Merged So there was melted steel

[Miragememories]

"As I already said, I am not joking and I realize my posts represent an unproven theory.

It was my impression that this thread was founded on an interest in explaining the molten metal and long lasting hotspots in the WTC debris piles.

The rest of what you said about me is false and a total misrepresentation David.

Lying is permitted at JREF so there is little I can do when you misrepresent me."

"It represents a ridiculous theory designed only to address the temps underground.

Its quite clear that your theory is undefensible yet you persist in promoting it...

The idea was to begin with an acceptance that there was indeed molten steel (and therefore, hot spots underground capable of producing molten steel), and to then explain how the presence of it fits into a conspiratorial method by which the towers were brought down..."

As per conspiratorial method, Official Story supporters have no problem accepting crashing aircraft and fire.

And I presented an alternative explanation, nano thermite, and how it could account for molten steel.

"First of all, molten metal could indeed have formed in the rubble piles post collapse. KBR SH&E recorded underground temperature ranges "to more than 2,800F" (Professional Safety, May 2002, "SH&E at Ground Zero). So that's no surprise."

bolding is mine

So, we have an acceptance of 'steel-melting' temperatures in the World Trade Center Ground Zero debris pile.

I have proposed a theory as to how these prolonged temperatures might have been maintained.

"What about the thermitic behavior of the dust?

We know that much of the WTC and its contents were pulverized into dust.

We know that the WTC dust is thoroughly impregnated with red chips that ignite at 430 C, at which temperature, they flare up and release a significant amount of energy.

Imagine the conditions in the debris pile where pockets have been created during the collapse and have initial temperatures high enough to ignite the red chips in any exposed dust lining the pocket.

Up above, Ground Zero debris removal operations are constantly disturbing unspent dust which continues to fall into these pockets and ignite.

Surrounded and thermally insulated by the dense mass of the pulverized debris pile, and constantly being re-supplied with falling dust, very high temperatures capable of melting metal could be achieved.

As long as any one of these thermal pockets has a minimal temperature of 430 C and a steady supply of un-ignited dust, the hotspot will perpetuate.

As each pocket is excavated, the temperature inside would immediately begin dropping and once a pocket is exposed sufficiently to reduce the temperature below 430 C, the dust would no longer ignite."

If you wish to oppose my theory jaydeehess, I suggest you bring something more to the table than unsubstantiated bluster.

MM

 

[twinstead]

As per conspiratorial method, Official Story supporters have no problem accepting crashing aircraft and fire.

And I presented an alternative explanation, nano thermite, and how it could account for molten steel.


bolding is mine

So, we have an acceptance of 'steel-melting' temperatures in the World Trade Center Ground Zero debris pile.

I have proposed a theory as to how these prolonged temperatures might have been maintained.



If you wish to oppose my theory jaydeehess, I suggest you bring something more to the table than unsubstantiated bluster.

MM

Every time you start off with We know that much of the WTC and its contents were pulverized into dust and then accuse somebody ELSE of using "unsubstantiated bluster", a puppy dies in heaven

 

[NoahFence]

bolding is mine

So, we have an acceptance of 'steel-melting' temperatures in the World Trade Center Ground Zero debris pile.

I have proposed a theory as to how these prolonged temperatures might have been maintained.

The temperatures of the underground fire post-collapse means absolutely nothing when determining the cause of collapse.

 

[Oystein]

As per conspiratorial method, Official Story supporters have no problem accepting crashing aircraft and fire.
...

Urrr ... just for the record: Do you have doubts that there were crashing aircraft? Or do you doubt there was fire?

 

[Oystein]

...

I have proposed a theory as to how these prolonged temperatures might have been maintained.

...As long as any one of these thermal pockets has a minimal temperature of 430 C and a steady supply of un-ignited dust, the hotspot will perpetuate. ...

...

This theory is a multiple appeal to magic.

First of all, you fantasize about a "steady supply of un-ignited dust" - as if there was a mechanism that continually moved just the right amount of solif fuel to the hotspot, over the course of weeks, without interrruption. This in a chaotic, but largely steady debris pile. That's wishful thinking. buddy. Your magic: Dust is solid and liquid at the same time, and it moves wherever it's needed all by its own!

Secondly, you wish for nanothermite to do exactly what it is designed NOT to do: To burn slowly. The whole point of nano-sizing thermite is to make it burn a lot faster than regular thermite! Your magic: You make nano-thermite burn fast and slow at the same time!

Thirdly, there is a dissonance between keeping the hotspot just above 430°C, and having it hot enough to melt steel. Which is it? Your magic: The nano-thermite fire is fairly cool and extremely hot at the same time!

Fourthly, and that's what kills your theory: You want nanothermite, with its measly energy density of 1.5 kJ/g to keep burning and staying hot for weeks. This defies even the simplest considerations of thermodynamics. Even the best insulation in a debris pile could not do that, unless you have absolutely ridiculous amounts of the stuff at your disposal. Your magic: Little energy turns into great heat - You create energy out of nothing!



In short: With thermite, no matter how you turn it, you can't have it both ways: Burn it slowly over the course of weeks, and make it melt steel in the process.



I guess you will reject the points I raised, because you have zero understanding of the chemical physics and of thermodynamics behind them. You certainly don't have the faintest clue about why thermite can melt steel in the first place. You never grasped what energy density means, and how it relates to your problems. It is only because the science involved here is utterly foreign to you that you can, and must, believe in magic.

Clarke's third law applies to you, Miragememories: Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
Fire and insulation are, like falling things, technologies too advanced for you. You don't know where their science ends and your magic begins.

 

[Miragememories]

"Every time you start off with We know that much of the WTC and its contents were pulverized into dust and then accuse somebody ELSE of using "unsubstantiated bluster", a puppy dies in heaven."

If you believe in heaven, let alone whether puppies exist there, it explains a lot.

You might want to debunk the observations of people who were there and know what in heck they are talking about before you kneejerk to your keyboard twinstead.

"Metal of Honor: The Ironworkers of 9/11" by Rachel Maguire, Spike TV, 2006.
"There were no desks. There were no phones. Maybe now and then you would find a fragment of something.
Basically, everything was just pulverized."

"Everything was dust and metal."

"All there was, was powdered debris and metal. It was a very strange scene."

9/11: The Filmmaker's Commerative Edition," Naudet & Hanlon, 2002.

"And just the debris field, it was amazing, beyond anything I've ever seen like that. I've seen collapses and demolition buildings but nothing like...this was unbelievable. Like I said, there wasn't a door, there wasn't anything to be found. It was all disintegrated, all rubble. Concrete was small little pieces, not even slabs. No desks, no furniture, no computers, no phones, no anything. So I imagine . . . . so I imagine....the people were the same as the building. Nothing left."

First Responders and Firefighters:
"It disappeared into its own dust."

"We were walking in dust up to our ankles."

"All the furnishings and the fixtures inside the building. None of that existed after the collapse. There were no desks. There were no phones, no computers, no copy machines, no chairs, nothing. It had all been pulverized by the tremendous amount of energy which was created by the collapse. It was just pulverized into this dust."

"Where is everybody?"
"Yeah. You didn't find a shard of glass. Anything that looked like it would be used by a person, you just didn't see. It was just concrete, steel..that was it. And dust."

Environmental Medical Doctor, Dr. Steven Levin: Engineers at the firm that built the buildings, best guess to account for the missing 1200 feet of material from each tower, is that large portions simply vaporized into the dust that rained down on New Yorkers immediately after the collapse. It was that powerful. We are talking here about 43,600 windows, 600,000 sq. ft. of glass, 200,000 tons of structural steel, 5 million sq. ft. of gypsum, 6 acres of marble and 425,000 cubic yards of concrete turned in good part into a cloud.

"I was astonished at the degree to which solid materials were turned into pulverized dust as a consequence of that building collapse. I think it was striking."

"..in Oklahoma City you could see pieces of desks and chairs. There was something that told you that this was an office building. At the World Trade Center site, it seems like everything was pulverized."

"I think the lack of artifacts stands out to me quite a bit. I think the fact that I haven't seen a door, I haven't seen a phone, I haven't seen a computer. I haven't seen a door knob. I think that stands out. But for the things that we have seen, every now and then, we'll come across a stuffed animal that might have been on somebody's desk, pictures that were on people's desks that we are trying to restore.

"At first I thought they were moving mounds of dirt around with loaders. And what we were seeing was the ground remains of the World Trade Center and it had a very organized sense to it."

So twinstead, you were saying?

MM

 

[twinstead]

So twinstead, you were saying?

MM

I'm saying nothing you have posted explains how "molten steel" supports your fantasy.

 

[Edx]

Unfortunately these people didnt know that 10 years later conspiracy theorists would be taking them out of context otherwise they may have chose their words more carefully. I wonder if MM can tell us how many of these people think explosives or thermite brought down the towers.

 

[NoahFence]

That would be zero.

I've rarely seen a more dishonest poster to be sure. Thermite can now pulverize the contents?

Twooferism is one giant, massive self-contradiction. It's pathetic.

 

[jaydeehess]

Originally Posted by jaydeehess
"It represents a ridiculous theory designed only to address the temps underground.

Its quite clear that your theory is undefensible yet you persist in promoting it...

The idea was to begin with an acceptance that there was indeed molten steel (and therefore, hot spots underground capable of producing molten steel), and to then explain how the presence of it fits into a conspiratorial method by which the towers were brought down..."

As per conspiratorial method, Official Story supporters have no problem accepting crashing aircraft and fire.

And I presented an alternative explanation, nano thermite, and how it could account for molten steel.

........MM

,,,,,and I am working from a perspective that takes into account the FACT that there were planes that crashed into the towers and the FACT that there wee fires both before and after the collapses.

YOU are working from a perspective that assumes the existance of a substance that has not been shown to have existed at all at ground zero.

The substance you claim was nanothermite, with properties that you ascribe to it willy nilly as long as it suits you, has simply not been shown to be a self oxxidizing material let alone a thermitic compound of any sort.
It has been shown using your own figures that the substance you claim partially consisted of thermite contained very little of the material you claim was thermite and that it could release very little heat.

You also claim that this supposedly thermitic material was continually drifting into the volumes that were hot enough to ignite it yet for some reason there was not enough passage to allow air(oxygen) into these volumes to support rapid oxidation(fire).

The mere claim of thermite is an appeal to a magical substance while the claim of it being able to drift into hot volumes (in rather large quantities) while air cannot is a logical fallacy (fantasy).

The two combine to make your contention/theory utterly ridiculous. That you stick by it and fail to understand the extremes of the problems involved with this line of reasoning indicates a dogmatic approach to the issue.
When will you be opening the "Church of 911 Thermitic Destruction"?

 

[jaydeehess]

If you wish to oppose my theory jaydeehess, I suggest you bring something more to the table than unsubstantiated bluster.

MM

You have yet to substantiate anything you have proposed.
You claim nanothermite but your material is a) not shown to be thermitic and b ) woefully incapable of supplying the amount of heat you would require to acheive what you claim it was doing.

OTOH it has been shown that reports of molten steel in fires is common.

It has been shown that the existance of other molten metals in other fires is common.

It has been shown that underground or covered fires are the most difficult to control and put out and their burning for weeks, months and sometimes deacdes is common.

I proposed an experiment by which one might produce a steel melting furnace with nothing but natural draft and an insulated volume for combustion, as an analogue for what occured in the tower rubble.

 

[sheeplesnshills]

If you believe in heaven, let alone whether puppies exist there, it explains a lot.

You might want to debunk the observations of people who were there and know what in heck they are talking about before you kneejerk to your keyboard twinstead.

[qimg]http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/2549/picture15a.jpg[/qimg]

[qimg]http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/7590/picture13a.jpg[/qimg]
"Metal of Honor: The Ironworkers of 9/11" by Rachel Maguire, Spike TV, 2006.
"There were no desks. There were no phones. Maybe now and then you would find a fragment of something.
Basically, everything was just pulverized."





[qimg]http://img838.imageshack.us/img838/9871/picture17af.jpg[/qimg]
9/11: The Filmmaker's Commerative Edition," Naudet & Hanlon, 2002.


First Responders and Firefighters:
"It disappeared into its own dust."

"We were walking in dust up to our ankles."

"All the furnishings and the fixtures inside the building. None of that existed after the collapse. There were no desks. There were no phones, no computers, no copy machines, no chairs, nothing. It had all been pulverized by the tremendous amount of energy which was created by the collapse. It was just pulverized into this dust."

[qimg]http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/1381/picture20as.jpg[/qimg]
"Where is everybody?"
"Yeah. You didn't find a shard of glass. Anything that looked like it would be used by a person, you just didn't see. It was just concrete, steel..that was it. And dust."

[qimg]http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/2374/picture24a.jpg[/qimg]
Environmental Medical Doctor, Dr. Steven Levin: Engineers at the firm that built the buildings, best guess to account for the missing 1200 feet of material from each tower, is that large portions simply vaporized into the dust that rained down on New Yorkers immediately after the collapse. It was that powerful. We are talking here about 43,600 windows, 600,000 sq. ft. of glass, 200,000 tons of structural steel, 5 million sq. ft. of gypsum, 6 acres of marble and 425,000 cubic yards of concrete turned in good part into a cloud.



[qimg]http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/3444/picture35a.jpg[/qimg]


[qimg]http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/3579/picture47a.jpg[/qimg]


So twinstead, you were saying?

MM

Guys describe what happens when two 110 floor and one 49 floor building collapse and this is evidence of what??????? Do you think a PVC and glass computer monitor would still be intact and work after either falling 1300 feet or having 1300 feet of building fall on it????? you are truly bizarre

 

[Oystein]

Did MM really just quote-mine about a dozend witnesses who say that lots of stuff was pulverized to support a whacky theory about things having been melted???

 

[gumboot]

Miragememories you do realise there's actual photographs of the debris, right? We don't need to rely on witness testimony...

 

[NoahFence]

Did MM really just quote-mine about a dozend witnesses who say that lots of stuff was pulverized to support a whacky theory about things having been melted???

I'd expect nothing less.

 

[Grizzly Bear]

You might want to debunk the observations of people who were there and know what in heck they are talking about before you kneejerk to your keyboard twinstead.
MM

You invested a lot of time in seeking these quotes but did not source a single one providing the full dialogue. May I ask why?

 

[Miragememories]

You invested a lot of time in seeking these quotes but did not source a single one providing the full dialogue. May I ask why?

I suppose you figure they are all liars like anyone who disagrees with you?

MM

 

[Miragememories]

Miragememories you do realise there's actual photographs of the debris, right? We don't need to rely on witness testimony...

Yeah like this;

"I had pretty much given up trying to find some sort of intact filing cabinet but while I was at the compound for the Port Authority police, this ball of metal, about the size of a basketball was delivered to them. This one one probably only survived because it was in the basement. It belonged to an ice cream store."

MM

 

[A W Smith]

I suppose you figure they are all liars like anyone who disagrees with you?

MM

Who disagrees with them Miragememories?

Edited by LashL: 

To correct user name. Do not change another member's name in order to insult.

First Responders and Firefighters:
"It disappeared into its own dust."

"We were walking in dust up to our ankles."

"All the furnishings and the fixtures inside the building. None of that existed after the collapse. There were no desks. There were no phones, no computers, no copy machines, no chairs, nothing. It had all been pulverized by the tremendous amount of energy which was created by the collapse . It was just pulverized into this dust."

do you agree or disagree with the yellow highlighted text ? I certainly agree.

 

[tempesta29]

Unfortunately these people didnt know that 10 years later conspiracy theorists would be taking them out of context otherwise they may have chose their words more carefully. I wonder if MM can tell us how many of these people think explosives or thermite brought down the towers.

When an eyewitness says he saw a steel beam dripping molten, how else can you interpret that?