Vaccines: how do I talk to my anti-vac wife about it?

[Capsid]

No, but in the same way that I believe that every death is actually due to heart failure! What led up to the tumor or the heart failure is often (but not always) discounted. I experience a lot of strange coincidences in my life but nothing ever as unlikely as that poor girl's case. Imagine having a vaccine and a completely unrelated fatal tumor burst on the same day. Whether the vaccine caused the tumor or just upset the delicate balance keeping the girl alive is possibly a minor point. The major point is the fact that she was injected without confirming that she was in good health.

The tumour was undiagnosed.

 

[Complexity]

Well, see, "impurities" refers to things that aren't supposed to be there. Everything in spring water is, by definition, supposed to be there, so that means that it does not contain any impurities.

QED

Utter twaddle.

 

[trusetheeker]

Parental anecdotes do not equal causation. It is a dishonest tactic used by anti-vaxxers. That girl's tumour didn't appear magically, it was there all along and only discovered coincident with vaccine administration. How could this table have been generated if not for constant monitoring of adverse vaccine events?

Este

Once again you demonstrate the dishonest tactic of completely overlooking human suffering when it doesn't support your point of view. The incidence of 1) healthy person, 2) vaccination, 3) unhealthy or deceased person will always be quickly followed by 4) causation denial. The people are only partially fooled and then only if they aren't aware of all the others dropping around them and across the world.

The vaccine industry and pro-vaxxers use the dishonest tactic of ignoring the wave of suffering that follows the vaccination program or when your feet are held to fire by indisputable evidence, you use the false claim that you're saving more lives than you're destroying.

The evidence is there and given 20-30 years will even be admitted to by relevant authorities along with the assurance that it couldn't happen nowadays. This book, Vaccine supply and innovation By Institute of Medicine (U.S.). Division of Health Promotion and Disease Prevention, includes the cases of a number of people who were injured or worse by vaccines in which the only dispute is who has liability. On page 11 are the poignant words:

Manufacturers are apprehensive that without some means of compensation for unavoidable vaccine injury and temporally related conditions, the present unclear state of the law will continue to allow them to be held liable for such conditions and penalized financially.

Please excuse me for highlighting those specific words but try explaining to a parent how their child's sudden post-vaccination illness or death is just an unavoidable vaccine injury!

(Sorry - I forgot to mention that I didn't find a table when I followed your link this table)

 

[trusetheeker]

The tumour was undiagnosed.

That will make the parents feel so much better. Of course, a lot depends on who you're listening to:

Tragic cancer jab teenager Natalie Morton was killed by tumour - mirror.co.uk

Pathologist Dr Alexander Kolar, who carried out the postmortem, said: "The heart was heavily infiltrated by a tumour which extended to the left lung.

"It was so severe death could have arisen at any time. The role of the immunisation appeared to be minimal. [emphasis added - TS]"

A "minimal role" does not mean "no causation."

 

[trusetheeker]

...

What is really tragic about the whole situation with Wakefield starting this global immunisation scare so he could make money is just the actual morbidity and mortality it is inflicting on children, as well as the lost time and money having to go down this rabbit hole.

...

You can't help it, can you. Wakefield, Wakefield, Wakefield!!! Still no reaction to Salk's unethical experimentation on inmates or Harold Shipman's murder spree. Obviously no real problem as long as they advocated vaccination.

 

[Tatyana]

You can't help it, can you. Wakefield, Wakefield, Wakefield!!! Still no reaction to Salk's unethical experimentation on inmates or Harold Shipman's murder spree. Obviously no real problem as long as they advocated vaccination.

Support vaccination = thinks a serial killer is ok.

Good argument, I like how logical you are.

I also like how the majority of your arguments are total straw man or at least over 50 years old.

Yes, the world has not progressed at all since then. Nothing has changed.

 

[Tatyana]

You can't help it, can you. Wakefield, Wakefield, Wakefield!!! Still no reaction to Salk's unethical experimentation on inmates or Harold Shipman's murder spree. Obviously no real problem as long as they advocated vaccination.

To be honest, I barely read half of what you post as it is so retarded.

Germ theory denialism is ridiculous and retarded.

 

[Belz...]

[1] yes, but its FAR smaller than the risk of the actual diseases

I think we've become complacent and ignorant in our comfort. We've forgotten how deadly those diseases can be when left to their own devices, and some of us take it to the extreme and request the removal of vaccines altogether.

 

[trusetheeker]

Smoke, Mirrors, and the “Disappearance” Of Polio by Suzanne Humphries, MD

There is plenty of confusion on the topic of vaccination, especially amongst brainwashed doctors who trusted their medical schools. Then the unsuspecting, trusting public trusts them…because the medical establishment must know best, right? And doctors are nice people, trying to do a good thing. True. I was once one of those brainwashed doctors who believed in the benevolence of the medical system and believed that all I learned was the best that modern times had to offer. It is blazingly clear to me now though, that much of what is taught in medical school is enormously limited. I now see that most doctors are little more than blind slave-technicians who follow the dogma they were taught and were rewarded for repeating, even as the truth unfolds in front of them dictating otherwise.

Unbeknownst to most doctors, the polio-vaccine history involves a massive public health service makeover during an era when a live, deadly strain of poliovirus infected the Salk polio vaccines, and paralyzed hundreds of children and their contacts. These were the vaccines that were supposedly responsible for the decline in polio from 1955 to 1961! But there is a more sinister reason for the “decline” in polio during those years; in 1955, a very creative re-definition of poliovirus infections was invented, to “cover” the fact that many cases of ”polio” paralysis had no poliovirus in their systems at all. While this protected the reputation of the Salk vaccine, it muddied the waters of history in a big way. (read more)

Should this doctor be taken out and shot? No!!! She should be listened to for she speaks of facts that have been known for centuries.

What the public aren't told includes:

At the same time as Basil O’Connor was pulling in 45 million dollars a year to fund the Salk vaccine development, scientists started to realize that other viruses like Coxsackie, echo and enteroviruses, could also cause polio. They also discussed the fact that lead, arsenic, DDT, and other commonly-used neurotoxins, could identically mimic the lesions of polio. During the great epidemics in the United States, the pathology called polio was reversed by alternative medical doctors who attested to great success, using detoxification procedures available at the time – yet they were categorically ignored[3].

---
What happened the full testing before release of a vaccine?:

The polio vaccine had the fastest licensing in FDA history. It was approved for commercial production after only a two-hour deliberation amongst the Licensing Committee, in a pressured environment. These scientists witnessed a vaccine that was escorted to market, before academic and community doctors had a chance to read any published reports on the safety studies, and before the results of the big polio vaccine trial made it into any medical journal. If these scientists had had more say, it is likely that the “Cutter” disaster and the “Wyeth problem,” both events that led to crippling or death of vaccine recipients just weeks following the hurried vaccine licensing – could have been averted.

This what happens when doctors break their programming!

 

[Chris Haynes]

...

This what happens when doctors break their programming!

So exactly what caused the rate of measles in 1970 to be only 10% of what it was in 1960 in the USA? Just provide us the reasons that happened as documented by the census data provided earlier supported by giving us the actual factual scientific data in the form of the title, journal, date and authors of the peer reviewed papers.

Thank you.

(How many times have I asked this question?)

 

[pakeha]

So exactly what caused the rate of measles in 1970 to be only 10% of what it was in 1960 in the USA? Just provide us the reasons that happened as documented by the census data provided earlier supported by giving us the actual factual scientific data in the form of the title, journal, date and authors of the peer reviewed papers.

Thank you.

(How many times have I asked this question?)

Still waiting for a reply to that question?

Anyway, I read this not 30 minutes ago:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-15819797

Polio in Nigeria 'shows big increase'
A child being given a polio vaccination in Kano in northern Nigeria in 2005 Vaccinations have caused controversy in Nigeria's mainly Muslim north
Continue reading the main story
Related Stories

Nigeria profile
New polio vaccine more effective
Gates takes polio fight to Africa

A four-fold increase in polio has been reported in Nigeria, with the disease spreading to other countries, a World Health Organisation official says.

Forty-three cases were reported in Nigeria this year, compared to 11 last year, the official, Thomas Moran, said.

Curbing the polio virus in Nigeria is key to eradicating the crippling disease in Africa, he said.

In 2003, northern Nigeria's Muslim leaders leaders opposed vaccinations, claiming they could cause infertility.

Nigeria is one of four countries in the world - along with Pakistan, India and Afghanistan - where polio is still a major health risk.
'Strong leadership'

Mr Moran told the BBC the disease had also spread to neighbouring Niger, Mali and Ivory Coast.
Continue reading the main story
Polio

Polio is an infectious disease caused by a virus which invades the nervous system and may cause irreversible paralysis
It can strike at any age but mainly affects children under five
There is no cure for polio, it can only be prevented
Polio vaccine, given multiple times, can protect a child for life.
As long as a single child remains infected with polio, unvaccinated children in all countries are at risk

"The success of polio eradication in Africa rests on Nigeria interrupting the virus," he said.

Polio was affecting eight northern Nigerian states - two more than a few months ago, the head of Nigeria's National Primary Healthcare Development Agency (NPHDA), Dr Ado Muhammad, told the BBC.

Mr Moran said the Nigerian government had shown "strong leadership" in the campaign to eradicate polio and the WHO had been carrying out large scale vaccination programmes to prevent the disease from spreading.

"The immunity profile of Nigerian children is far better [now], which limits the risk of international spread of the virus," Mr Moran said.

He also stressed that the number of children affected remained low.

"You can call it a four-fold increase but it is still very low transmission in a country as large as Nigeria with almost 50m children under five," he said.

At the Commonwealth summit last month, the leaders of Nigeria, Canada, the UK and Australia pledged millions of dollars towards the global effort to eradicate polio.

In 2003, the northern Nigerian state of Kano backed Muslim religious leaders in opposing an immunisation programme, claiming it was a Western plot to make people infertile.

Health experts say this led to many people becoming infected by polio.

The clerics and the state government later dropped their opposition to the immunisation programme.

In 2007, there was a rare outbreak of a vaccine-derived form of polio in northern Nigeria.

It affected 69 children who had been vaccinated.

So the vaccination programme isn't perfect, that is clear.
But the alternatives are apalling.
trusetheeker's analysis of how the polio vaccine was developed is extremely biased, if what I've read is true.
Apparently the haste was inspired by a polio epidemic at the time.

Here's more on that Nigerian situation:
http://www.globalhealthforum.org/poliooutbreak.php

...Nigeria, along with several other poor nations, uses an oral polio vaccine (OPV) as the standard immunization procedure because it’s more affordable, more accessible, and can protect entire villages. This OPV, though, is made from a weakened version of the polio virus which carries risk in itself. Wealthier nations can afford another version of the vaccine which is given intravenously rather than orally. This inferior version of the virus may cause polio in .000001% of immunizations or, in a worse-case-scenario, mutate into a more lethal version of polio....

 

[Clayton Moore]

Hi, folks; can you offer me some help? The trouble is that my wife and I disagree on the importance of vaccines: I think children should be vaccinated, and she thinks vaccines are deadly. She so strongly opposes vaccines that she has said she would leave me before she agreed to vaccinate our children. She has one child from a former spouse, and she's pregnant with our first right now.

Every time I talk to her about vaccines, she tells me stories about how vaccines are at best worthless and at worst fatal - that the incidence of disease goes down due to public sanitation improvements, not vaccination campaigns. She's read a lot of stuff and tells me about all the anti-vac stuff she's read, but it's always a, "I read a (book / report / study / article) by this (guy / doctor / magazine / health group / researcher) that shows vaccines (cause autism / induce fits of paralysis / injure the child / kill the child / other bad stuff)."

She even pulls this story out about how she took one of her cats who up until this point had been completely healthy to get vaccinated for feline leukemia and who after the vaccination came down with feline leukemia and died thus proving that vaccines are a fraud. It's even worse because her mother is of the same opinion and the two reinforce each other's beliefs.

I don't know how to talk to her about this; I've done my reading on JREF and Quackwatch and shown her the reports that so many anti-vac reports are bogus (or the doctors who wrote them are discredited), but she doesn't hear any of it. She's totally convinced that vaccines are dangerous and no matter how I try to broach the subject she gets really hostile and shuts down the conversation.

I feel like I'm in a really tough position because from what I've read I believe vaccines to be really important and safe, but from what my wife has read she believes they're the biggest and most dangerous scam of the 20th century. We both love our children, but I feel like she's the one putting them in harm's way. Can anybody here recommend conversation starters, sound arguments, or other methods of helping her come off the anti-vac wagon?

I think your wife could be convinced of the following from the link I provided below.

He also advocated the use of single vaccines, safely spaced so as not to burden the child's immune system, until the question of the MMR is settled once and for all.

This link provides a great deal of info.


http://www.whale.to/vaccine/yazbak1.html

It was the mother of an English boy who developed regressive autism and gastro-intestinal difficulties after receiving his MMR vaccination who first decided that there might be a link between the vaccine, the regression and the gut problems. She investigated further and found out that an adult gastro-enterologist at the Royal Free Hospital in London named Andrew Wakefield had researched the possible link between viruses and gastro-intestinal diseases. After much insistence, this mother was able to convince Dr. Wakefield to evaluate her son. To everyone's surprise, Wakefield included, unusual findings in the child's intestines were noted. More parents with similarly affected children decided to consult Dr. Wakefield and again, the same rather distinctive pathology was identified.

The Autism Research Unit at Sunderland University reported a ten-fold increase in autism in the UK between 1983 and 1999. Kaye also reported a 7-fold increase in childhood autism between 1988 and 1999 in a study published in the British Medical Journal. (See below).

According to a May 2002 report from the National Autistic Society, 1 child out of 82 in elementary schools in England carries a diagnosis of autism.

The impact of autism on school systems in Canada was also significant. In September 2000, 1,391 students with autism and Pervasive Developmental Disorders (PDD) were registered in the Province of Quebec schools. By September 2002, the number of registered affected children had reached 2,302, a 65.5% increase in two years, the highest ever recorded.

The Minister of Labor and Social Affairs in Saudi Arabia stated in an interview with Arab News that there were 42,500 confirmed cases of autism in the Kingdom in 2002 and that “there remained many undiagnosed cases”. The estimated population of Saudi Arabia was 22,757,092 in July 2001, giving an autism- prevalence rate of 1:500 in the total population. Keeping in mind that the group of children under 10 is in all probability the most affected and that boys usually outnumber girls 4 to 1, the prevalence of autism in boys under the age of 10 in Saudi Arabia is probably one of the highest in the world.

* * *

Wow. Three of our most trusted allies.

 

[dlorde]

They haven't been modified. There's some junk on them. So no.

The junk that landed/fell on them did modify their surfaces slightly - to that small extent they've been modified by man. My point is that 'modified by man' is very blunt instrument for distinguishing natural from artificial. I also wonder if distilled water counts as natural or artificial by this criterion - artificially distilled water generally has less contaminants than rainwater.

It doesn't. I was setting the other poster straight.

I know - my comment was intended as a general, not a personal observation. I should have said "If one's philosophy involves...", or "A philosophy that involves..."

 

[Capsid]

I think your wife could be convinced of the following from the link I provided below.

Quote:
He also advocated the use of single vaccines, safely spaced so as not to burden the child's immune system, until the question of the MMR is settled once and for all.

Wakefield advocated that in the press conference not the Lancet paper. He had absolutely no evidence to suggest it.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Wakefield advocated that in the press conference not the Lancet paper. He had absolutely no evidence to suggest it.

When your son turns 21 and you go to the bar do you set up three shots for him and insist he drink them all at once? One right after the other?

 

[Tatyana]

I think your wife could be convinced of the following from the link I provided below.




This link provides a great deal of info.


http://www.whale.to/vaccine/yazbak1.html










Wow. Three of our most trusted allies.

Internet rules and laws: the top 10, from Godwin to Poe

5. Scopie’s Law
States: “In any discussion involving science or medicine, citing Whale.to as a credible source loses the argument immediately, and gets you laughed out of the room.” First formulated by Rich Scopie on the badscience.net forum.

This law makes little sense without a background knowledge of Whale.to, a conspiracy theory site which includes such items as the complete text of the anti-Semitic hoax Protocols of the Elders of Zion, as well as claims that Aids is caused by vaccination programmes, and that Auschwitz never happened.

It has been expanded by posters on rationalwiki.com to include any use of Answers in Genesis in an argument about creationism and evolution.

According to the logical rules set out by Truseeker, this means you must support Nazis.

 

[Tatyana]

When your son turns 21 and you go to the bar do you set up three shots for him and insist he drink them all at once? One right after the other?

Great logic, shots (as in immunisation) = shots (as in alcohol).

Brilliant.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Great logic, shots (as in immunisation) = shots (as in alcohol).

Brilliant.

Actually the point was moderation.

 

[Tomblvd]

Actually the point was moderation.

Considering vaccinations, what specifically needs to be moderated?

 

[Clayton Moore]

Internet rules and laws: the top 10, from Godwin to Poe



According to the logical rules set out by Truseeker, this means you must support Nazis.

The truth is the truth, greatness is greatness, no matter where you find it.

Many, many wonderful authors have been published by publishers of garbage and hate.

The garbage and hate is everywhere. It's up to the individual to seek out what is not.