Merged So there was melted steel

[ozeco41]

Desperate for "debate" at any price???

I think 'desperate for righteous indignation at any price' is better. I was correct when I wrote:



http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11141969&postcount=298

This latter group do not want people who have been taken in partially or completely by 9/11 truth claims to understand the claims or the related issues any better. That is the very, very last thing they want; it would mean the angry argument would eventually end and their source of self-affirmation eventually dry up.

Agreed - your statement is more explicit BUT it was the reason I put "scare quotes" around "debate".

So many statements are designed to maintain self-affirmation and fabricated anger as you say.

There is also a sub-current of maintaining mediocrity as a comfort zone.

 

[jaydeehess]

But again, this thread gives you melted steel; what does it mean for your CD claims

^^^ The crux of the thread topic^^^

Oddly though, it seems that this inquiry is getting ignored and diverted over and over again, from both sides of the 9/11 issue.

 

[jaydeehess]

Its really very simple

Yes in this thread I won't even contend there was no molten steel. I will do this so that I can finally get some answers as to how the presence of it means anything malicious.

As such I would like to know:

Is this supposed to mean thermite was used?

If so how much thermite (a self oxidizing agent) is needed to still be reacting six weeks after initiation?

Let's focus on JUST THIS ONE point then shall we?

Molten Steel = thermite use Yes OR No?

IF Yes, Then how much?

If no, then we'll move onto Travis' other inquiries.

How about it Notconvinced?
AClark, your thoughts?

 

[AClark]

Molten Steel = thermite use Yes OR No?

Already answered. While melted steel can be an indicator for a high incendiary, molten steel in and of itself is only proof of sustained high temperature.

Therefore molten steel does not provide proof of thermite. However, one should look at the context of the molten steel and provide a hypothesis for its origin, not just look to confirm or deny one theory. If thermite did not melt the steel, what did? We would certainly need to look at the surrounding environment. Did the steel melt where it was found, or did it flow? Is there anything else in the steel? How long was it molten?

One thing I haven't seen mentioned, is where 3 of the engines went. I know one was in the street, and one may have gone down an elevator shaft, leaving two others somewhere. Absent their normal operating conditions, is it not possible that the engine could then reach temperatures beyond 1600C?

 

[Andy_Ross]

As there was no evidence of molten steel it's all academic.

 

[beachnut]

Already answered. While melted steel can be an indicator for a high incendiary, molten steel in and of itself is only proof of sustained high temperature.

Therefore molten steel does not provide proof of thermite. However, one should look at the context of the molten steel and provide a hypothesis for its origin, not just look to confirm or deny one theory. If thermite did not melt the steel, what did? We would certainly need to look at the surrounding environment. Did the steel melt where it was found, or did it flow? Is there anything else in the steel? How long was it molten?

One thing I haven't seen mentioned, is where 3 of the engines went. I know one was in the street, and one may have gone down an elevator shaft, leaving two others somewhere. Absent their normal operating conditions, is it not possible that the engine could then reach temperatures beyond 1600C?

Where is your evidence in the real world for melted steel? The OP is about if there was melted steel, and you said it would not be proof of anything of value to 911 truth.

911 truth made up lies, from thermite to DEW, nukes and assorted BS.

Jet engine fuel supply ended at impact, the fuel pump failed, the engine driven fuel pump had no fuel, the engine fire stopped; jet engine cools... but it is no good to stop your engine from sustained cruise throttle, or full throttle; not good for the engine to cool that quick, the residual heat will can damage the engine... but in this case, the engine would start to cool instantly, even as the jet fuel fireball surrounds the area... no melted steel from the engine.

It is nearly instantly; when I shut off the fuel t-handle, or move the throttle to cut-off, the engine fire stops... the fuel in the system is dumped or recycled to a sump... end of fire

On 911 the turbine blades and fire present at impact, and all hot section of the jet engine parts ejected at impact, over 400 to 500 C, instantly set the jet fuel spray on fire inside the WTC.

The hot section of the turbine is hot because the engine is running and compressing air to run the fire with fuel... the hot section cools when the air and fuel are cut off at impact, end of jet engine fire, beginning of jet fuel fire ball when fuel fumes and mist are ignited by hot parts above the auto ignition temperature of the fuel.

You might not believe how fast the jet engine cools when the fuel is stopped; we were prohibited from shutting down engines in flight for practice unless we cooled the engine from cruise throttle settings; when restarted the EGT was extremely cool compared to the engines sitting at cruise; lower than when we cooled the engine at idle. (actually we were not allowed to practice engine shutdown... but... [suppose to the keep the engine at idle for engine out practice])

There was no melted steel found at the WTC - the jet engines were crushed by the WTC collapse if in the WTC.
But you did answer the OP, and implied making up BS about melted steel does not support the many varied idiotic claims made by 911 truth pertaining to melted steel.

 

[Travis]

I doubt the engines had anything to do with it. They likely just disintegrated in all the mayhem. My own best guess is that it was a furnace effect. I know that even simple fires can get to really high temperatures given the right conditions.

I once got a cast iron wood stove red hot with just wood and proper drafting.

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

I doubt the engines had anything to do with it. They likely just disintegrated in all the mayhem. My own best guess is that it was a furnace effect. I know that even simple fires can get to really high temperatures given the right conditions.

I once got a cast iron wood stove red hot with just wood and proper drafting.

I once melted a cast iron stove, with a good draft and fine Cannal Coal dust.

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Already answered. While melted steel can be an indicator for a high incendiary, molten steel in and of itself is only proof of sustained high temperature.

Therefore molten steel does not provide proof of thermite. However, one should look at the context of the molten steel and provide a hypothesis for its origin, not just look to confirm or deny one theory. If thermite did not melt the steel, what did? We would certainly need to look at the surrounding environment. Did the steel melt where it was found, or did it flow? Is there anything else in the steel? How long was it molten?

One thing I haven't seen mentioned, is where 3 of the engines went. I know one was in the street, and one may have gone down an elevator shaft, leaving two others somewhere. Absent their normal operating conditions, is it not possible that the engine could then reach temperatures beyond 1600C?

Steel.

 

[jaydeehess]

Already answered. While melted steel can be an indicator for a high incendiary, molten steel in and of itself is only proof of sustained high temperature.

Thanks, yes I recall you stating that.

Therefore molten steel does not provide proof of thermite. However, one should look at the context of the molten steel and provide a hypothesis for its origin, not just look to confirm or deny one theory.

I already touched on that one. Molten steel has been reported in other large fires. Therefore it is not uncommon in large fires, therefore while determining the mechanisms that produce areas where enough heat to melt steel is generated , may be of acedemic and fire fighting interest, it is not relevant wrt any conspiracy theory.

If thermite did not melt the steel, what did? We would certainly need to look at the surrounding environment. Did the steel melt where it was found, or did it flow? Is there anything else in the steel? How long was it molten?

Sure, an acedemic interest but of no relevance for any conspiracy theory.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned, is where 3 of the engines went. I know one was in the street, and one may have gone down an elevator shaft, leaving two others somewhere. Absent their normal operating conditions, is it not possible that the engine could then reach temperatures beyond 1600C?

Given that the engines lost fuel supply within the first second after impact, injested a dumpload of office contents, and bounced off columns and concrete floors, I would have to believe that they weren't running and keeping those temps for very long. Couple that with the relatively small volume of the engines experiencing those high temps and we are not talking about a very great amount of heat energy(quite a different thing than temperature).

 

[jaydeehess]

I doubt the engines had anything to do with it. They likely just disintegrated in all the mayhem. My own best guess is that it was a furnace effect. I know that even simple fires can get to really high temperatures given the right conditions.

I once got a cast iron wood stove red hot with just wood and proper drafting.

Had some dry balsam (not balsa) and scared myself at the noises coming from my steel wood stove and steel stove pipes. Fire was roaring, the roar coming from both stove and stove pipe. The steel was making lots of 'plinking' sounds. I shut the dampers right down and got a high pitched whistle from the small air leaks around the doors. Afterwards on opening the doors I found it had melted the door gasket and I had to replace two fire bricks in the fire box. Also replaced the stove pipe and chimney. Lowest section of stove pipe was erorded and thinned. The smoke shelf in the stove was a bit warped but the stove itself was still good because of the fire brick lining.

I still use balsam but only mix a stick at a time with other woods like poplar or pine.


On another occassion I was cleaning up an old neglected lilac bush on a new property. Lilacs spread via sucker roots and old stalks die off. I put all the old dry stalks vertically in a 45 gallon drum burn barrel on bricks(cut off drum ends, sit drum on bricks and you get air in at the bottom)

Well when I lit it I had light blue solid flames, on a clear sunny day, shooting four feet above the barrel producing little visible smoke. It looked not unlike a small model of a jet engine on afterburner pointed at the sky and the top half of the barrel was red to orange. That was back in the late 1980s. Had I known that I would be having these conversations in this century, I would have arranged to have an aluminum, a copper , and a steel rod laying accross the top of the barrel.

 

[beachnut]

I drove across the country non-stop, and my exhaust manifold was glowing the same color as the sparks from the WTC... keep driving, keep the air flowing...

911 truth, a movement based on BS, and overwhelming ignorance with a solid record of failure...

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Had some dry balsam (not balsa) and scared myself at the noises coming from my steel wood stove and steel stove pipes. Fire was roaring, the roar coming from both stove and stove pipe. The steel was making lots of 'plinking' sounds. I shut the dampers right down and got a high pitched whistle from the small air leaks around the doors. Afterwards on opening the doors I found it had melted the door gasket and I had to replace two fire bricks in the fire box. Also replaced the stove pipe and chimney. Lowest section of stove pipe was erorded and thinned. The smoke shelf in the stove was a bit warped but the stove itself was still good because of the fire brick lining.

I still use balsam but only mix a stick at a time with other woods like poplar or pine.


On another occassion I was cleaning up an old neglected lilac bush on a new property. Lilacs spread via sucker roots and old stalks die off. I put all the old dry stalks vertically in a 45 gallon drum burn barrel on bricks(cut off drum ends, sit drum on bricks and you get air in at the bottom)

Well when I lit it I had light blue solid flames, on a clear sunny day, shooting four feet above the barrel producing little visible smoke. It looked not unlike a small model of a jet engine on afterburner pointed at the sky and the top half of the barrel was red to orange. That was back in the late 1980s. Had I known that I would be having these conversations in this century, I would have arranged to have an aluminum, a copper , and a steel rod laying accross the top of the barrel.

Speaking of fires that don't produce smoke,Air Curtain Burning: http://youtu.be/cHrWcwUyt2s
Smoke comes from carbon soot, with enough air and heat it will burn.

 

[Jrrarglblarg]

So, the wall boards, in fire, produce sulfuric acid which eats corrodes steel?

Are there minimum temperatures, quantities involved? Some sort of evidence that isn't anecdotal? I'll have to double check, but I thought the official sources couldn't account for the sulphur?

It's not anecdotal but a well known phenomenon that prolonged fires break down gypsym (CaSO4-2H2O). The first step is driving off the water molecules stuck to the calcium sulfate, which makes gypsum. In reducing fires (as opposed to oxidizing) the oxygen in various chemicals get scavenged by more aggressive chemical reactions, in this case leaving the calcium and sulfur chemically available for other reactions.

It's not rocket science. Try google.

 

[Dave Rogers]

Already answered. While melted steel can be an indicator for a high incendiary, molten steel in and of itself is only proof of sustained high temperature.

In other words, [/thread].

However, one should look at the context of the molten steel and provide a hypothesis for its origin, not just look to confirm or deny one theory. If thermite did not melt the steel, what did? We would certainly need to look at the surrounding environment. Did the steel melt where it was found, or did it flow? Is there anything else in the steel? How long was it molten?

At this point, though, you're asking factual questions about hypothetical melted steel. The only answer is that, without evidence for the actual existence of molten steel, these are equivalent to asking about the colour of an invisible dragon's scales.

Dave