Vaccines: how do I talk to my anti-vac wife about it?

[ehcks]

How many parents of autistic children do you know?

How many parents of autistic children did you interact with over the past 10 years?

I'm sure they are better prepared to make an informed decision for their children than you are.

Besides, what they are doing is walking to the corner and crossing at the light rather than chance crossing in the middle of the block.

Appeals to Emotion are not informed decisions.

 

[excaza]

I'm sure they are better prepared to make an informed decision for their children than you are.

Why are you so sure? Does shooting an autistic child out of ones vagina trump medical school and decades of research?

 

[Segnosaur]

How many parents of autistic children do you know?
How many parents of autistic children did you interact with over the past 10 years?
I'm sure they are better prepared to make an informed decision for their children than you are.

Excaza and ehcks nailed it...

What you are doing is attempting to appeal to emotion by suggesting the simple fact of giving birth makes you a "super-god" capable of knowing more than people who spend their lives doing medical research.

Your argument is no more valid than those people who claim "smoking is safe because I had an uncle who had a friend who smoked yet lived to be 90."

So, what is it about the act of giving birth that turns people omniscient?

Besides, what they are doing is walking to the corner and crossing at the light rather than chance crossing in the middle of the block.

Bad analogy.

If you want to stick by that analogy, by suggesting people get 3 shots rather than a single (and safe) shot, you are not simply "crossing at the light rather than the middle of a block", you are actually ignoring a perfectly good crosswalk in the middle of the block (one that works too!. i.e. the single injection MMR) in order to go out of your way to go to the intersection.

 

[Belz...]

How many parents of autistic children do you know?

How many parents of autistic children did you interact with over the past 10 years?

I'm sure they are better prepared to make an informed decision for their children than you are.

What makes you so sure ? By what standard are they better prepared ?

 

[Tomblvd]

How many parents of autistic children do you know?

How many parents of autistic children did you interact with over the past 10 years?

I'm sure they are better prepared to make an informed decision for their children than you are.

Besides, what they are doing is walking to the corner and crossing at the light rather than chance crossing in the middle of the block.

Again I ask; Why are single jabs safe?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Let's look at this logically. .....

There's your mistake right there. People who cite the whale anti-vaxxer propaganda site as a source of valid information are not operating on logic. They have some other underlying false premise beyond a simple knowledge deficit. If you can't address the underlying false premise, all the logic and valid scientific evidence is useless if convincing someone is your goal.

 

[Clayton Moore]

There's your mistake right there. People who cite the whale anti-vaxxer propaganda site as a source of valid information are not operating on logic. They have some other underlying false premise beyond a simple knowledge deficit. If you can't address the underlying false premise, all the logic and valid scientific evidence is useless if convincing someone is your goal.

http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/2011/06/01/vaccines-and-brain-inflammation/

 

[Tomblvd]

http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/2011/06/01/vaccines-and-brain-inflammation/

You're ignoring a question, Clayton:

Why are single jabs safe?

 

[Estellea]

http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/2011/06/01/vaccines-and-brain-inflammation/

Yes, please stop shifting the goalposts and answer to your claims. This website is a collection of essays from off-the-rails anti-vaxxers so what is your point?

Este

 

[laca]

You're ignoring a question, Clayton:

Why are single jabs safe?

Actually, anti-vaxxers ignore facts, evidence and reason. If that includes some uncomfortable questions, that's just a side effect.

 

[Tomblvd]

Actually, anti-vaxxers ignore facts, evidence and reason. If that includes some uncomfortable questions, that's just a side effect.

I agree.

I just intend to continue to point out his "omission".

 

[Clayton Moore]

Yes, please stop shifting the goalposts and answer to your claims. This website is a collection of essays from off-the-rails anti-vaxxers so what is your point?

Este

The point is, not being a medical scientist, I can only attempt to form opinions from what I read.

I'm not moving any goal posts. I'm learning and sharing. The goalpost continues to be the cause of autism.


http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/2011/06/01/vaccines-and-brain-inflammation/

Fox Morning News, 11 May, 2011, 8:27AM: (Fox25/MyFoxBoston.com): Congress will hold hearings Thursday about a possible link between childhood autism and vaccination—a thought that many thought had been put to rest earlier this year when the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention released a study suggesting that research does not point to an association between the two. But according to information discovered in documents by safeminds.org, at least 83 families received federal compensation for vaccine-related injuries, and each of these 83 children suffered from autism.


Few are aware of the fact that the measles, mumps, and rubella vaccines were administered separately for a number of years in the USA with only slight increases in the incidence of childhood autism prior to the introduction of the MMF vaccine in 1979. It was only following the introduction of this triple vaccine that the incidence of childhood autism showed a sharp and dramatic increase. [63-64]

Based on these revelations, the claims of health authorities that there is no proof of a relationship between vaccines and autism has been technically correct, but this is only because the tests which could prove such a relationship have been systematically and knowingly avoided by the NIH and other government health agencies over a period of many years, which is confirmed by the above declaration by the National Autism Association.

However, since the U.S. Congressional Hearings on Vaccine Safety, 1999-December, 2004, which found gross deficiencies in vaccine safety testing, steadily increasing numbers of highly reputable studies have been appearing in the medical literature indicating that significant harm may be taking place from current childhood vaccine programs. The Pourcyrous study cited above [1] is offered as a prime example.
Safety Recommendation for Parents Who Choose or are Mandated to Vaccinate Their Children, Based on Guidelines of the Autism Research Institute

Never vaccinate a sick child, even if just a runny nose from a viral infection, as all viruses are immunosuppressive, rendering the child more vulnerable to adverse vaccine reactions.
Never allow more than two vaccines per visit; avoid all combination vaccines.
Administer vitamin C before and after each vaccination, ideally in doses of 500 mgs every four hours during waking hours. Also give vitamin A in standard doses.
All forms of sugar should be avoided for several days before and after vaccines, as sugar has been shown to diminish the protective activities of the immune system by depressing white blood cells’ ability to destroy bacteria. [65]

 

[Tomblvd]

The point is, not being a medical scientist, I can only attempt to form opinions from what I read.

I'm not moving any goal posts. I'm learning and sharing. The goalpost continues to be the cause of autism.


http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/2011/06/01/vaccines-and-brain-inflammation/

And you are STILL ignoring the question, Clayton:

Why are single jabs safe? (no, your cut-and-paste doesn't do it)

 

[Chris Haynes]

Few are aware of the fact that the measles, mumps, and rubella vaccines were administered separately for a number of years in the USA with only slight increases in the incidence of childhood autism prior to the introduction of the MMF vaccine in 1979. It was only following the introduction of this triple vaccine that the incidence of childhood autism showed a sharp and dramatic increase. [63-64]

What is an "MMF" vaccine? Also the MMR vaccine was introduced in 1971, not 1979. Why does Buttram get those so wrong?

Let's look at the two references:

63. Sources: Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, California Dep’t of Health and Human Services.

Those are just organizations, without a date or title of any particular paper. And if Buttram had actually used those references he would had both the correct name and year of the vaccine. It shows the pitifully abysmal level of academic scholarship of his research, and on that entire website.

64. Miller NZ, Vaccine Safety Manual, 2008; Sante Fe, NM: New Atlantean Press, p.102.

A bit better, in that is shows a year, title and author. But that is how we know it is basically worthless. That is because Miller has a degree in psychology, and has no experience in immunology, epidemiology, etc. He has an agenda, and has never let facts get his way.


That whole website used to be called "Medical Voices", which prompted this survey of its contents by an infectious disease doctor: Medical Voices: Always in Error, Never in Doubt.

Let us see what Dr. Crislip noticed about Dr. Buttram. Well here is the title of his article: "Shaken Baby Syndrome and Non-Accidental Injury: Are Parents and Caretakers Being Falsely Accused?" (edit to add: here it is on the new webpage). Oh, goody someone else defending child abusers. Quoting Dr. Crislip:

Shaken baby syndrome is where a baby is shaken violently shaken causing retinal hemorrhages, fractures, soft tissue injuries and/or subdural hematoma from a whip lash injury. The nut of his thesis is all these effects are from vaccines not trauma. At least he didn’t suggest it was caused by the Rockefellers, not necessarily an improvement in critical thinking.

Bleeding in the brain. Trauma? No. How could trauma cause bleeding? It must be a vaccine. This is perhaps the oddest argument in a site filled with odd and speaks for itself. It is nice that those who injure children have an advocate.

The Visions statement of the website:

International Medical Council on Vaccination will become the most comprehensive educational center on the Internet for physicians seeking the truth about vaccines. This will change healthcare as we know it.
​

I will not disagree. If baby shakers get off by blaming vaccines, it will be not be change, but not a good one.

By the way, Buttram was also defending a baby murderer along with Yazbak: http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles/comment/buttram.htm


I don't know if you care or not, Mr. Moore, but that is not a good thing. Shaking children is very bad, especially if they die. Blaming it on vaccines is even worse.


And since you brought a quote that claims the level of autism in the USA increased started when its MMR vaccine was introduced in 1971, please provide the title, journal and date of the peer reviewed papers that support that timeline. Make sure they are all dated between 1971 and 1997. Thank you.

 

[Estellea]

The point is, not being a medical scientist, I can only attempt to form opinions from what I read.

Then why do you opt to read screeds and essays from unqualified hacks instead of doing the groundwork to grasp what it is you are interested in. Deciding something is factual and then setting about to find whatever you can to support your foregone conclusion is again, cheap, lazy and dishonest.

I'm not moving any goal posts. I'm learning and sharing. The goalpost continues to be the cause of autism.

You have an odd way of learning and sharing with professional scientists and physicians what you do is not going to be taken seriously, if you hadn't noticed. You are being very dodgy; you make a claim, it is rebutted and questions are asked to support your claim and you move on to another.

I'll keep it simple. How does MMR cause autism whereas the single jabs don't?

http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/2011/06/01/vaccines-and-brain-inflammation/

Nope, Chris pointed out some glaring errors and you can't make your case with essays from hacks

Este

 

[Deetee]

Since Clayton won't answer why he thinks single jabs are better, I'll answer for him.

1. They cause more side effects than combined jabs totalled individually, both standard reactions and anaphylaxis.
2. They are less effective at preventing the disease than combined jabs are.
3. They are more likely to be missed as they require more visits and more effort by parents, leaving kids unprotected.
4. They will need to be spaced out of course, leaving kids unprotected for longer than combo vax will do.
5. They entail multiple additional injections, and since "too many" is terribly bad for kids and causes autism, then fewer (of the combo) vaccine shots are safer than single shots.
6. Because there are fewer shots with combo vaccines, they cause less inflammation overall, and we know inflammation causes autism, stoopid.

So there, those are some reasons why single shots are better at causing disease and why they cause autism.

Is that what you thought, Clayton?
Didn't think so.

 

[Stomatopoda]

You forgot:
7. Three visits to the doc instead of one = 3x as much exposure to other sick people in the waiting room.
8. More expensive.

 

[Clayton Moore]

What is an "MMF" vaccine? Also the MMR vaccine was introduced in 1971, not 1979. Why does Buttram get those so wrong?

Let's look at the two references:

Those are just organizations, without a date or title of any particular paper. And if Buttram had actually used those references he would had both the correct name and year of the vaccine. It shows the pitifully abysmal level of academic scholarship of his research, and on that entire website.



A bit better, in that is shows a year, title and author. But that is how we know it is basically worthless. That is because Miller has a degree in psychology, and has no experience in immunology, epidemiology, etc. He has an agenda, and has never let facts get his way.


That whole website used to be called "Medical Voices", which prompted this survey of its contents by an infectious disease doctor: Medical Voices: Always in Error, Never in Doubt.

Let us see what Dr. Crislip noticed about Dr. Buttram. Well here is the title of his article: "Shaken Baby Syndrome and Non-Accidental Injury: Are Parents and Caretakers Being Falsely Accused?" (edit to add: here it is on the new webpage). Oh, goody someone else defending child abusers. Quoting Dr. Crislip: By the way, Buttram was also defending a baby murderer along with Yazbak: http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles/comment/buttram.htm


I don't know if you care or not, Mr. Moore, but that is not a good thing. Shaking children is very bad, especially if they die. Blaming it on vaccines is even worse.


And since you brought a quote that claims the level of autism in the USA increased started when its MMR vaccine was introduced in 1971, please provide the title, journal and date of the peer reviewed papers that support that timeline. Make sure they are all dated between 1971 and 1997. Thank you.

Yadda yadda yadda.

The net is filled with this and that. Imperfection is everywhere.

Hey, if you believe that the world's medical community can't figure out the cause of a chronic condition to a segment of the WORLD'S population as immobile and protected as toddlers you'll believe anything you're told.

For shame.

Tell me this. What is the commonality, world wide, that has caused the tremendous increase in victims of autism? And don't say there hasn't been a tremendous increase.

 

[Chris Haynes]

You forgot:
7. Three visits to the doc instead of one = 3x as much exposure to other sick people in the waiting room.
8. More expensive.

And another: Wakefield had absolutely no evidence to suggest single vaccines in the video press release of the now retracted Lancet paper. Even without the data fraud, there was no data to implicate the MMR vaccine.

If Mr. Moore has access to the evidence Dr. Wakefield used to suggest kids only get single vaccines, despite their safe use in other countries for over a dozen years, he should tell what it is. We would really like to see that.

(and for Thor's sake, do not post the idiotic Gish Gallop on Wakefield's website and that is mirrored on whale.to, it proves nothing!)

 

[Giordano]

Yadda yadda yadda.

The net is filled with this and that. Imperfection is everywhere.


Tell me this. What is the commonality, world wide, that has caused the tremendous increase in victims of autism? And don't say there hasn't been a tremendous increase.

Yadda, yadda, yadda is your best response to a request for actual proof?

And why can't I say there hasn't been a tremendous increase in autism? Simply naming a set of symptoms as a syndrome will increase it's rate of diagnosis. But even if there has been a true increase in the rate of autism, there is absolutely no correlation of autism with vaccine use. No link in time or location or mechanism. This has been repeatedly demonstrated to you before on this forum, with detailed supporting data. One might as well claim that global warming is the cause of autism- it correlates better than vaccinations.

Someone who really wants to prevent autism would see this overwhelming documentation and say to themselves: "Given the complete lack of a correlation and the additional studies that have been done, autism must not be due to vaccines. I don't know what causes it, but spending my time and effort complaining about vaccines is not helping the autistic. If I continue to falsely accuse vaccination, I am allowing the real cause of autism to continue to hurt people. I should change my views and help discover the real cause."

Now this is why I stopped debating with you in other vaccine threads: we are in the same circle as in the other threads. You have used these arguments before, and have been proven wrong. You need to ask yourself why you are so stuck on a wrong hypothesis, rather than caring enough about the people with autism to let go of it and help find the true basis for their disorder.