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Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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Mach, he told the investigator that he hadn't seen Raffaele or Amanda the morning of the murder discovery. It's in Massei. He later says he did see her.

He lied at least once.

No, you must know what you talk about. You must read what he actually said in order to say he lied.
If he said he didn't remember the first time, maybe he lied. But maybe not: maybe he was actually not sure or not thinking he saw the defendants.
By a little of experience, I can say that is how a huge number of witnesses behave. If they are not sure, they say they don't remeber anything special. Then they think about it and after a while they report information.
 
The cops? Why not what Raffaele had overwitten when he surfed the internet from nov. 2 to nov 5.?

There might be some of that, but I seem to recall that the most critical information was overwritten with a date stamp that corresponded to a time when the cops had custody of the computer.
 
No, you must know what you talk about. You must read what he actually said in order to say he lied.
If he said he didn't remember the first time, maybe he lied. But maybe not: maybe he was actually not sure or not thinking he saw the defendants.
By a little of experience, I can say that is how a huge number of witnesses behave. If they are not sure, they say they don't remeber anything special. Then they think about it and after a while they report information.

Kind of like when the cops question them right after the crime they don't know anything, but when Corriere Dell'Umbria asks them a year later they know all sorts of things, like what time it was even though they have no watch, how loud the scream was even though they couldn't hear through the window, and what the girl was wearing even though he never saw her?

That kind of "information"?
 
Raffaele is on Italian TV.

One particularly deluded bunny on the bunny-forum asks:
Why on earth is Biff giving interviews? Even though it was hyper-controlled, that's pure insanity in an ongoing case.

Because it's over, darling :D Maybe you didn't notice, but the innocents are no longer in precautionary detention, they are absolved and free, enjoying life ( something all the bitter bunnies and kittens should try ).
No one in right mind believes Cassazione would grant retrial to the prosecution, if and there is a huge if they will try to appeal.
 
No, you must know what you talk about. You must read what he actually said in order to say he lied.
If he said he didn't remember the first time, maybe he lied. But maybe not: maybe he was actually not sure or not thinking he saw the defendants.
By a little of experience, I can say that is how a huge number of witnesses behave. If they are not sure, they say they don't remeber anything special. Then they think about it and after a while they report information.

Well what did he actually say? Well I would say it's about the same with Amanda - she thought she met Patrick but later remembered she hadn't.

He's`a liar.
 
I will jsut say that i am happy that this case turned out the way it did. I am not an expert by any means, but in the end I think the right decision was made.

I hope Amanda can have a good life now that this is all over for her.
 
That's a good question, but I'm also still confused over the state of the hard drives for these machines. Were they or were they not destroyed? Or did the prosecution simply not allow the defense access to examine them (which I would think would be illegal)?

All the drives were eventually recovered except Amanda's. However, as Raffaele's defense points out, 520 files on Raffaeles computer were altered by the cops playing around with it before the drive was cloned. Some of those files may have proven what Raffaele was claiming, who can say at this point?
 
What about Meredith's computer? Did they recover her pictures and so on for her family?

Rolfe.
 
And anyway we all know exactly how Lumumba was treated. He was insulted and kicked in the first hour after his arrest. He was not tortured and not forced to confess, nor questioned, nor detained abusively. He never claimed abuses except the said mistreatment before the preliminary judge nor in any other venue.

Only kicked for an hour, that's OK then.

I am curious why you are not concerned over being sued by the cops for claiming the cops kicked Patrick. Is this different from Amanda's parents in some way? Have the cops admitted they kicked him?
 
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I am curious on the issue of this case file that has come under discussion recently. It seems the prosecution gets to pick and choose what goes in and what stays out.

Does that sound like a way to guarantee a fair trial? I assume the defense gets access to this file. Yet we have no mention in the appeal documents that Curatolo told the cops the next day he didn't see anything. Was this left out of the case file? There is also no mention of the disco owners telling the cops at the time of Curatolo's statement that no disco buses were running. This also came out in Hellmann's court but no mention in the appeal documents. Was this left out of the case file? Of course it turns out that Curatolo was under investigation for dealing drugs. Was this also left out?

HMMMMMMMMMMM.
 
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I am curious on the issue of this case file that has come under discussion recently. It seems the prosecution gets to pick and choose what goes in and what stays out.

Does that sound like a way to guarantee a fair trial? I assume the defense gets access to this file. Yet we have no mention in the appeal documents that Curatolo told the cops the next day he didn't see anything. Was this left out of the case file? There is also no mention of the disco owners telling the cops at the time of Curatolo's statement that no disco buses were running. This also came out in Hellmann's court but no mention in the appeal documents. Was this left out of the case file? Of course it turns out that Curatolo was under investigation for dealing drugs. Was this also left out?

HMMMMMMMMMMM.


Yes, it certainly appears either that the Italian rules on discovery are intrinsically exceptionally unfair to the defence, or that the police and prosecutors in this particular case egregiously flouted their own discovery rules.

Greetings again all, by the way! I've been keeping up with the thread while not posting, and I have to say that I'm somewhat saddened (but not surprised) by the ongoing closed-mindedness and illogicality of the pro-guilt commentators, both here and (especially) on .org/.net. But then I suppose there are those who continue to insist that homeopathy really does work or that Nostradamus really could predict the future - even some who appear to be well-educated and studious. It is as clear as day - and has been for years now - that there was never sufficient evidence to find Knox or Sollecito guilty of participation in Meredith's murder. It's also perfectly clear that the balance of available evidence suggests that neither Knox nor Sollecito had anything whatsoever to do with the murder. It still makes me shake my head though to see people attempting to argue otherwise - especially those who claim to be lawyers of some kind, since their judgement in this case is devastatingly wrong, and leads me to believe that they either are not who they claim to be, or that they should not be advising clients on the law.

My main motivation for posting this evening is that there was an extremely interesting programme on Channel 4 tonight here in the UK. It was presented by Derren Brown, who's firmly in the Randi camp of scepticism, mysticism, human psychology and debunking. Tonight's programme examined how a perfectly normal, well-educated, well-balanced young man (around 21-25 years of age by my estimation) can be led via coercive techniques to confess to a murder he didn't commit. While there are significant differences from the case with Knox, there are striking parallels, chief among which is the idea of convincing the subject that he (or she) cannot trust his (or her) own memory of events. And when this idea of untrustworthy memory is augmented by seemingly solid evidence of guilt, a perfectly normal young person can be persuaded to admit to virtually anything, including a full confession to murder.

If I find a youtube link to the programme which has global rights, I'll post it. I think it's a programme which strongly deserves to be seen when examining what might have happened in the Perugia police HQ on the night of 5th/6th November 2007.
 
Only kicked for an hour, that's OK then.

I am curious why you are not concerned over being sued by the cops for claiming the cops kicked Patrick. Is this different from Amanda's parents in some way? Have the cops admitted they kicked him?


Yes, I'm totally and utterly perplexed as to how Machiavelli can 1) claim that it's possible to be sure about how Lumumba was treated (and just how much he was or was not abused)*, and 2) seemingly claim that it's "OK" for the police to have kicked Lumumba around for an hour.

As far as I can see, Lumumba made extensive claims of police brutality in his interview with the Mail in December 2007, including racial and physical abuse during his arrest, and further abuse (amounting to physical torture) and coercion to confess during his detention in custody. Now, Lumumba might have been making some or all of this up**, but one would then have to ask what he would stand to gain by inventing some or all of these accusations (answer: nothing, and in fact he had an awful lot to lose).

I tend therefore to believe that essentially everything that Lumumba said in the Mail interview regarding his treatment by the Perugia police was the truth. And ironically enough, in any retrial of Knox on the criminal slander charge (i.e. if the slander charge is successfully appealed in the Supreme Court by Knox and sent for retrial at appeal court level), Lumumba's interview might come back to bite him if it's used to establish a pattern of behaviour on behalf of the "crack" Perugia flying squad. To me, that would be the final, theatrically-beautiful irony of this case.


* Machiavelli wrote (my bolding): "And anyway we all know exactly how Lumumba was treated. He was insulted and kicked in the first hour after his arrest. He was not tortured and not forced to confess, nor questioned, nor detained abusively. He never claimed abuses except the said mistreatment before the preliminary judge nor in any other venue."

** Note, though, that I have little doubt that Lumumba actually spoke these accusations to the Mail reporter, and I strongly believe that the Mail have Lumuba's words on tape - otherwise the Mail would have been taking extraordinary risks in printing these directly-attributed quotes which, after all, contain very serious allegations against the Perugia police.
 
This is the theory, the doctrine to which all innocentisti cling: only the first bite, the rest doesn’t matter. Sorry if I flatly reject the doctrine. This theory is simply unsupported in scientific literature.
It is true that the actual TLAG depends on quite a number of things (i. e. type of food/food particle size, gender, body size, position, movements, deseases,...). But no matter what you assume, the TLAG is limited as the stomach will start to pass on the chyme eventually.

The time of death is uncertain. LJ’s charts report the results of experiments under a number of controlled conditions on a limited scope.

Yep, but that's what we got. I think if somebody would conduct a study to find if a TLAG of well over 180+ minutes is reasonable it would be of great help to future forensic analysis. The articles I have read so far all show that the TLAG of a healthy person is somewhere between 30 and 90 minutes under laboratory conditions. So if we double that to 180 it is already a big stretch but still would put the TOD to 21:30 tops.
Of course this does not give a "certain" TOD, but it's certain to a reasonable degree that a TOD around 21:00 - 21:30 is more likely than at any later time. And this is what I think will be Hellmann's reasoning in the report.

Literature reports about mistakes of 12 hours based on this assumptions on stomach emptying time criterion.
Forensics indeed use the gastric emptying data to determine the TOD if certain information is available (I think they need the time of the last meal, but I'm not sure). However, they usually rely on the actual emptying after the TLAG and not the TLAG itself. Also I'd like to know where you got this 12 hour error from. In 12 hours two meals are passed on completely, so how could they err by that much?

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Osterwelle
 
It is true that the actual TLAG depends on quite a number of things (i. e. type of food/food particle size, gender, body size, position, movements, deseases,...). But no matter what you assume, the TLAG is limited as the stomach will start to pass on the chyme eventually.



Yep, but that's what we got. I think if somebody would conduct a study to find if a TLAG of well over 180+ minutes is reasonable it would be of great help to future forensic analysis. The articles I have read so far all show that the TLAG of a healthy person is somewhere between 30 and 90 minutes under laboratory conditions. So if we double that to 180 it is already a big stretch but still would put the TOD to 21:30 tops.
Of course this does not give a "certain" TOD, but it's certain to a reasonable degree that a TOD around 21:00 - 21:30 is more likely than at any later time. And this is what I think will be Hellmann's reasoning in the report.


Forensics indeed use the gastric emptying data to determine the TOD if certain information is available (I think they need the time of the last meal, but I'm not sure). However, they usually rely on the actual emptying after the TLAG and not the TLAG itself. Also I'd like to know where you got this 12 hour error from. In 12 hours two meals are passed on completely, so how could they err by that much?

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Osterwelle


Machivelli is sadly ignorant of the underlying science and physiological factors underpinning the ToD argument. As many others have already pointed out in response, in this particular instance we are fortunate enough to have a near-unique set of factors which enable us to confidently place practical limits on ToD. These factors are:

1) the known start time of the meal (around 6.15-6.30pm start to the meal (Pizza course), with a dessert at perhaps around 7.45-8.00pm);

2) the known composition and size of the meal (pizza then apple crumble, small to moderate volume);

3) the known fact that the victim was still alive some 150 minutes after the start of the meal, at 9pm;

4) the known fact that T(lag) - which is ALWAYS measured from the start of the meal for reasons which should be obvious to anyone who stops to think about it for more than a minute - is rarely longer than 150 minutes, is almost never longer than 180 minutes, and is relatively statistically vanishingly improbable to be longer than 240 minutes;

5) the known fact that recognisable elements of the pizza were found in Meredith's stomach at autopsy;

6) the known fact that the 500ml contents of the stomach at autopsy are entirely consistent with the volume of food likely to have been consumed by the victim at her final meal;

7) the known fact that there was no food (chyme) matter in the victim's duodenum at autopsy, or in any of the rest of her c. 5-metre small intestine apart from at the very end;

8) the clear ability therefore to deduce that the entire meal (pizza + apple crumble) was still entirely within the victim's stomach when she died;

When all these factors are assessed by anyone with a rational and scientific mind, it becomes easy to deduce, with a very high degree of statistical probability, that the victim was killed between 9pm and 10pm, and that within that range the strong likelihood is that death occurred before 9.30pm.

Machivelli will see that Hellmann will likely make such a point in his motivations report. I realise that he won't accept the argument (just as advocates of Homeopathy's pharmacological benefits are blind to the science which utterly refutes their "argument"), but perhaps he ought to stop to wonder why even the prosecutors conceded a pre-10pm ToD in the appeal trial.......
 
... no possible logical scenario to explain the isolated blood footprint attributing it to Rudy, ...

Typical selective reasoning, characteristic of conclusion-based thinking. An isolated footprint belonging to the killer has no explanation if we suppose it to be from Guede, but somehow the same objection doesn't apply if it is attributed to Sollecito!

Machiavelli, you are flailing. We have seen the photos, and the big toe in the print clearly corresponds to Guede's foot, and is quite unlike Sollecito's. All of your endlessly repeated blandishments don't alter what we can see with our own eyes.
 
Misinformation from Follain and the reviewer, both: and this is supposed to be the definitive account??? :mad::mad:

At the centre of it all is Knox, the eccentric daughter of a wealthy Seattle family, casting her shadow over the whole case. Just 19 at the time of the murder, she invites judgment as a lamp draws moths. Even Follain, for all his attempts at objectivity, occasionally lapses. About her Facebook page, he writes: “Amanda filled in the section 'Interested in’ with the single word: 'men’.” Anyone with a Facebook account will tell you that this is simply the pro forma way of expressing orientation, but in Follain’s hands it becomes a byword for licentiousness. He lingers on Knox’s oddities, such as her habit of doing impromptu yoga, as much as the story-changing which led to her original conviction with Sollecito in 2009.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/...746/Death-in-Perugia-John-Follain-review.html
 
A friend of mine works in nuclear medicine. She actually does these stomach-emptying scans. While she cheerfully agreed that in some patients "the stuff just sits there and doesn't move", these people are abnormal. They're ill. "That's why we're doing the scan."

She just shook her head sadly at the very idea that a healthy young woman who had eaten a wholesome meal would have an empty duodenum more than three hours after she started her last meal. And yes, in order to do that work, and understand the significance of the abnormal results, it it necessary to know what is normal.

Rolfe.
 
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