Vaccines: how do I talk to my anti-vac wife about it?

[Belz...]

Does this mean that you're going to throw a tantrum?

No. I'm just going to continue pointing out your dishonesty to everyone.

 

[Stomatopoda]

Sigh. As I say, 'Nature' in any normal sense is the natural world of the earth, its life, and so on. It's what people mean by 'nature'. If you believe that e.g. some chemical synthesised to be lethal is 'natural', you're distorting the meaning of the word. If you want to do that, it's your prerogative. But you might do better to be more honest.

Yes, nature is natural. Also, a triangle is triangular, energy is energetic, and Kafka was Kafkaesque.

 

[trusetheeker]

Yes, if you drink water that is chemically pure, or H₂O, also referred to as de-ionised water, there is a very good chance you will create an electrolyte imbalance.

Depending on the extent of the the distillation, the same effect is possible.

Distillation of sea water to remove salt is not the same as distillation of fresh water to remove the dissolved ions.


Here is a hippy dippy site that discussed the issues of de-ionised water that you might prefer:

http://metabolichealing.com/key-int.../cellular-dehydration-major-cause-of-disease/


http://www.holistic-wellness-basics.com/pure-water.html

Thanks for the links but I'll stick to my distilled water. I'll be sure to let you know if I have any electrolyte problems.

 

[dlorde]

Still, the word "natural" is therefore pretty meaningless. If by "artificial" we mean "modified by man", then it's much more useful.

Is it, though? Is it any less vague and ill-defined than 'natural'? Just about every agricultural product we have is the result of selective breeding, from fruits to grains to livestock, modified by man - are they all 'artificial'? Many of the world's ecosystems and landscapes have been modified to some extent by man - artificial? Even the moon, Mars, and Titan have been 'modified by man' - to what extent are they artificial?

Some of these examples may seem facetious, but I think they make a point. If your philosophy involves distinguishing the 'natural' from the 'artificial', you need a pretty extensive and well-defined set of criteria to enable a useful distinction, or you're just pissing in the wind (not you personally, Belz, I hasten to add )...

Are humans natural or artificial? Is what we do natural or artificial?

 

[trusetheeker]

No. I'm just going to continue pointing out your dishonesty to everyone.

Sorry but who are you? You're not controlling my paycheck nor do you have any influence on my life whatsoever. You may ask me as many questions as you like but I have no requirement to answer them much less answer them to your satisfaction. If this makes you unhappy, go play somewhere else!

 

[trusetheeker]

Vaccines aren't injected into the bloodstream. It's no different to being scratched with a thorn.

How much time elapses between the injection of vaccine into tissue before it has been transported completely around the body by the bloodstream? Can you answer that?

PS: Why would a doctor (or other health worker) scratch you with a thorn?

 

[Tatyana]

Thanks for the links but I'll stick to my distilled water. I'll be sure to let you know if I have any electrolyte problems.

Here are some better links, there also appears to be a link with CVD (cardiovascular disease).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purified_water

Distillation removes all minerals from water, and the membrane methods of reverse osmosis and nanofiltration remove most, or virtually all, minerals.

This results in demineralized water which is not an ideal replacement for drinking water. The World Health Organization investigated the health effects of demineralized water in 1980, and its experiments in humans found that demineralized water increased diuresis and the elimination of electrolytes, with decreased serum potassium concentration. Magnesium, calcium and other nutrients in water can help to protect against nutritional deficiency. Demineralized water may also increase the risk from toxic metals because it more readily absorbs them, and because the presence of calcium and magnesium in water can prevent absorption of lead and cadmium.

http://www.iomcworld.com/ijcrimph/files/v03-n01-08.pdf
Role of Waterborne Magnesium in Preventing Chronic DiseasesB L Tamboli, D P Singh, Mukesh Kumar Sharma
International Journal of Collaborative Research on Internal Medicine & Public Health
Vol. 3 No. 1 (January 2011)


Ooooooooooh, you should really like this one as it does mention in the introduction some things hippies just love, ancient Indian knowledge, the Rig Veda!


http://www.who.int/water_sanitation_health/dwq/nutdemineralized/en/
Health risks from drinking demineralized water

 

[dlorde]

How much time elapses between the injection of vaccine into tissue before it has been transported completely around the body by the bloodstream? Can you answer that?

Is that relevant? ISTR that it only needs some macrophages to take some to the nearest lymph node, and the immune system is primed - and antibodies and T-cells go to work.

Meh - I may be wrong, it's a long time since I did any immunology...

 

[Tomblvd]

Thanks for the links but I'll stick to my distilled water. I'll be sure to let you know if I have any electrolyte problems.

You never answered my question. Here is a definition "natural hygiene":

"Not by divine revelation, as so many have claimed for their "discoveries," but by a close and careful study of nature did all these men come to their knowledge. Hygiene represents a return to that pristine mode of living that emerged with man when he first appeared on the earth; it is a revival of something precious that had been all but lost during the course of ages, thanks to the corrupting and perverting influences of shaman, priest, physician and trader. These, with their false systems and false teachings, have led the race astray. When and where ignorance and superstition have prevailed with all their mind-beclouding and debasing influences, there disease and crime abound".

-H. Shelton, 1968.

Now what does distilled water have to do with that? Where did ancient man get his distilled water?

 

[Estellea]

How much time elapses between the injection of vaccine into tissue before it has been transported completely around the body by the bloodstream? Can you answer that?

PS: Why would a doctor (or other health worker) scratch you with a thorn?

Different vaccine excipients have different pharmacokinetics. The thorn reference was called an a-n-a-l-o-g-y. Why do you keep raising these ridiculous claims and demands and then change the subject when they are answered?

Este

 

[Tatyana]

Thanks for the links but I'll stick to my distilled water. I'll be sure to let you know if I have any electrolyte problems.

Or osteoporosis.

How much time elapses between the injection of vaccine into tissue before it has been transported completely around the body by the bloodstream? Can you answer that?

PS: Why would a doctor (or other health worker) scratch you with a thorn?

One of the initial responses of the immune system is swelling, which is obtained by flooding the area with extracellular fluid to help to isolate that area from the rest of the body.

I don't think that an antigen from a vaccine will ever enter the bloodstream, as it a intramuscular injection, it will be the lymphatic system that will transport the antigen to the closest lymph node, where T-cells with present it to a B-cell to start to make antibodies.

This is the advantage of immunisation, the exact same thing would happen if you encountered the actual virus or bacteria, except the bacteria would be replicating in a logarithmic manner, and the virus would be inserting itself into a somatic cell and hiding from our immune system, making it more difficult to deal with.

 

[Chris Haynes]

Sorry but who are you? You're not controlling my paycheck nor do you have any influence on my life whatsoever. You may ask me as many questions as you like but I have no requirement to answer them much less answer them to your satisfaction. If this makes you unhappy, go play somewhere else!

So exactly how did measles morbidity drop by 90% between 1970 and 1960 in the USA? You seem to be actively avoiding answering that question. It doesn't make me unhappy, it makes me laugh at you!

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

And, as it happens, there appear to be undeniable examples of injections being followed by severe irreversible damage.
Is anyone going to comment on that? I was wondering whether the bulk posters (a bit like call centre workers) have an instruction sheet to work from.

There are undeniable examples of people eating a sandwich followed by irreversible damage.
There are undeniable examples of people walking down a street followed by irreversible damage.
Now if your example had any actual statistics backing it up and compared it to the amount of deaths/major disfigurements in people before we injected them with vaccines and then still showed up as worse, then you might have a point.

@Tatyana - 'immune system' is a bit of a misnomer. There's a whole collection of physical and chemical defensive barriers and devices - stomach acid, skin, mucus, white cells of various types, cilia, filtration, and just generally hostile environements from interlopers.

However such questions as how cancer cells in effect are treated as OK, and how bacteria are regarded as not OK, and what the properties of viruses are, are more problematic than gullible people suppose.

The immune system responds to the proteins present on the outside of the cell wall and has been 'programmed' from birth to ignore the protein mix present on your own cells. Cancer cells are mutants of your own cells and unless their mutation changes the proteins present there, the immune system considers them part of your own body and thus not a target.
Bacteria and viruses have a different set of proteins on their outsides and are thus targeted by the immune system. Both can avoid this by infiltrating your own cells and being out of reach. Viruses are better at this than bacteria as for most of their life cycle they exist inside your cells.
Basic immunology, which anyone who has had biology in highschool should know really.

 

[Capsid]

And, as it happens, there appear to be undeniable examples of injections being followed by severe irreversible damage.
Is anyone going to comment on that? I was wondering whether the bulk posters (a bit like call centre workers) have an instruction sheet to work from.

Can you gve specific examples to discuss then? The only side effect of vaccines that are of major concern is anaphylactic shock which can be treated with epinephrine and therefore not irreversible. Or are you talking about drugs in general some of which unlike vaccines are injected into the bloodstream?

 

[Tatyana]

Can you gve specific examples to discuss then? The only side effect of vaccines that are of major concern is anaphylactic shock which can be treated with epinephrine and therefore not irreversible. Or are you talking about drugs in general some of which unlike vaccines are injected into the bloodstream?

Just to be intellectually honest: junkies can get infections, and bodybuilders, with the intramuscular injections, sometimes give themselves abcesses.

I have seen a few BBing abcesses where the idiot has left the infection so long he had to have such a debridement that there is a chunk of meat missing from his glutes.

Part of the neglect is due to the fact that the 'war on drugs' culture and worrying about losing insurance means those who are silly enough to stick a needle in their ass full of steroids often avoid going to the doctor for steroid related problems.

However, you can argue that people are choosing to use these drugs and accepting the risks with using needles.

 

[trusetheeker]

Just to be intellectually honest: junkies can get infections, and bodybuilders, with the intramuscular injections, sometimes give themselves abcesses.

I have seen a few BBing abcesses where the idiot has left the infection so long he had to have such a debridement that there is a chunk of meat missing from his glutes.

Part of the neglect is due to the fact that the 'war on drugs' culture and worrying about losing insurance means those who are silly enough to stick a needle in their ass full of steroids often avoid going to the doctor for steroid related problems.

However, you can argue that people are choosing to use these drugs and accepting the risks with using needles.

Thanks, Tatyana. At last a bit of sound reasoning from the home team. In a similar vein (no pun intended), the difference between being vaccinated and being scratched by a thorn is that no-one is trying to sell the idea that the thorn scratch is good for you

 

[pakeha]

So exactly how did measles morbidity drop by 90% between 1970 and 1960 in the USA? You seem to be actively avoiding answering that question. It doesn't make me unhappy, it makes me laugh at you!

A bump for a good question.

 

[Capsid]

Thanks, Tatyana. At last a bit of sound reasoning from the home team. In a similar vein (no pun intended), the difference between being vaccinated and being scratched by a thorn is that no-one is trying to sell the idea that the thorn scratch is good for you

You have misunderstood me. I was trying to show that a thorn puncture will immunise in the same way that a needle injected into your arm does. And to exemplify that vaccines are not injected into the blood stream; they won't immunise if they are delivered that way. If you think a needle injection results in a different response than a thorn puncture does then please explain how.

 

[trusetheeker]

Can you gve specific examples to discuss then? The only side effect of vaccines that are of major concern is anaphylactic shock which can be treated with epinephrine and therefore not irreversible. Or are you talking about drugs in general some of which unlike vaccines are injected into the bloodstream?

I gave an example earlier from the FDA but apparently it didn't count because the patients died in 1928-ish even though that was the heyday of vaccines solving the world's worst diseases. If the CDC and the FDA etc would admit to the more recent mistakes in writing before the statute of limitations ran out, this vaccine farce would get wound up a lot quicker.

I could link to the recent Gardasil and Cervarix HPV vaccine victims but it's hard to get anyone in the industry to own up to any. Take this inadmissable anecdote from a distressed parent:

From C. Ryalls, on 15 November 2011, on http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/hpv-vaccination/pages/introduction.aspx?WT.mc_id=090805

My daughter had the HPV jab in Oct, Dec 2010 and May 2011. She was off school ill 3/4 weeks after the first 2 jabs and lethargic and tired on holiday 3/4 weeks after the 3rd jab. Her initial illness after the first two jabs were 'flu like viruses. Since Jan'11 she has suffered from fatigue, dizziness, abdominal pain, a constant sore throat, headaches, muscle aches, joint pain, loss of concentration, nausea and menstrual problems. Recently we had a trip to A&E because she had lost the feeling in her right arm and leg and she has started to intermittently become breathless. Before her HPV jabs she was very healthy, active, played a lot of sport and danced competitively. Since her HPV jab, she has missed a lot of school, her grades have suffered and her sport and dance are suffering because even on good days, she doesn't have the energy she used to have.
All my daughters symptoms are listed on the HPV vaccination patient leaflet as common or very common side effects. What the leaflet doesn't specify is the length of time a child can expect to suffer. In my daughters case it's over 12 months and there is no sign of her symptoms lessening.
Each parent must make their own informed choice whether to give permission for the vaccination, the problem is that parents cannot make an informed choice because adequate and honest information is not provided.
Also the vaccination programme is undertaken through schools and as parents you may not be told the dates of the vaccination. At my daughters school, the girls weren't told, presumably to maximise attendance. You do not therefore have the opportunity to decide if your daughter is well enough on that day to receive the vaccination. The school nurses do not have access to the girls' medical files and are not in a position to assess if the girls are well enough to receive the vaccination.
Before you give permission for this vaccination, please, please, please research the risks thoroughly.

And they should count themselves lucky because their daughters didn't die almost immediately after the injection the way this poor girl did. Of course the vaccine didn't kill her! It was the massive tumor that magically appeared in her chest out of nowhere. (And we all know that massive tumors are not on the adverse event list!)

Gardasil has just as many adverse events that are not accepted as being related to the vaccine but I won't waste my typing energy listing for you guys to ignore. Just get your google engine on it if you have a caring bone in your body.

 

[trusetheeker]

You have misunderstood me. I was trying to show that a thorn puncture will immunise in the same way that a needle injected into your arm does. And to exemplify that vaccines are not injected into the blood stream; they won't immunise if they are delivered that way. If you think a needle injection results in a different response than a thorn puncture does then please explain how.

No I completely understood what you wrote and your argument is ridiculous as we tend to think of rose thorn scratches as being unhealthy. Perhaps it's different where you are.