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Merged Apollo "hoax" discussion / Lick observatory laser saga

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Then again, my reading on subs is not all that extensive, not yet anyway.

Noted. Why then have you already stated a conclusion?

Further, have you ever served on an INS-equipped submarine? Have you ever personally piloted or navigated any vehicle by means of an inertial or gyroscopic method?

I will expect simple answers to these questions, and I will press until I get them.

the ones about satellites being used as navigational stars...

Actually satellite navigation has absolutely nothing to do, physically, dynamically, or mathematically with celestial navigation. You seem to be starting to mix the two, so kindly keep each where it belongs.

...for the obvious reason that a genuine star might not be conveniently sightable, especially during the day time.

That is a case for artificial satellites. It is not a case for satellites at Lagrange points or for a base on the Moon.

You keep avoiding the question why we need anything other than the artificial satellites. You say spacecraft in Lagrange points would be less vulnerable. Exactly how, giving your claims that we can hit small targets at lunar distances with ballistic projectiles? Ditto the lunar surface.

My claim is that sub platform drift is not inconsequential and alignments need to be made from time to time.

You've been told exactly how often they need to be calibrated. Why have you chosen to disregard that information?

In some cases, alignments would have to be made just before launch given the concerns unique to the sub situation.

Asked and answered. There is no need in the present system to calibrate the submarine INS after having been ordered to launch.

For example, the missile bucks and broncs as it frees itself from the sea, wiggling this way and that to find and then fully engage the the air. The inertial platform is maintained through these sea wrestling machinations and the weapon, so freed, finds its true course once in the air expressly because platform orientation is so marvelously well maintained.

Yes, that is how an IMU works.

That said, given the unusual circumstances, any consequences of platform alignment imprecision will be magnified some in the special SLBM case.

Expressly no. Jostling the platform does not compound further error. Beginner's mistake to assume so.

A platform cannot be shaken about with absolute impunity.

False. It is the IMU's job precisely to measure accelerations in three dimensions. It measures shaking. That's what it does. You can't say it will fail to do so because it is subjected to exactly the environment it was designed to measure.

You don't even yet have a firm grasp of the elementary basis of inertial navigation. Why am I not surprised?
 
Nevertheless, "reasonably frequent external updates are essential".

According to your non-expert, who seems not to understand how missile systems can correct dispersion in flight, and who is not describing any system then in existence. He's speculating on future systems. How did you fail to pick that up?

Well by the only way possible, by way of a star sighting(s), whether that be of a genuine or artificial/satellite star(s).

You're saying that the only way a submarine can know where it is would be to shoot the stars (real or artificial)? How about knowing where it is by knowing which dock it's tied up to?

Do I need to shoot the stars in order to tell my airplane's INS where it is? No, but I do need to tell it which airport I'm at. It's smart, and knows with great precision the latitude and longitude of the calibration points at various airports.

Geez, you're really new at this, aren't you?

What is not explicitly discussed by the authors in this article is the method of platform alignment.

Yes, exactly. The author provides no information to support your theory. That's our point.

So with sea based SLBM or with ground based ICBMs Loss Leader, in either case, the platform alignment is critical.

Yes it is. That doesn't mean your specific claims for requirements and methods have any value.

It must be done not infrequently at sea...

Asked and answered. Your non-expert author is speculating on what might need to be done for some other system.

...and must be done prelaunch extremely precisely for the land based ICBMs to find their targets.

To a greater or lesser degree than SLBMs, and why?

...satellites are used as well to help the platforms find themselves.

Yes, artificial satellites are used as aids to navigation. That is not a case for using the Moon or Lagrange-point spacecraft.

My basic contention is that some of these artificial signals, artificial starlight, in fact came from, comes from the moon.

A claim for which you have provided no credible evidence.

Your attempt to describe a hijacked Apollo system for doing so fails not only according to the facts, but remains inconsistent with your own claims. Your attempt to contrive a need for using Moon this way failed when you conceded that it would only be a "backup" to the artificial satellites, although you flip-flopped on that again just recently.

Inconsistent, and therefore untrue.
 
Well by the only way possible, by way of a star sighting(s), whether that be of a genuine or artificial/satellite star(s).


Satellite and celestial navigation were not the only means available.

And how, exactly, were satellites "sighted"?


In later posts, I shall argue how the gravitational geodetic data may well have come from Apollo's military moon work as well.


We've already been over this and you were proven wrong with a simple link to the satellite geodesy article on Wikipedia.
 
Bulletin of Atomic Scientists June 1986 says otherwise.....

From the article, MISSILE ACCURACY, AN ARMS CONTROL OPPORTUNITY, page 13, the author states that because BOOMERS/Ballistic Missile Submarines have long patrol times, even the very best of systems cannot maintain the missile in a launch ready state without frequent external updates.

To quote your own source "reasonable freqent external updates"

Is there a reason beside your basic dishonesty to omit the "reasonable"? And given the patrol length of a missile sub (around 2 1/2 months) how often would be reasonable?

Mighty tall order.......

At the tale end of a Popular Science, May 1958 article, QUICK TRIGGER MISSILE, the author claims the missile's guidance system must know EXACTLY where it is for the launch to be successful in terms of providing the requisite accuracy.

And? Again you have been caught in a rather dishonest omission. To quote your own source again "this problem has been solved"
 
As the earth is turning, the Saturn V requires that its platform be constantly realigned as it is ever moving away, moving moving moving, moment to moment moving, away from its previously aligned state. They cannot allow the Saturn V bird's own independent system to take over alignment duties until roughly 17 seconds before lift off. Otherwise, the ongoing movement of the Rocket due to the earth's rotation thows everything way way way out of whack.

Ok, I can finally re-read this now without my head shaking so violently that it prevented me from typing.

The Saturn V used a space-fixed IMU for its INS. That means it constantly pointed in one direction no matter which axis the Saturn rotated around and no matter how much the Earth rotates. The Saturn's Earth-based position and attitude on the launch pad was corrected mathematically: the Earth rotates 15 seconds of arc eastward every second so you convert and apply that correction to the values you had from one second ago. Simple.

Now don't you think there would have been people smart enough to have figured that out?

As part of the start-up procedure for any INS you need to tell it the time and date. Why? So it can correct for the Earth's rotation.

Your assertion the platform must be constantly realigned as the Earth rotates belies your extreme lack of knowledge about inertial navigation.

Dunning and Kruger +1
Patrick 0
 
So, were the low-frequency radio beacons important for subs or not? I'm hearing a lot about the inertial systems being sufficient for submarine navigation, but nobody is mentioning radio triangulation.

It would obviously be far, far less expensive to broadcast from land-based sites than to launch entire satellites to do so. I imagine you could probably set up a hundred radio beacons for the price of one satellite.

Of course, if your subs know where they are with inertial guidance, then there's no reason even for that.

Also, even if the moon were a strategically important site and even if the US actually did send up military technology to the moon, why would that preclude manned missions? Why would the militarization of the moon necessarily mean that robots were sent instead of people?
 
...snip

Also, even if the moon were a strategically important site and even if the US actually did send up military technology to the moon, why would that preclude manned missions? Why would the militarization of the moon necessarily mean that robots were sent instead of people?

Good point.

Patrick seems to keep talking about it being "secure" - distance equals safety. The fact that you wouldn't necessarily take out a "beacon" physically, but rather electronically, eludes him. The fact that the moon isn't that great as a military platform for all the other reasons posted also eludes the deluded.
 
Patrick seems to keep talking about it being "secure" - distance equals safety. The fact that you wouldn't necessarily take out a "beacon" physically, but rather electronically, eludes him. The fact that the moon isn't that great as a military platform for all the other reasons posted also eludes the deluded.


Distance only equals safety if one thinks strategically only in the short term. If the Russians were to start planning a war at 2:00 p.m. and get it underway at 3:45, there'd be no time for them to get to the moon (or any Lagrange point) to destroy our assets.

But if we assume that the Soviets make their plans more than a week in advance, they've got plenty of time to launch strikes against space-based something-or-others-that-somehow-help-us-militarily.
 
Take a look at my post at # 4838 again rimbaldi....

To quote your own source "reasonable freqent external updates"

Is there a reason beside your basic dishonesty to omit the "reasonable"? And given the patrol length of a missile sub (around 2 1/2 months) how often would be reasonable?



And? Again you have been caught in a rather dishonest omission. To quote your own source again "this problem has been solved"

Take a look at my post at # 4838 again rimbaldi....

I quoted the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists explicity by placing "resonably frequently" in quotes along with a link to the very article from where I took the quotation.

Edit: Actually, I was all the more explicit. I quoted the author in my 4838 post verbatim by writing "reasonably frequent external updates are essential".
 
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The qualifier was not left out Jay, sse my post above yours...

Matt is writing from Groton, CT. Patrick, in case that location isn't familiar to you, there is one thing that Groton is famous for, and it's not their shoe industry. When someone who lives in Groton starts telling you about how nuclear submarines and their armaments work, you had better pay attention.



...who is a professor of sociology writing in a pacifist-leaning, non-technical public policy magazine. Really? Is this the source you think successfully contradicts a professional submariner?



No, in the author's words "reasonably frequent" (emphasis added). How frequent is that, Patrick? Every hour? Every day? Every month? Why did you leave out that qualifier?

And I wonder how you missed where the author wrote two pages earlier (p. 11), "The central point about inertial guidance is that it is fundamentally self-contained. It does not rely upon external inputs such as radio signals or star sightings (though these can supplement an inertial system)" (emphasis added).

Does your author think Apollo was real? Yes! (p. 14). He describes Apollo as a second-generation intertial guidance system with a nominal drift rate of 0.01 degree per hour. So in the 23 minutes you say Al Worden wouldn't have been able to see the stars to "navigate," the platform will have drifted about 0.004 degree. Please list and document an Apollo procedure that the CSM would have to undertake while in lunar orbit with a landed crew that requires greater than that precision from the IMU.

How long at that rate, according to your author, would it take the Apollo IMU to drift so far that the guide stars will no longer be in the sextant field of view? Eighty hours! Yes, after the initial platform alignment, the astronauts could fly all the way to the Moon without having to pull their heads away from the sextant eyepiece and exclaim, "Dude, where's my star?"



...as forward-looking speculation by a non-expert author on a technical subject in a non-technical publication intended for a lay audience. The author is not describing a system that then existed, but what he believed might come to exist as newer strategic missiles came to be designed and deployed. Further, you seem to have skipped the entire second half of the article where the author describes the advent of third-generation inertial systems.

I wonder why you continue to rely exclusively on popular sources while you're talking to professional engineers and relevant technicians. Isn't that a little like bringing a noodle to a knife fight? You cite non-technical sources, and then you try to fill in the technical gaps yourself. Do you see how that wouldn't work?



No, read the article again. He's not talking about any specific system. That's why he isn't giving out any specific numbers here, as he does elsewhere when discussing actual existing platforms.

He's simply showing the relationship between the accuracy of the missile and the precision of the navigational start point. He's not saying anything like, "Today's missiles require frequent INS updates." No, he just got done explaining in layman's terms how basic missile guidance works. Then in this paragraph he adds the factor of launching from a mobile platform, where accuracy in the platform position affects overall missile accuracy. He says that to achieve "extremely high accuracy," that can be achieved in his opinion by "frequent external updates."

All this does is to qualitatively connect a certain expectation to a certain requirement. It doesn't make a case for how much accuracy is achievable or desired, nor how frequent an update would therefore be necessary or practical. Not one single operational detail is provided. Matt, who is experienced in these matters, is providing you with the operational details, but you disregard him.

Simply showing a putative cause and effect doesn't quantify either one. You are trying to use this article to quantify "frequent" updates, but it refuses to do so. Instead of listening to the college professor who sits at his desk all day and writes articles on how to disarm the world, why don't you pay attention to the guy who stands watch on submarines and operates the guidance and navigation systems.



And now we're going for a 60-year-old article in another popular magazine?



"Exactly" to what precision? With what tolerance? Those are the important questions if you're an engineer, and your article here doesn't give you any help either. You have nothing here that says how frequently, if at all, the submarine's guidance system has to be updated in order to achieve its mission requirements.

It's also rather disingenuous of you to split this hair without going on to quote the next paragraph in which your author reports that the problem is solved by using submarine inertial navigation. You leave it hanging as if we don't know how to solve the problem.

So one again your author disagrees: he says that as of 1958, the submarine is capable of starting the missile off with a good set of launch site coordinates.

And frankly, I think it's absolutely hilarious that both the articles you cite go on to either mention or discuss in great depth the work of Charles S. Draper, who designed the Apollo guidance system. He is the undisputed master of inertial navigation and all that must be done to maintain its accuracy, and his work on Apollo was extremely well documented.

So on the one hand there is the father and grand engineer of an entire important science telling us he build a machine to successfully navigate to the Moon. And on the other hand there is Patrick from California, who "knows a little engineering" and has determined infallibly that it can't have worked. What's wrong with this picture?

The qualifier "reasonably frequently" was not left out Jay, see my post at # 4838, just above yours here at #4839.....

Edit: Actually, I was all the more explicit. I quoted the author in my 4838 post verbatim by writing "reasonably frequent external updates are essential".
 
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Well, I am entitled to a conclusion......

Noted. Why then have you already stated a conclusion?

Further, have you ever served on an INS-equipped submarine? Have you ever personally piloted or navigated any vehicle by means of an inertial or gyroscopic method?

I will expect simple answers to these questions, and I will press until I get them.



Actually satellite navigation has absolutely nothing to do, physically, dynamically, or mathematically with celestial navigation. You seem to be starting to mix the two, so kindly keep each where it belongs.



That is a case for artificial satellites. It is not a case for satellites at Lagrange points or for a base on the Moon.

You keep avoiding the question why we need anything other than the artificial satellites. You say spacecraft in Lagrange points would be less vulnerable. Exactly how, giving your claims that we can hit small targets at lunar distances with ballistic projectiles? Ditto the lunar surface.



You've been told exactly how often they need to be calibrated. Why have you chosen to disregard that information?



Asked and answered. There is no need in the present system to calibrate the submarine INS after having been ordered to launch.



Yes, that is how an IMU works.



Expressly no. Jostling the platform does not compound further error. Beginner's mistake to assume so.



False. It is the IMU's job precisely to measure accelerations in three dimensions. It measures shaking. That's what it does. You can't say it will fail to do so because it is subjected to exactly the environment it was designed to measure.

You don't even yet have a firm grasp of the elementary basis of inertial navigation. Why am I not surprised?

Well, I am entitled to a conclusion......

I found from reading the magazines which I referenced above that they did use satellites as artificial stars for Polaris Missile guidance given the dependability of satellites, and the lack of dependability with regard to sighting stars during the day. This is not a point in dispute. Again, see my magazine references.

I suggest that given this to be the case, it would only make sense to position artificiaql stars on the moon and at libration points. Logistically, it would be a great addition to any system of military satellites involved in surveillance/reconnaissance/tracking/targeting. For one thing, it's hard if not impossible to take such "satellites" out. Low earth orbiters are at least theoretically eliminatable.

So the second part, the planting emitters, is of course speculative on my part Jay. That is what I am building a case with respect to as I go along. Importantly, that is what JRandi is supposed to be all about, the CT section anyway. Debating the evidence for this type of thing. However, the part about using satellites as artifical stars, that was a done deal many years before Apollo. You can see my posts above for the references. That is a for sure Jay.

Keep in mind, Apollo is military anyway you slice or dice it. The LRRR was used for measuring ocean distances. We know that for a fact. It was also used in determining the mass of the earth. We know that for a fact. These are points not in dispute. Data so derived from LRRR work with respect to geodesy and geodetics would not have been ignored by military personal in their ICBM work. So Apollo is military, right out of the blocks, no question.

The Lick Observatory scientists were told to keep their mouths shut about the location of the LM, correct? That is a point not in dispute. So we know for sure Apollo is military at least in that sense. That is proof, absolute proof right there. Now the Lick guys could have been gamed. The more significant reasons for shutting them up may well have had to do with things other than ocean measurement and earth weight determinations. But they wouldn't tell the Lick boys to button it, unless there really was something to "hide". Why draw attention to "nothing" if you do not have to? There is SOMETHING there, and that something is a military something, and it is quite big Jay. Has to be. My goal is to demonstrate all the ways in which Apollo was military, LRRR stuff and then some.

The fact that it IS MILITARY to some not insignificant degree as confirmed by the testimony of the Lick Scientists in their anecdotal tellings of the goings on back then, gives not only encouragement, but provides flat out justification for some of us to pursue this line of investigation.
 
Ok, I can finally re-read this now without my head shaking so violently that it prevented me from typing.

Patience in the face of abject incomprehension is a virtue. Not patience with it, but in the face of it.

The Saturn V used a space-fixed IMU for its INS.

Indeed, and the accelerometers at the center of it need to be aligned in a particular way at the instant of launch. Why? Because of the way we evolved our expertise in launch vehicle control. A launch vehicle (whether for an ICBM or a commercial vehicle headed for space) wants to navigate according to control laws that borrow a fair amount from fixed-wing airplane control.

The classic airplane motions -- roll, pitch, and yaw -- form the basis of launch-vehicle guidance on ascent. Consider the vehicle two minutes or so into the flight. To simplify, you roll the vehicle so that its notion of up (despite its cylindrical shape) is the local "up" reckoned by the horizon. In that orientation, pitch determines the velocity and altitude profile. Yaw determines conformance to the desired ground track.

Each of those rotations is reckoned according to its own independent set of control laws. This is not the same way a spacecraft in free space is oriented and controlled. A rocket is first an airplane and must be flown somewhat as such. But in order to make those control laws as robust as possible, and their input values as pure and free from error as such, the accelerometers are physically oriented so as to describe an orthogonal reference frame at the instant and precise location of launch.

To simplify: Positive X is up -- that is, the local up at the launch site at the time of launch. It points straight out from the Earth parallel to the rocket. Positive Z is the launch azimuth. (More on this later.) The ascent path lies in the X-Z plane along with important conceptual quanties such as the thrust vector, the drag vector, the diminishing gravity vector, the angle of attack. Which is to say, we want to consider them as much as possible as 2D quantities with 2D solutions. We want the X and Z accelerometers alone to tell us about lift and downrange acceleration without gimbal lock. We want to be able to integrate just those values, without quaternions or basis changes or other complications. Control laws work best when they are dirt simple.

The Y axis, predictably, is perpendicular to the ascent plane and represents left and right deflections from the desired course -- such as from vehicle elasticity, thrust irregularity, wind, etc. The Y axis conceives of the flight path as seen from above, without respect to altitude or speed. There is only left or right.

So we have roll control, yaw control, and pitch control. With the platform properly aligned at launch, and certain controllers properly functioning, we have dedicated accelerometers whose sensitive axes correspond directly to the inputs to the control laws.

The roll control law is basically "Keep the heads-up axis of the rocket pointing directly away from Earth's center." The heads-up axis is a direction perpendicular to the longitudinal axis of the vehicle, chosen arbitrarily and then forming the basis for other sensor and structure location. Some launch vehicles use optical horizon sensors. Some use dedicated roll gyros. The point is that roll control is a simple control. Error and error rates in this channel translate to thrust vector commands to treat the outboard engines as if they were airplane ailerons. Roll control doesn't give a [bleep] about altitude or whether the rocket is on course.

The yaw control law is basically "If we drift left, steer right; if we drift right, steer left." Again, dirt simple. The Y accelerometer alone drives this process in the ideal world. The output of the control law are commands to treat the steerable outboard engines just like and outboard motor on a boat.

With roll and yaw control achieved by those simple control laws, pitch control can remain a 2D solution. And the pitch control law is a bit more complicated. When the launch vehicle engine shuts off, the precise geometrical point at which that occurs, and the velocity vector that prevails at that instant, together define the orbit. Hence the goal of the launch vehicle is to get to a certain altitude, a certain distance downrange, and a certain horizontal and vertical velocity -- all in the conceptual X-Z plane, but realistically speaking in Earth-fixed 3D coordinates.

So the pitch control law has to make sure the rocket climbs appropriately according to the ascent profile. Since it has to trade speed for altitude, that's an important control law to get right. That's where the majority of expertise is applied, and the majority of gentleness and finesse such as easing the AOT around max Q.

We launch rockets roughly eastward. The exact azimuth depends on the desired orbital inclination at insertion. That in turn varies by the launch instant within the launch window. As the window opens, the launch azimuth is set at a particular value, and changes slowly as the window progresses. This is why the Z axis has to be updated at the very last second; you don't know for sure what the launch azimuth will be.

In practice the first few seconds of flight don't follow the general guidance rules. Until the tower is clear, the vehicle generally flies straight up, or according to a programmed tower-avoidance manuever. Then it rolls into the departure azimuth. For example, the space shuttle sat on the pad with the vertical stabilizer pointing south. It rolls to point the vertical stabilizer down the launch azimuth. This begins the formal closed-loop ascent guidance.

Indeed the notion that the IMU needs to be frequently updated during the ascent is hogwash. It receives updates prior to launch only to ensure that the X-Y-Z axes correspond as exactly as possible to the launch site and ascent profile orientation at the instant of launch. Ballistic missiles operate the same way, only with more generalized notions of launch azimuth. They still align the platform shortly before launch and then don't need to again until (in second-generation boosters) the opportunity for a star-sight refinement occurs.
 
Actually, my quote was all the more extensive, note I quoted in full...

Though my claim applies perhaps most significantly to SLBMs Loss Leader, land based ICBMs also require platform alignment checks prior to launch. Again I would refer the interested to the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists Publication from June 1986;

http://books.google.com/books?id=oQ...&resnum=4&ved=0CEIQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q&f=false

On page 13 the author reminds us that a SLBM's accuracy is not solely dependent on the missile's intrinsic accuracy per se, the submarine's navigation system must find itself and supply the missile with the weapon's initial ever so critical data. The sub's system, like the missiles' is inertial. Nevertheless, "reasonably frequent external updates are essential". How would such a reasonably frequent update be made? Well by the only way possible, by way of a star sighting(s), whether that be of a genuine or artificial/satellite star(s).

The authors go on to point out, also on page 13, that in the case of fixed silo land based missiles, initial position and velocity are better known than is the case with the SLBMs and the subs that tote them. That said, the correct prelaunch alignment of the platform must be ensured. A small error here can easily mean a large target miss. This is explicitly stated by the authors. The authors go on further to state that in the case of early missiles the alignment process was painstakingly done by hand. It was a "manual task". By 1986 it had become automated in some cases to some degree, but was not fool proof. What is not explicitly discussed by the authors in this article is the method of platform alignment. It is celestial, done by way of sighting stars, stars genuine, or stars artificial/satellite emitters, and that is whether the sightings are done manually, or by way of an automated method. This is the only method available. This is what it means to align a platform. It means to synch it with the stars/satellites. And sink the birds with gravity as well !!!, but we shall get to the gravity points later.

So with sea based SLBM or with ground based ICBMs Loss Leader, in either case, the platform alignment is critical. It must be done not infrequently at sea, and must be done prelaunch extremely precisely for the land based ICBMs to find their targets. As such star synchronization cannot be reliably be done with native stars 24/7, satellites are used as well to help the platforms find themselves.

I'll cover the issue of gravity synchronization, alignment in later posts dedicated to that particular aspect of alignment concerns/difficulties.

My basic contention is that some of these artificial signals, artificial starlight, in fact came from, comes from the moon. In later posts, I shall argue how the gravitational geodetic data may well have come from Apollo's military moon work as well.

Actually, my quote was all the more extensive even than I just alluded to above, note that I quoted in full the qualifier and wrote as above;

"The sub's system, like the missiles' is inertial. Nevertheless, "reasonably frequent external updates are essential". How would such a reasonably frequent update be made? Well by the only way possible, by way of a star sighting(s), whether that be of a genuine or artificial/satellite star(s)."

This explicit quote of the article, plus my providing a link to the article should leave no question that if anything I was drawing attention to the "qualifier". And indeed, why should I not do so? It is a qualifier that works in my favor. There was no reason to hide it, and obviously, as per this very post at #4838, it was not hidden, but rather, emphasized.
 
The qualifier "reasonably frequently" was not left out Jay, see my post at # 4838, just above yours here at #4839.....

It was left out of post #4830, which is the one I responded to. That response was submitted for moderator approval before you wrote #4838. I will retract that one accusation of selective quotation, but the others still stand.

Considering the lengthy and detailed nature of my response, is that really all you're going to address?
 
Well, I am entitled to a conclusion...

And you are entitled to the consequences of drawing a conclusion in the absence of appropriate understanding. There is no shortcut to erudition.

I suggest that given this to be the case, it would only make sense to position artificial stars on the moon and at libration points.

Begging the question.

For one thing, it's hard if not impossible to take such "satellites" out.

Asked and answered. Kindly do not simply repeat your refuted belief.

So the second part, the planting emitters, is of course speculative on my part Jay.

You've made such tactical pseudo-concessions before, at Apollohoax. Sorry, but unless you specifically state, and stick to, a proper concession, I don't believe you. You have adamantly claimed for months that Apollo was an unmanned mission to deploy military hardware intended to support strategic defense. I don't believe that you have suddenly recanted.

That is what I am building a case with respect to as I go along.

Do you claim that it is a defensible intellectual process to arrive at one's conclusion first and then to build a case for it as one discovers the pertinent evidence? How is that not tantamount to diagnosing the patient and prescribing treatment before any tests or examinations?

Debating the evidence for this type of thing.

A debate requires you to address the rebuttals. You appear to be treating JREF mostly as a soapbox.

However, the part about using satellites as artifical stars, that was a done deal many years before Apollo.

No amount of evidence favoring artificial satellites supports your claim that the Moon and Lagrange points have been similarly provisioned. You are begging that question.

Keep in mind, Apollo is military anyway you slice or dice it.

(The aforementioned statement of your theory as incontrovertible fact.) You are fully entrenched in your belief.

There is SOMETHING there, and that something is a military something, and it is quite big Jay. Has to be.

Begging the question.

My goal is to demonstrate all the ways in which Apollo was military...

You have a predetermined belief. You have demonstrated a nearly unswerving pattern of selectively quoting evidence that supports only that belief, and of ignoring evidence -- even from the same sources -- that contradicts it.

You have repeatedly stated your desire and expectation to be the scholar that "blows the lid" off Apollo and therefore written into the history books. How are we to trust someone who is so emotionally invested in his desired outcome to represent the facts accurately? If the facts were to demonstrate that Apollo occurred as generally believed, you lose your place in history.
 
Actually, my quote was all the more extensive even than I just alluded to above, note that I quoted in full the qualifier and wrote as above;

"The sub's system, like the missiles' is inertial. Nevertheless, "reasonably frequent external updates are essential". How would such a reasonably frequent update be made? Well by the only way possible, by way of a star sighting(s), whether that be of a genuine or artificial/satellite star(s)."

This explicit quote of the article, plus my providing a link to the article should leave no question that if anything I was drawing attention to the "qualifier". And indeed, why should I not do so? It is a qualifier that works in my favor. There was no reason to hide it, and obviously, as per this very post at #4838, it was not hidden, but rather, emphasized.

Why did you omit the preceding sentence?

Why did you omit the following sentence?

Why did you omit context?

Did you think nobody would actually read and understand it?
 
Actually, my quote was all the more extensive...

No, we're not going to wallow in whether you quoted your source fairly, especially since we must all submit to moderation with its associated delays and asynchronicity. I've conceded that you have corrected your original quotation to restore an important qualification. However, that was only one of several criticisms I brought against your use of those sources. Please address the others.

How would such a reasonably frequent update be made?

For the third time, your author is speculating. He is not a submariner or a guidance-system or weapons engineer, and is not a subject-matter expert. His belief does not establish that any at-sea calibrations are necessary.

You've been told by several subject-matter experts what the practical requirements and capabilities really are. Please address those, not what you read into some sociologist's belief.

This explicit quote of the article, plus my providing a link to the article should leave no question that if anything I was drawing attention to the "qualifier".

No. Your emphasis up to now has been on two factors: that updates were required, and that they would need to be frequent. For the past several days you've tried to establish that inertial references typically require inordinately frequent updates, so that you can amplify the supposed consequences of the astronauts' alleged inability to do it at any given time.

You emphasize "reasonable" now only because it buttresses your claim to have caught your critics in an error.

It is a qualifier that works in my favor.

No, not especially. It has been my contention, and that of other subject-matter experts, that your expectations for IMU calibration are entirely unreasonable.
 
You would certainly take military satellites out physically....

Good point.

Patrick seems to keep talking about it being "secure" - distance equals safety. The fact that you wouldn't necessarily take out a "beacon" physically, but rather electronically, eludes him. The fact that the moon isn't that great as a military platform for all the other reasons posted also eludes the deluded.

You would certainly take military satellites out physically....if you could, such as you could. There is no question they were working on this from the get go.

I understand your point about the electronics and it is a good one. That said, just because people don't talk about popping satellites in the main, doesn't mean it is not something that cannot be done, or something that there were never, are no contingency plans with regard to. I would suggest quite the contrary.

In the case of a strategic/nuclear war, I imagine there were/are contingency plans to go after the oppositions satellites immediately, and physically where possible, materially take them out. And I suspect this may well have always been a piece of the US and the Russian strategic plans. I also imagine a lot of time and energy has gone into setting up "satellite defense", whatever that might be.

It is naive to think that in a strategic war, even one hypothetically occurring in 1969, there would be no plans for the USA to go after Russian satellites, BOOM! right at the get go. There would have to be such plans.
 
There is a link to the article abaddon....

Why did you omit the preceding sentence?

Why did you omit the following sentence?

Why did you omit context?

Did you think nobody would actually read and understand it?

There is a link to the article abaddon....The point being I would very much like you to read the entire article, all you mentioned and then some. i woul;d like to to notice everything, understand everything.
 
Take a look at my post at # 4838 again rimbaldi....

Fine, you included it in #4838 after omitting it in #4830.

But don't try to evade the real question. How often is "reasonable frequent" and based on what facts (as opposed to your worthless opinion) do you claim it?
 
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