have you watched derren browns "the experiment"

[Rrose Selavy]

Despite what he says, he has of course been caught doing both (using the same audience plants in multiple performances, using actors, ).

"..of Course been caught..."? When ? Where was this reported?
You keep saying this with conviction but despite being asked several times have come up with no evidence.

 

[Azrael 5]

"..of Course been caught..."? When ? Where was this reported?
You keep saying this with conviction but despite being asked several times have come up with no evidence.

I have hopefully proven my magic credentials in PM with John Albert and so when I say that statement is rubbish, and in his live shows(at least)he does not need stooges for any effect, maybe he will listen. Or better idea would be to -as you suggest Rrose -prove it or show an effect that MUST be stooges.

 

[bencg]

I agree to a point, he has explained things before on his shows, but he is walking a very thin line. I don't think he needs to spell out that he can't predict the lottery numbers though (etc.), people who believe that will probably believe whatever else comes their way as well.

Out of TV he is very open about it all, but he could stress being a magician / skeptic even more often in his shows. This episode was too much for me, the whole thing seemed to completely endorse the idea that Robert Kennedy's murderer was or could've been programmed to do it, a step too far in my opinion.

I find Derren Brown infuriating in that I often appreciate stuff he writes and I like his shows on exposing psychics and faith healers but his mentalism type tricks often seem to go right into woo woo land. He may not intend it this way (although I think he deliberately treads the line) but about 90% of people (ie. non-skeptics!) who see these shows think he has 'real powers'. Like he can really speed read with a photographic memory, or you can really suggest and/or program people etc. That to me crosses the line, but to be honest I feel the same way about most mentalists, and unlike magicians mentalist acts have to a large degree traditionally traded on the psychic/paranormal shtick.

 

[bencg]

Was it here: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=5641545#post5641545

"...seemingly at random he managed to pick the same people to volunteer for a trick that he'd had volunteer the year before"

I'm pretty sure I read it at the magic cafe, and that it was referring to shows on the same tour - but I can't say for sure, memory is a fickle thing. And like I said, an anomynous post hardly proves anything in itself.

 

[bencg]

"Do you recognize me? I'm Derren Brown, the TV magician. Now don't look over in that direction over to the right, but there's a camera and we're being filmed for a TV program. If you want to be on the show, indicate by pointing off to your left as if you're giving me directions."

"OK now, I'm going to hand you this water bottle, and you respond by giving me your wallet..."

etc.

Then they overdub different vocals into the scene in post-production.

Instant Stooging. I am pretty sure that the likes of David Blaine have used this before, not sure about Brown. I have seen this used live but its risky, I've seen it backfire as well. With editing and a lot of takes its easy to see how this can be used effectively on TV.

 

[Zeuzzz]

It's purely woo.

Its not purely woo, its quite simple really. He makes out that certain situations are ordinary, and to the average viewer they make seem it; as most people forget about the camera filming it and whatever is behind it.

When people have a huge camera, a mic dangling above their head, lights in their eyes and 3-5 camera men and directors behind this staring at them they will not act ordinary (unless they are extremely confident secure people). I think that usually the pressure for them to just go along with the trick and act hypnotized is far less than not complying and screwing up the show.

 

[John Albert]

As usual, the way Derren presented it was intentionally bogus:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wisdom_of_Crowds#In_popular_culture




But afaik, in certain circumstances the idea is legit:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wisdom_of_Crowds

The question is, what exactly are those circumstances, and what are the margins of error for all of them?

Is this really an "effect," or simply some kind of statistical anomaly.

 

[Checkmite]

It's a magic show, so they have to keep that air of mystique. Most magicians rely on some form of ideological misdirection as well as the mechanical slight-of-hand. Not everybody can be Penn & Teller, you know. Within the context of the show, it's all "magic," the supernatural, mysterious unknown, the inexplicable, etc. Derren Brown just chooses to couch his tricks in this pop-psychology woo instead of supernatural or ESP woo. It's merely an "update" of the old traditions; that's the only difference. Because it's a magic show intended as entertainment, I'm not too bummed out that he does that.

I am, I'm afraid to say. A magician who yammers vaguely about ancient secrets of the Orient giving him the ability to make things disappear - presuming, for a moment, that some of his audience honestly "believe" it - has not planted any potentially dangerous ideas in the heads of his audience; they can go home and do internet searches forever and will never find ancient schools teaching magical arts of making things disappear (they may find sites selling magic instruction, which of course isn't a problem because these sites are honest about selling the secrets to illusions for people who wish to perform them). Whereas Derren Brown's un-vague, quite detailed and repeatedly-demonstrated-and-explained "psychological techniques" are quite potentially damaging indeed, because when people do web searches on these things they will find no end of "schools" wanting to take their money to teach them how to use these "effective psychological techniques".

There is no real "magic" to be damaged or dis-served by baloney-laden explanations, true - but there is real "psychology", and Brown's exploitation of it is a disservice - both to the field itself and those people who are convinced there's something to his explanations because they are aware that psychology is a real thing, but don't know enough about it to filter Brown's distortions out of their understanding of the genuine principles.

 

[John Albert]

Yeah, you have a point.

 

[John Albert]

I have hopefully proven my magic credentials in PM with John Albert and so when I say that statement is rubbish, and in his live shows(at least)he does not need stooges for any effect, maybe he will listen. Or better idea would be to -as you suggest Rrose -prove it or show an effect that MUST be stooges.

You've proven that you know some stuff, but you haven't proven that Derren Brown does not employ plants or coach his audience participants to just play along with the illusion. When I watch his performances, I often notice little details that point to that kind of phony baloney.

 

[Checkmite]

As an aside, though...am I the only one who finds the argument over stooges versus "sleight of hand" to be somewhat silly?

I brought up the use of stooges WRT Brown simply because that's how I saw his acts being accomplished; if someone else thinks a gimmick or two was involved instead that's perfectly fine - the argument was that Brown doesn't use any "psychological techniques" at all, which is why his (very) occasional admission that his acts are a "combination of magic and genuine psychological methods", among other things, doesn't exonerate him in my eyes - because it's no less a lie than his claims in the shows themselves that it's all "psychological techniques". Whether he uses an actor (Simon Pegg is an actor, don't forget) or breaks into peoples' houses and reads their diaries to find out what they wrote in the envelope, the point is he's not hypnotizing, "suggesting", manipulating, or any other sort of babble, making his insistence - qualified or not - that he's integrating "genuine psychology" into his tricks simply untrue.

But the digression over stooges versus other deceptive methods strikes me rather like two thieves arguing over whether breaking a window to get into a house is more or less "honorable" than picking a door lock. It amazes and amuses me that there's a context whereby picking someone's pocket and forging their handwriting are perfectly fine and even more "ethical", while employing actors to achieve the same effect is considered a mean-spirited accusation against which one's honor must be defended.

 

[AdMan]

But the digression over stooges versus other deceptive methods strikes me rather like two thieves arguing over whether breaking a window to get into a house is more or less "honorable" than picking a door lock. It amazes and amuses me that there's a context whereby picking someone's pocket and forging their handwriting are perfectly fine and even more "ethical", while employing actors to achieve the same effect is considered a mean-spirited accusation against which one's honor must be defended.

I can understand your point, and I think it has something to do with how the performer is seen within the magic/mentalism community, and in a sense how the "art" is being performed (and yes, it is seen as art by many who do it). Anyone can appear to do genuine mindreading if all you are doing is using a stooge to lie for you. That takes no skill at all, and you would be laughed at by most other performers. To non-magicians/mentalists, the effect might be exactly the same, but I can assure you that a performer who was known to be accomplishing his effects via stooges would have no respect within the magic or mentalist community (and likely wouldn't sell very many books or videos). It would be seen as a rather "cheap," inelegant, and yes, rather dishonest way to do things, if that makes sense.

As Derren Brown himself says in Tricks of the Mind, using stooges is is "artistically repugnant and simply unnecessary".

Having said that, I have no idea if DB has ever used stooges. He may very well have done so on occasion.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

You could say the same about camera tricks. There's an understanding between a TV magician and his audience that it's the magician who's doing the trick, not the TV camera.

That got me into a long discussion elsewhere about DB's lottery prediction trick, where some of his fans said "he would never use camera tricks" and it became increasingly plain to me that he had.

 

[Azrael 5]

You could say the same about camera tricks. There's an understanding between a TV magician and his audience that it's the magician who'd doing the trick, not the TV camera.

That got me into a long discussion elsewhere about DB's lottery prediction trick, where some of his fans said "he would never use camera tricks" and it became increasingly plain to me that he had.

Alhtough not proof he did.

 

[Azrael 5]

You've proven that you know some stuff, but you haven't proven that Derren Brown does not employ plants or coach his audience participants to just play along with the illusion. When I watch his performances, I often notice little details that point to that kind of phony baloney.

Without going through his whole repetoire and explaining each effect I am confident he doesnt use stooges.From my own knowledge and that of other experienced mentalists.
Seems "stooges" has replaced people crying"camera tricks" or "it's up his sleeve"

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Alhtough not proof he did.

Naturally, we'll never have proof. <edit> But he did, though.

What would have impressed me would have been if, after convincing me of how he had done the trick, he had revealed something that showed I was wrong.

He did show the audience a handheld camera in long shot, then cut to what was definitely a fixed pedestal camera with fake "shake" added. If that was misdirection which we were supposed to spot, then it was far too subtle. What proportion of the audience do you imagine spotted it, and what was the use of such misdirection if he didn't go on to show us that we were barking up the wrong tree?

If he even just said "I didn't use a camera trick", that would do for me. He didn't.

 

[Rrose Selavy]

You've proven that you know some stuff, but you haven't proven that Derren Brown does not employ plants or coach his audience participants to just play along with the illusion. When I watch his performances, I often notice little details that point to that kind of phony baloney.

Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't, but you're the one who made the assertion that he's already been "caught of course" using actors. Again for the umpteenth time. Where's the evidence?

 

[Azrael 5]

Naturally, we'll never have proof. <edit> But he did, though.

What would have impressed me would have been if, after convincing me of how he had done the trick, he had revealed something that showed I was wrong.

He did show the audience a handheld camera in long shot, then cut to what was definitely a fixed pedestal camera with fake "shake" added. If that was misdirection which we were supposed to spot, then it was far too subtle. What proportion of the audience do you imagine spotted it, and what was the use of such misdirection if he didn't go on to show us that we were barking up the wrong tree?

If he even just said "I didn't use a camera trick", that would do for me. He didn't.

He didnt say "I didnt use magnets/'strings/pixie dust " either. So shall we assume he did? I dont know how he did it,I'd be dissapointed if it was camera trickery,Id prefer a cool magic secret.

 

[Lamuella]

You've proven that you know some stuff, but you haven't proven that Derren Brown does not employ plants or coach his audience participants to just play along with the illusion.

We also haven't proven that he doesn't actually have magical powers. Plus, I have seen no evidence in this thread that he's not a vampire.

 

[Azrael 5]

On the topic of stooges in his live show, initially (first couple of tours) he threw frisbees into crowd-an unpredictable mehtod if you want to land it to your stooge

Latter tours he throws a stuffed toy(monkey) who ever recieves it then throws it behind themselves blindly,that person then is the chosen to go on stage. So talk of stooges is ridiculous.

He throws around 20 frisbees a night,so if he can hit marked people with that accuracy in different venues he's doing the wrong job.