• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Merged Apollo "hoax" discussion / Lick observatory laser saga

Status
Not open for further replies.
I was under the impression the dishonesty question was the real issue....

Fine, you included it in #4838 after omitting it in #4830.

But don't try to evade the real question. How often is "reasonable frequent" and based on what facts (as opposed to your worthless opinion) do you claim it?

I was under the impression the "dishonesty" question was the real issue....

What if the submariners adjusted the platform every 15 days, and say on day 14 and a half the Russians launched? Now what? Is our alignment OK?

Sure we will nail down the specfics, but my points will stand regardless. Say they align the paltform every 30 days, and the Russians launch on day 28. what then? Say they align every day? See what I mean......?....
 
Patience in the face of abject incomprehension is a virtue. Not patience with it, but in the face of it.



Indeed, and the accelerometers at the center of it need to be aligned in a particular way at the instant of launch.

Fascinating stuff, Jay! Thanks for all that great info.

Patrick, I've already told you satellites and stars were not the only means available to get a fix but you keep repeating this falsehood. There was also OMEGA, LORAN C, DECCA, and most accurate of all, even more accurate than TRANSIT, was bathymetric navigation.

You also have neglected to answer my question of how exactly were satellites "sighted". To further expose your ignorance, I am now also asking you how satellites could be "sighted" to get a fix prior to the advent of TRANSIT.
 
I would very much like you to read the entire article, all you mentioned and then some.

Patrick, of all the people here you are the least qualified to accuse others of shallow reading. You have been caught numerous times cherry-picking and quote-mining, and above all citing authors who explicitly disagree with your findings.

I assure you that we have read your article "and then some" -- in many cases the "then some" being pertinent academic degrees, professional experience, and military service. You have none of that.

You focus on one fragment of a sentence from this non-expert's article, to the exclusion of all else. Despite the substantial discussion about the article that you've had from me and others, your entire subsequent engagement has consisted of complaining about being questionably accused of misquotation.

I'm the one who addressed the rest of MacKenzie's article, not you. I would like for you to do so at this time.

i woul;d like to to notice everything, understand everything.

Patrick, of all people here you are the least able to credibly accuse others of a lack of understanding.

I asked you whether you had piloted or navigated any INS-equipped vehicle, or whether you had served aboard a ballistic missile sub. Predictably you have not answered. I will ask again before I assume that you don't want to admit that you haven't done any of that. I underscore the fact that you are speaking to people with practical experience in these devices, and that you are arrogantly trying to paste your uninformed "common sense" over the top of that expertise, as if your layman's guesswork had any value.

It's painfully obvious to most here that you have little idea how these machines work, and equally obvious that you don't really want to know. The activity that you seem to want to call your research seems more like finding ammunition to support your preconception. I will continue pointing out that your sources on inertial navigation agree with me and explicitly not with you, and that they all point to the designer of the Apollo guidance system as by far the world's foremost expert in inertial navigation -- remember, that guy you said didn't know what he was doing.
 
In the case of a strategic/nuclear war, I imagine there were/are contingency plans to go after the oppositions satellites immediately, and physically where possible, materially take them out.

Yes, U.S. military doctrine includes an ASAT component where advisable, and for scenarios besides nuclear war. The specific technologies vary; there is no magic bullet against a satellite.

Physical destruction requires close-tolerance terminal guidance because of the very high relative velocities involved. As such, whether by kinetic warhead or explosive warhead, accuracy is not assured.

Electronic destruction requires the direction of large amounts of energy toward the spacecraft chassis for a substantial length of time. The pointing constraints and energy density required of the hardware make this highly problematic using even today's technology. Further, the ill-fated SDI programs along those lines soured military strategists into considering this as a first-line ASAT weapon.

The primary defense against ASAT weaponry is inherent: the spacecraft orbital velocity. Predicting where the spacecraft will be at some instant in time and being able to guide a kinetic or explosive warhead to that exact point in space-time is a demanding problem.

The next line of defense against an ASAT assault is the ability of most military satellites to alter their orbits. If the interceptor can be detected, even approximately, then a well-timed orbital maneuver (e.g., a posigrade boost) can create a sufficient gap in the intercept solution to cause a miss.

The third line of defense is also fairly obvious: redundancy. At any given moment my civilian GPS can see 2-3 times more spacecraft than are required to get a fix. That means an enemy's kiill rate must be very high in order to disable the GPS system. Communication satellites are multiplied similarly to obtain sufficient operational redundancy and downmoding capability.

Even today it is quite likely that a substantial portion of the U.S. satellite fleet would survive a coordinated ASAT attack, although there are presently only two other countries on Earth with the capability to mount such an attack. This is the Liberty-ship principle: build and deploy more targets than your enemy can destroy. That is not met by a small number of monolithic installations but by a large number of modestly-provisioned (i.e., cheap) ones.

Would orbital velocity save an unmanned lunar base? No, the Moon plods along in its orbit at a very predictable, extremely sedate pace. Several nations today (and two during the Cold War) demonstrate the ability to land projectiles with considerable accuracy on the lunar surface using only orbital mechanics. That also refutes the alleged distance defense. Would orbital velocity save a spacecraft at the Lagrange point, even if you could somehow park one there? No, for the same reason. The rendezvous problem in either case employs the same proximity tolerances but vastly broader velocity tolerances. That's why we could land ballistic projectiles in small circles on the Moon decades before we could hit satellites in low Earth orbit.

Would maneuverability save an unmanned lunar base or a Lagrange-point spacecraft? Hardly! They can't move, being fixed in the one case to an inconveniently immovable planetoid, and being held precariously in a highly unstable gravity-momentum eddy in the second. They are precisely sitting ducks. This, incidentally, was the main reason why the military rejected your idea years ago.

Would redundancy save an lunar base or Lagrange-point spacecraft? In the case of the former, you could argue that your hypothesis allows for six redundant lunar bases -- one for each of the successful Apollo missions. However for the cost of each one of those -- and remember how much you tried to argue those things cost! -- you could deploy 3-5 equivalent low Earth orbit missions. The monumental nature of an Apollo mission naturally precludes any effective redundancy.

And there can be no practical redundancy for Lagrange-point spacecraft because of the constraints of that location. The unstable ones simply can't have spacecraft in them at all, and the stable ones are accessible only through halo orbits that will become crowded.

So in your system there is a limit in terms of both environment constraints and cost to how much redundancy can be achieved. But for the same cost you can put many more spacecraft in Earth orbit where the constraint does not exist.

There is no property of a lunar-surface installation or Lagrange-point spacecraft you have named that cannot be satisfied better, cheaper, and less vulnerably by an artificial spacecraft in Earth orbit. All the arguments you cite for the use of satellites in military operations are for satellites, not for the Moon.
 
Well, I am entitled to a conclusion......

<snip>

Keep in mind, Apollo is military anyway you slice or dice it. The LRRR was used for measuring ocean distances. We know that for a fact. It was also used in determining the mass of the earth. We know that for a fact. These are points not in dispute. Data so derived from LRRR work with respect to geodesy and geodetics would not have been ignored by military personal in their ICBM work. So Apollo is military, right out of the blocks, no question.

<snip>

If your determination that something is military becasue it produces something of value for military applications, then I would suggest that the following things are also clearly military:

a. Medical research;
b. Agricultural research;
c. Chemistry;
d. Metallurgy;
e. Physics;
f. Representational art; etc


Well, the list goes on and on. Just because something can be used for military applications doesn't mean that the R&D that got it there was military.
 
For the past several days you've tried to establish that inertial references typically require inordinately frequent updates, so that you can amplify the supposed consequences of the astronauts' alleged inability to do it at any given time.


Really? I thought his point was that submarines had to surface to sight stars before they could launch missiles and that "artificial stars" were better than real stars because they could be seen during the day and that it was strategically important to have such "artificial stars" as far away from the earth as possible such as on the moon.


In the case of a strategic/nuclear war, I imagine there were/are contingency plans to go after the oppositions satellites immediately, and physically where possible, materially take them out. And I suspect this may well have always been a piece of the US and the Russian strategic plans. I also imagine a lot of time and energy has gone into setting up "satellite defense", whatever that might be.

It is naive to think that in a strategic war, even one hypothetically occurring in 1969, there would be no plans for the USA to go after Russian satellites, BOOM! right at the get go. There would have to be such plans.


Once again, Patrick, you attempt to substitute your own "common sense" for known fact. There's no need to imagine anything about US defense policy fifty to forty years ago. It's all been established. Even if you don't know it, there are experts who do.

Rather than consult such expert sources, you think the more sound way to conduct research is to turn to your own imagination.

BOOM! You are just plain wrong.
 
Yes, U.S. military doctrine includes an ASAT component where advisable, and for scenarios besides nuclear war. The specific technologies vary; there is no magic bullet against a satellite.
...snip...

There is also another line of defense, in a way. One thing that keeps countries from taking out their enemies satellites is the resultant debris then becomes a hazard to their own satellites. Take out enough satellites and space can become unusable.
 
Really? I thought his point was that submarines had to surface to sight stars before they could launch missiles and that "artificial stars" were better than real stars because they could be seen during the day and that it was strategically important to have such "artificial stars" as far away from the earth as possible such as on the moon.


Old-timey post-WWII subs had sextants installed in and/or attachable to their periscopes so they could get celestial fixes while submerged (a sub at periscope depth is considered to be submerged).

When I was on the Seawolf (SSN-21) I managed to shoot several star lines with the periscope even though it wasn't fitted with a sextant. The closest I got to our GPS position was 3 miles.
 
Edited by Loss Leader: 
Overly-personal comments deleted. Moderated Thread,



What if the submariners adjusted the platform every 15 days, and say on day 14 and a half the Russians launched? Now what? Is our alignment OK?

Yes. That's the notion of a tolerance. Welcome to engineering. One of the most important concepts in engineering is that of "good enough." Students who fail to appreciate why that's essential to engineering eventually flunk out and become banjo players.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Really? I thought his point was that submarines had to surface to sight stars before they could launch missiles...

Yes, Patrick is clearly arguing that point today. I believe he is also keeping his former point in the back of his mind. This post refers amibiguously to the "subject of this thread," which has -- as you are well aware -- included a vast number of marginally related topics.

In this post which has become infamous for its unabashed crowing, Patrick reminds us that AGC alignment was, in his theory, "logistically untenable." And what makes it untenable? The inability, according to him, to sight stars at any arbitrary time and thus to align the platform under any contingency.

Now at the same time he was also arguing the alleged need for SSBNs to take a star sight prior to missile launch. The common theme is the misconception that inertial guidance references have to be corrected at absurdly frequent intervals and at uncomfortable times, including for Earth launch vehicles (albeit for a completely different reason).

I realize he is emphasizing the SSBN scenario now, starting with this post . In fact you have to go back to before his straw-grasping from the debriefing report to see where he begins to equivocate about the IMU update frequency.

But the common theme is the procedure for calibrating IMUs. He has applied his misunderstanding in one case to say that the Apollo astronauts describe a non-credible process for calibrating their own guidance platform, and in another case to trump up a reason for militarizing the Moon. As you're well aware, Patrick jumps from topic to topic, returning to one after its criticism has died down a little.

He accepts that the INS on an SSBN is real. He accepts that the INS on the missiles it caries are also real. He accepts that the INS on the Saturn V is real. But he does not accept that the Apollo INS was real -- and this is amusing to me since they were all designed to a greater or lesser degree by one man and his engineering team, and operated according to largely the same principles. By noting this, I'm hoping that Patrick's hair-split remains glaringly apparent.
 
Hoping the experts can tell me:

So, the moment that a boomer receives a real launch order, it becomes a live target. Whatever hunter sub that's supposed to be shadowing it is now looking to sink it by any means necessary.

Where, in general, is the nuclear missile sub? At what location and at what depth has it received its orders. How long does it take from receiving an order to launching its missiles? What happens during that time? How has the procedure changed since 1960?

Also, a boomer that has launched its missiles has, I assume, given away its position. It has also killed millions of people. Hunter-killer subs will probably fire on it as soon as they are able even if it no longer poses a threat. To what extent does the crew know and/or care that they are going to be killed? To what extent will a boomer even try to escape a launch alive? What are the standing orders after a successful launch?

I realize that some of these questions may not be answerable for security reasons.
 
What if the submariners adjusted the platform every 15 days


It doesn't work that way. Different INS are designed with different specifications as the technology evolves and the newer the generation the need for less frequent resets, but regardless of their generation INSs are reset as necessary. Navigation personnel monitor an INS' performance hourly and with every fix opportunity. The IMUs performance is so closely monitored you can catch poor performance building up and take steps to correct it. Any unsatisfactory performance of an IMU, usually caused by a malfunction or a "bad" fix, is immediately brought to the attention of the Navigation Leading Petty Officer, Navigation Chief, Assistant Navigator (my last job on a boat), Navigator, Weapons Officer, XO, and CO.
 
Hoping the experts can tell me:

So, the moment that a boomer receives a real launch order, it becomes a live target. Whatever hunter sub that's supposed to be shadowing it is now looking to sink it by any means necessary.

Where, in general, is the nuclear missile sub? At what location and at what depth has it received its orders. How long does it take from receiving an order to launching its missiles? What happens during that time? How has the procedure changed since 1960?

Also, a boomer that has launched its missiles has, I assume, given away its position. It has also killed millions of people. Hunter-killer subs will probably fire on it as soon as they are able even if it no longer poses a threat. To what extent does the crew know and/or care that they are going to be killed? To what extent will a boomer even try to escape a launch alive? What are the standing orders after a successful launch?

I realize that some of these questions may not be answerable for security reasons.

None of those questions can be answered for security reasons.












Comrade.
 
Hoping the experts can tell me:

So, the moment that a boomer receives a real launch order, it becomes a live target. Whatever hunter sub that's supposed to be shadowing it is now looking to sink it by any means necessary.

Where, in general, is the nuclear missile sub? At what location and at what depth has it received its orders. How long does it take from receiving an order to launching its missiles? What happens during that time? How has the procedure changed since 1960?

Also, a boomer that has launched its missiles has, I assume, given away its position. It has also killed millions of people. Hunter-killer subs will probably fire on it as soon as they are able even if it no longer poses a threat. To what extent does the crew know and/or care that they are going to be killed? To what extent will a boomer even try to escape a launch alive? What are the standing orders after a successful launch?

I realize that some of these questions may not be answerable for security reasons.

Why are you assuming that hunter-killer subs are anywhere in the vicinity of the boomer?
 
If that's not a fair assumption, please educate me.

Launch, or any other instructions, are commonly delivered via ELF.

Even if a sub was in close proximity to another, they would have no idea that the boomer was prepping for launch, except that the might hear something, like the missle doors opening.
 
If that's not a fair assumption, please educate me.

Well, the "unofficial" motto of the Boomers is "We hide with pride".

;-)

I'm not a submariner, so I'm not devulging any confidential info, but to the best of my knowledge, an Ohio class sub has almost never been successfully tracked by a sub of another nation.

I'm sure I'll be corrected in short order if I'm out of line here.
 
Yes. That's the notion of a tolerance. Welcome to engineering. One of the most important concepts in engineering is that of "good enough." Students who fail to appreciate why that's essential to engineering eventually flunk out and become banjo players.

Or claim to be doctors.

Ok, seriously, the idea shouldn't be limited to engineers, but (often named, almost never used by conspiracists) common sense*.

Normal people change their motor oil BEFORE it degrades too much, they realize that "best-before-dates" don't mean that the food goes bad instantly at 0:01 AM of the following day, smart people change to snow tires when they expect snow, not just after it fills the street etc

*Somehow I felt the need to defend the often abused "common sense"
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom