveted flight assignment -- and according to Deke Slayton may have been chosen as the first man on the Moon.

What were the designed minimum and maximum reentry angles for the Apollo missions and how much confidence was there in a successful reentry that varied by 1 and 2 degrees more or less?
Minimum 5.7 degrees.
Maximum 7.3 degrees.
Optimal 6.48 degrees.

Entry at angles outside the minimum and maximum ranges given above is not considered survivable.

The expected failure mode for a steep descent is destruction of the CM airframe due to aerodynamic stress aggravated by structural weakening due to thermal stress. The crew may or may not survive the imposed G forces prior to spacecraft destruction.

The expected failure mode for a shallow design is deceleration into a long-period, highly eccentric orbit. Since the CM has rotational thrusters only, this orbit cannot be corrected and the resulting perigee will cause an atmospheric entry angle far exceeding the CM structural limits. Onboard consumables are not expected to last for the period of this orbit anyway, so the crew will have expired from hypoxia prior to the second entry.

What was the name of the highest-level Grummond official on-site at Houston during Apollo 14?
I assume you mean Grumman, now part of Northrup Grumman Aerospace.

Lunar Module lead engineer Tom Kelly supervised the Apollo 14 mission for Grumman from Mission Control in Houston. While he may not necessarily have been the highest-ranking official present in the Grumman corporate hierarchy, he would have been the key decision maker in problems arising in the LM.

Kelly participated actively in diagnosing the docking difficulty. (I once worked for one of the engineers who worked the same problem from the NAA side.) He also supervised the diagnosis and correction of the wayward Abort signal in the LM computer.

What was his favorite color?
Carnelian and white.
 
...seems reasonable to them or not

You are not a jury; you are one person. We employ a jury so that we obtain twelve persons' combined judgment of what is reasonable to them, not one person's judgment of what is reasonable to him.

A jury must follow the instructions of the judge. It may not simply set its own standards for the criteria by which it reaches its verdict. In contrast you are simply making up your standards as you go.

And since you are not a lawyer or a judge, you do not have the expertise to tell us that the judgment you propose to apply here is related in any way to that exercised by a jury.

Aldrin would have been instructed to have taken some "set" photos which would have included Armstrong.

Then show me where in the Apollo 11 photography plan Aldrin was instructed to take "set" pictures (which you do not define) of Armstrong. There is no need to speculate on what the astronauts were instructed to photograph or not to photograph; it's part of the Apollo documentary record. You can either show us that your expectations are supported by that documentation, or we will reject your claim as nothing but uninformed supposition.

...there would have been a dedicated effort to script some photos prominently featuring the first man on the moon...

No such objective appears in the photo plan. Begging the question -- argument rejected.

WHETHER ARMSTRONG LIKED IT OR NOT!.

You have provided absolutely no evidence for what Armstrong's attitude is or was. You have simply declared your that Armstrong felt a certain way. Supposition and hearsay -- argument rejected.

You have provide absolutely no evidence that Armstrong's absence from the 70mm photography had anything to do with his or anyone else's attitude. I believe the law reserves the Latin phrase ipse dixit for this particular non-argument. Rejected.

But as common sensical thinking, as appeals to what is and is not only reasonable for most of us, demonstrates more and more that Apollo can only be viewed, must only be viewed as fraudulent...

No. Although you once asserted that "common sense" was all you needed, you explicitly qualified that claim in a way that exposed the circularity of its reasoning. You were thus then entirely refuted and you have declined to rejoin that debate.

Further, as I pointed out in this thread, you rely on the testimony of experts whom you consider authoritative. Clearly then your own devices are insufficient. That is underscored recently by your admission of the need to learn orbital mechanics. Clearly that's expertise you don't have, but which you recognize is necessary.

In case it isn't readily apparent, common sense does not provide the subject-matter expertise you need to argue your points. Nor does anyone here express any agreement with your particular appeals to common sense. "Common sense," in order to to be common, must be reasonably prevalent.

Instead your comical appeals to "common sense" are properly revealed as your incessant desire to elevate your personal incredulity as the standard by which an historical event is to be judged. You simply don't get to make up new "rules" for everyone else to follow.

You style yourself as the jury passing judgment. In fact you are a litigant, and the jury is the audience listening and commenting on your arguments. And it seems that the audience has rendered its verdict. Multiple times.

It is a statement that must be true because it is the type of thing that we all do, and that includes NASA people.

No, all photography in all contexts does not proceed according to your proclamation of what acceptable photography consists of, or your notion of leisure vacation pictures.

They do this picture taking stuff too, at weddings, birthdays, WHEN THEY TRAVEL.

Apollo astronauts were not on holiday. Irrelevant standard applied -- argument rejected.

Taken together with the rest of the Apollo narrative "facts", the lack of a good Armstrong photo, one that would have shown him on the moon proudly standing in front of his "new car"...

Asked and answered. Your personal notion of a "necessary" Apollo photograph is irrelevant.

...will one day become a piece of evidence undermining the bogus old official story...

The "No pictures of Armstrong" claim is one of the oldest of the standard pro-hoax arguments that conspiracy theorists trot out. They all ignore the TV and film footage, say that it's conspicuous that the astronauts didn't take holiday snaps, and attribute the whole thing to some alleged deeply-seated reticence on Armstrong's part. You're about 20 years too late for that argument.

a piece of evidence that helps to proclaim the truths of the real story, MY STORY...

So this is all about you, then?

I am suing the U.S. Government and NASA, figuratively speaking...

If you want to impress me, put your money where your mouth is and sue them literally.

If you want to pretend to impose courtroom standards of evidence on this debate, then let's see how far you get with a real lawyer with the evidence you've got in hand.

Since you posted yet another rant instead of answering anyone's questions, I'm going to assume at this point that it's tantamount to assuming you cannot answer them and have no intention of demonstrating even the slightest amount of relevant competence.

Therefore your entire Instrumented Moon scenario is rejected as layman's twaddle.
 
If you want to impress me, put your money where your mouth is and sue them literally.


He can't. He lacks standing. Even assuming he was a taxpayer at the time of the moon landings, he'd still lack standing. There is no "taxpayer" status.

Furthermore, I cannot think of any possible cause of action that could be brought by anyone with any standing. I suppose if Armstrong published a book saying the mission was fake and the US government said he was senile, he'd have a case for libel in which the truth of the moon landings would be relevant.

Also, I'm not sure why Patrick would sue even if he could. By his own admission, the real objectives of the moon landings were necessary for the defense of the United States. And he admits that such defensive measures worked, in that they effectively stopped the Soviets from shooting nuclear missiles at us.

It's all just so much ... nothing.
 
In the same sense Armstrong "took" the scripted panoramas in the case of the fraudulent reality that is the Apollo 11 Mission, had it been a real mission, a genuine manned lunar landing, Aldrin would have been instructed to have taken some "set" photos which would have included Armstrong.

A simple question, Patrick:

Why?
 
Also, I'm not sure why Patrick would sue even if he could. By his own admission, the real objectives of the moon landings were necessary for the defense of the United States. And he admits that such defensive measures worked, in that they effectively stopped the Soviets from shooting nuclear missiles at us.

It's all just so much ... nothing.

And of course Patrick assumes the existence of military hardware for which there is no evidence, while failing to explain the construction of an array of hardware to land men on the moon that has convinced every engineer who looked at it then or since that it would have done the job, so he would have one heck of a time making his case in any courtroom.
 
You realize, of course, that the helmets completely obscured the astronauts' faces.

Patrick has hypothesized that NASA did not want to photograph Armstrong lest the photo reveal something that would give away the fakery. As I rebutted, I'm not sure how that applies only to Armstrong and not to Aldrin too, who was photographed extensively.

But typically the argument goes that Neil Armstrong refused to be photographed because he supposedly had some attack of conscience and chose not to participate. And that's where the obscured faces come in. Let's say Armstrong got stubborn. Why can't NASA simply put any old actor into a space suit, cover his face, and claim it's Armstrong in the photos?

If photos of Armstrong are that important, and NASA had originally planned to take lots of him, then why didn't they follow the obvious steps to correct that? Why did they instead accept the "clearly" wrong condition?

Even you don't think there was no space program, even though I think the whole idea of strapping people to rockets is insane.

It's an odd thing. Announce that you have a working rocket, and the prospective astronauts will beat down your door in droves. While some people's sense of self-preservation is well developed, others' leaves significant gaps.

That brings up another question of motive. The people most conspicuously associated with Apollo were already at the top of their game. They were test pilots, military men, engineers, scientists, technicians. These are the kinds of people who don't gravitate to fraud. Engineers want to build real machines, not just pretend to and say they did. Test pilots generally don't want fame; they just want to fly the hot planes.

Not only does a faked Apollo scenario fail to pique their interest, it exposes them to significant risk of professional disgrace. Again, these men and women were at the top of their game. Discovery of their involvement in shady dealings effectively ends their careers. Since Apollo offers them no real satisfaction, they would do better simply to pass it by and move on to the next legitimate aerospace opportunity.
 
In American courts of law, on a daily basis, jurors are asked to decide this or that, decide whether an occurrence seems reasonable to them or not, decide whether something happened or did not happen, decide whether something was real or was made up, decide as to whether something might or might not constitute a lie based on common sense, based on what a reasonable person raised and living in our culture would do, would think about, would think of when it came to such and such. Our court system is predicated on this.

No. It doesn't work like that. The courts are not predicated on the ability of an untrained layman to make a judgment of events within a technical field.

if they were, trials would be a lot shorter.

What happens, instead, is the Jury is instructed sufficiently in the subject to make -- as agreed-upon by the lawyers of both teams -- an informed judgment within the narrow specifics of the question at hand within that technical field.

Furthermore, legal reality is not scientific reality. The two are not decided in anything resembling similar ways.

I am only doing the same here. It is the very first moon landing. Were this thing real, not all, but some of the photography would be scripted. In the same sense Armstrong "took" the scripted panoramas in the case of the fraudulent reality that is the Apollo 11 Mission, had it been a real mission, a genuine manned lunar landing, Aldrin would have been instructed to have taken some "set" photos which would have included Armstrong. Of course there would be some improvisation. But with limited time and history on the line, there would have been a dedicated effort to script some photos prominently featuring the first man on the moon, WHETHER ARMSTRONG LIKED IT OR NOT!.

If you were running the zoo.

Your condition is arbitrary. Armstrong appeared on live television. He conducted press debriefings. He took part in a motorcade!

Why is it real-time television and real-time conversations with a US President, also broadcast, are unacceptable? Why is it photographs in training, on the pad, in the spacecraft, and following the mission are insufficient?

I make a claim too. I claim that unless Armstrong appeared on Johnny Carson and was the sole guest that hour, it Was All Faked. Because that's what any ordinary person would expect, right?




It its high time you were called this recurrent and pathetically oh so weak weak weak weak argument of yours Loss Leader, called on your incessant appeal to this particularly feeble defense of the official narrative. Of course you are welcome to say and write over and over that because Patrick is making an appeal to common sense, that does not make his claims, his points based on common sensical appeals accurate, make them correct. But as common sensical thinking, as appeals to what is and is not only reasonable for most of us, demonstrates more and more that Apollo can only be viewed, must only be viewed as fraudulent, as Apollo becomes less and less and less credible with NASA's cock and bull becoming ever so not worthy of more than a giggle, you'll find yourself surprisingly in that shrinking minority Loss Leader, a shrinking minority of individuals still conned by this HOKEY UNREASONABLE UNCOMMON SENSICAL JIVE.

Of course you are welcome to say, "people don't think as you do Patrick, so what you are saying is not necessarily true".

But as time goes on, more and more people will realize that my statement, "would you send a guy to the moon and NOT plan to take his picture, a good picture, a dedicated picture, the best you could muster, a picture of him out in front of his space ship? Of course not!!!!" is only too reasonable a statement. And they shall come to know it not only as an all too reasonable statement , but A TRUE STATEMENT AS WELL. It must be. It can only be so, just add a little common sense. It is a statement that must be true because it is the type of thing that we all do, and that includes NASA people. They do this picture taking stuff too, at weddings, birthdays, WHEN THEY TRAVEL. Whoever gave the astronauts but one camera and instructions for Armstrong to handle all the pics more or less, that person, that guy, is a big fat PERP!

Taken together with the rest of the Apollo narrative "facts", the lack of a good Armstrong photo, one that would have shown him on the moon proudly standing in front of his "new car", will one day become a piece of evidence undermining the bogus old official story, a piece of evidence that helps to proclaim the truths of the real story, MY STORY, THE IMPOSSIBLE TO LOSE BUT NEVERTHELESS LOST LOST LOST EAGLE STORY.

This is a court of law of sorts Loss Leader. I am suing the U.S. Government and NASA, figuratively speaking, for 20% of an annual US fiscal budget. We the REASONABLE want our money back! Kick and scream and cry about it all you like Loss Leader, appeal to NASA's special privilege to not engage in the common sensical all you like, but at the end of this all, there is only one possible outcome, the obvious outcome. The Apollo 11 Mission will be EXPOSED like a poorly lit studio pic for the fake fake FAKE, phony baloney charade that it is, sure as the lunar day is long long long my friend.

Ask yourself this Loss Leader; ever been to the Roman Colosseum? If you have, bet someone took your picture out in front of that bad boy. If you haven't, bet you'll have someone take your picture in front when you do go.........

This thing is so very fake fake fake fake, just ask the guy next door what he thinks. Ask him what he does when he goes to Paris and visits the Eiffel Tower Loss Leader...........

And four hundred words in which you say absolutely nothing more. You don't add to or explicate your arguments. You don't contribute anything to the discussion. The sole content of that entire quote above is "...and so there!"
 
This thing is so very fake fake fake fake, just ask the guy next door what he thinks. Ask him what he does when he goes to Paris and visits the Eiffel Tower Loss Leader...........

Am I the guy next door? There is not a single photograph of me at the Eiffel Tower. I even climbed the stairs. There is also not a single photograph of me at the Tokyo Tower (which I also climbed the stairs of...and it's a lot further to the main deck!) or for that matter, the Fernsehturm in Berlin. In fact, if you go over all the photographs taken by my camera in Paris, Berlin, Tokyo, Kyoto, London, and Bangkok you will not find a single one of me in there. The most you will ever see is my shoes (and once my thumb).
 
Personally, I grow confused trying to figure out just what claim Patrick is making...

Sometimes it's "Apollo didn't go to the Moon at all", then it changes to "they went, but it was military", then it's "they went but it was all just a stunt.

Patrick...I do not think you can believe all these different claims at the same time...it simply isn't rational. Can you decide which claim you would like to make and "stick" to it?

If not, why not??
 
I recall reading that one Mercury astronaut -- I don't remember which -- prided himself on supposedly using less oxygen because he didn't smoke.

According to this web site, it was Gordo Cooper.


I did not know this before searching for it...so I learned something new today. :)
 
I give up. My only hope is that Patrick keeps saying things about law.

Judging from his appearances in other threads here, there are not many subjects he doesn't care to discuss.

I apologize for the verbosity, but I thought it might serve to demonstrate how to answer questions completely, honestly, relevantly, expertly, and promptly. I will revise my testimony to state that I have no knowledge of Tom Kelly's favorite color. I chose the school colors of his alma mater.

I do appreciate the tutorial on reasonable judgment as it relates to law. Not often, but sometimes, I am called upon to comment on whether some other engineer has exercise reasonable judgment. That is a difficult determination because it entails knowing what someone else should reasonably have known, and further involves second-guessing in cases where judgment may legitimately differ. Questions of professional judgment extend beyond the knowledge of the reasonable man, but rest upon many of the same principles.
 
Patrick has hypothesized that NASA did not want to photograph Armstrong lest the photo reveal something that would give away the fakery.



I think a more reasonable explanation would be that they took a bunch of pictures but then later noticed some detail that would reveal the conspiracy, so they just chucked the whole roll.

This, however, leads naturally to the question, If NASA knew people expected pictures of Armstrong, and they knew they didn't have them, why didn't they invent an excuse?

That's the kind of thing that seems reasonable. "In a brief statement, NASA today announced that the roll of film taken by Buzz Aldrin was improperly secured and ruined during the unloading process. NASA regrets the loss of these historic photos, including photos of fellow astronaut Neil Armstrong. A NASA spokesman was quick to add that blame did not lie with the astronauts but with a faulty clasp on the camera that would have been difficult for the astronauts to notice and, in any case, impossible to fix. Reached for a statement, Armstrong told reporters, 'Darn.'"
 
For a time, NASA afforded the privilege of naming spacecraft to the crews that flew them. Following the questionable titles of Gumdrop and Spider for the Apollo CM and LM respectively, NASA reasserted its right to approve spacecraft names.


But naming the spacecraft was suspended after Molly Brown.

Wasn't it Snoopy and Charlie Brown that prompted NASA management to put their foot down and say they had to approve the names?
 
But naming the spacecraft was suspended after Molly Brown.

Wasn't it Snoopy and Charlie Brown that prompted NASA management to put their foot down and say they had to approve the names?

Jay will probably have to set me straight, as I'm doing this from memory. I don't think NASA had too much trouble with Snoopy and Charlie Brown, but I think management made it clear that whimsical names were out for the Lunar landings. I do recall very clearly, that NASA did elect to embrace the Schulz' character names once they'd been chosen (this brings back a lot of eight grade memories!). In fact, didn't one of the big screen displays in the MOCR show a drawing Charles Schulz made specifically for the mission when the LM and CSM docked again in Lunar* orbit? As I recall it was Snoopy as the World War I Flying Ace hugging Charlie Brown.

----------------

*Style/grammar question - is it "Lunar" or "lunar"? Seven years of German in high school and college have really played havoc with my English (or is it "english"?).
 
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Patrick, after reading everything you've written and all of the rebuttals by truly expert witnesses, I'm going to offer you the same advice that a very good trial attorney once gave me: "If you find yourself getting deeper into a hole, stop digging."
 
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