have you watched derren browns "the experiment"

[John Albert]

There's a difference between "It's well known that mentalists use stooges", and "It's well known that this particular mentalist uses stooges". As people were making the second claim, I was asking for evidence of the second claim.

As I said before, I have not worked on his TV show so I claim no firsthand insider knowledge of how he achieves his effects. My opinions are based solely on observation and educated guesses.

However, other people who have attended several of his shows have alleged that he does indeed use audience plants, if not stooges, in approximately the manner I described in my earlier post on page 3 of this thread. Whether these individuals are being truthful in their allegations is, again, debatable.

I repeat, I have no conclusive evidence to back up this claim other than stories I have read, and my own observation that those claims are not inconsistent with the behavior of some of his audience participants on his TV show. I already mentioned my suspicions regarding the behavior of the audience girl in the video posted in the OP:

I already offered an observation about the girl at the beginning of the show whom Brown supposedly beguiled into thinking she couldn't pull her hands apart. Immediately after that display, the people seated near her barely so much as glanced at her, nor she at them. I don't know how many live magic shows, improv, stand-up comedy, or other theater you've witnessed that include audience participation, but that is totally out-of-keeping with the usual behavior patterns of audience members (and their neighbors) who've just been singled out in a performance.

Now I might be reading too much into this, and maybe Derren Brown's audience are unusually polite and attentive, but in those kinds of situations you'll almost always see some exchange of eye contact, sheepish giggles, etc.

Furthermore, Derren Brown has in the past denied the use of video editing and/or camera tricks in his work, and as we have seen, his "Lotto" trick gives the lie to that claim. Therefore, I have no good reason to believe he is not also lying about the use of audience plants or stooges. He has been known to use actors for ancillary roles in his tricks, so how much of a stretch is it for him to take an already willing audience participant and instruct them on giving a performance for the show?

 

[Kuko 4000]

Hey guys, especially GrandMasterFox and John Albert, I want to apologize for the tone in my postings, the fact is that I'm a big fan of Derren Brown's work (be it skeptical or woo-flirting in nature) and it bothers me a bit when he doesn't make things as clear as I would like to. It also seems to bother me when people are (accidentally) misrepresenting things from the show, it's pretty self-centered of me and I realize that, so....apologies.

I have a few projects ahead of me now so I might not check in so often in the next week or so, hope you all have a good chat

 

[Azrael 5]

*wrong post*

 

[John Albert]

Azrael, I think you're confusing me with somebody else. I never said that "line."

If you're going to act all arrogant and argumentative, the least you can do is show the common courtesy of differentiating between one person and another.

*wrong post*

Yeah, I thought so.

You were saying?

 

[Azrael 5]

As I said before, I have not worked on his TV show so I claim no firsthand insider knowledge of how he achieves his effects. My opinions are based solely on observation and educated guesses.

However, other people who have attended several of his shows have alleged that he does indeed use audience plants, if not stooges, in approximately the manner I described in my earlier post on page 3 of this thread. Whether these individuals are being truthful in their allegations is, again, debatable.

I repeat, I have no conclusive evidence to back up this claim other than stories I have read, and my own observation that those claims are not inconsistent with the behavior of some of his audience participants on his TV show. I already mentioned my suspicions regarding the behavior of the audience girl in the video posted in the OP.

Furthermore, Derren Brown has in the past denied the use of video editing and/or camera tricks in his work, and as we have seen, his "Lotto" trick gives the lie to that claim. Therefore, I have no good reason to believe he is not also lying about the use of audience plants or stooges. He has been known to use actors for ancillary roles in his tricks, so how much of a stretch is it for him to take an already willing audience participant and instruct them on giving a performance for the show?

JA you have no reason to believe me without giving away trick secrets but I can assure you there are no stooges in his live shows,it's all traditional magic.He has answered criticism of this,and indeed to throw a frisbee and hit your plant (what if it misses?) is doing it the hard way.
Secondly I don't recall his "No editing" disclaimer or no camera tricks. The former would be hard to claim on a pre-recorded show!
Not sure if I have Lottery show recorded but normally his discalimer is no stooges along with "magic misdirection "etc.

On TV Derren uses invisible compromise a lot to hide the secret(rmeove the method's visibilty), thus making the effect seem more impossible.

 

[Azrael 5]

Azrael, I think you're confusing me with somebody else. I never said that "line."

If you're going to act all arrogant and argumentative, the least you can do is show the common courtesy of differentiating between one person and another.





Yeah, I thought so.

You were saying?

I've slept inbetween,apologies.

 

[John Albert]

Hey guys, especially GrandMasterFox and John Albert, I want to apologize for the tone in my postings, the fact is that I'm a big fan of Derren Brown's work (be it skeptical or woo-flirting in nature) and it bothers me a bit when he doesn't make things as clear as I would like to. It also seems to bother me when people are (accidentally) misrepresenting things from the show, it's pretty self-centered of me and I realize that, so....apologies.

No need to apologize.

Well I agree with you that the Sirhan Sirhan thing crossed a certain line. I think the fact that he gives credit to BS woo (like the "Wisdom of Crowds") is bad enough, but purporting to exonerate a convicted political assassin is in extremely poor taste at the very least. Unfortunately, the medium of TV itself tends to cater to the lowest common denominator these days, and unfortunately Derren Brown is no exception to that trend.

I've slept inbetween,apologies.

Don't sweat it.

Any thoughts on my analysis of the "birthday present" trick?

 

[Azrael 5]

No need to apologize.

Well I agree with you that the Sirhan Sirhan thing crossed a certain line. I think the fact that he gives credit to BS woo (like the "Wisdom of Crowds") is bad enough, but purporting to exonerate a political assassin is at the very least in very poor taste. Unfortunately, the medium of TV itself tends to cater to the lowest common denominator these days, and unfortunately Derren Brown is no exception to that trend.






Don't sweat it.

Any thoughts on my analysis of the "birthday present" trick?

Well it's not pickpocketing

 

[John Albert]

Well it's not pickpocketing

So, a sleight-of-hand while he unfolded the paper?

I guess that makes a whole lot more sense from the perspective of simplicity, but then how did DB ascertain that Simon wanted the bike, with enough advance notice to get it beforehand?

No, he must have seen the paper beforehand.

 

[Kuko 4000]

One more thing I'd like to say before I stop for a while (I can't resist ) is that it's a VERY good idea to watch something like this if you're interested in the real solutions:

Somewhat OT, but for those into magic--have you seen The Devil's Picturebook?

There are many others worth watching as well.

Also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magician's_code#Secrecy

 

[Last of the Fraggles]

No need to apologize.

Well I agree with you that the Sirhan Sirhan thing crossed a certain line. I think the fact that he gives credit to BS woo (like the "Wisdom of Crowds") is bad enough, but purporting to exonerate a convicted political assassin is in extremely poor taste at the very least. Unfortunately, the medium of TV itself tends to cater to the lowest common denominator these days, and unfortunately Derren Brown is no exception to that trend.

Can you point me to something that explains how the Wisdom of Crowds is woo? I've read the book and it seemed pretty plausible to me.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

Can you point me to something that explains how the Wisdom of Crowds is woo? I've read the book and it seemed pretty plausible to me.

For predicting lottery numbers it isn't.

 

[John Albert]

You should read Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds instead.

 

[Last of the Fraggles]

For predicting lottery numbers it isn't.

Of course not. But then chemotherapy isn't all that great for baking potatoes, doesn't mean its necessarily woo.

I've seen prediction markets work, so I'm interested in learning more here.

 

[Kuko 4000]

Can you point me to something that explains how the Wisdom of Crowds is woo? I've read the book and it seemed pretty plausible to me.

As usual, the way Derren presented it was intentionally bogus:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wisdom_of_Crowds#In_popular_culture

Illusionist Derren Brown claimed to use the 'Wisdom of Crowds' concept to explain how he correctly predicted the UK National Lottery results in September 2009. His explanation was met with criticism on-line, by people who argued that the concept was misapplied[8]. The Wisdom of Crowds concept by definition requires a known truth or absolute in order to work; the lottery has no such previously-existent absolute outcome. The methodology employed was too, flawed; the sample of people, couldn’t have been totally objective and free in thought, because they were gathered multiple times and socialised with each other too much; a condition Surowiecki tells us is corrosive to pure independence and the diversity of mind required (Surowiecki 2004:38). Groups thus fall into groupthink where they increasingly make decisions based on influence of each other and are thus less accurate. However, other commentators have suggested that, given the entertainment nature of the show, Brown's misapplication of the theory may have been a deliberate smokescreen to conceal his true method[9][10].

But afaik, in certain circumstances the idea is legit:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wisdom_of_Crowds

You can see it as a good thing and a bad thing, the good being that people who are really interested will quickly learn that the way it was presented was beyond what the real thing is and the bad that some people just accept everything they see from TV as being true. Personally I thought the Lottery episode (not the short Lottery draw itself) was great, it must've been an awesome ride for the participants!

(Couple of more hours before I have to go )

 

[Azrael 5]

From what I recall-may find a link-Derren admits the offer of a lottery explanation was a bad idea, or maybe the expalantion wasn't particualrly a good idea one or the other.

 

[Rrose Selavy]

Was it here: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=5641545#post5641545

"...seemingly at random he managed to pick the same people to volunteer for a trick that he'd had volunteer the year before"

Originally Posted by zooterkin
I remember Paul Daniels on TV, and even went to see him live in London. I enjoyed watching him, and i enjoy watching Derren Brown, though I don't watch him very often. I find Brown's books more interesting.

so did I twice, I was amazed that completely seemingly at random he managed to pick the same people to volunteer for a trick that he'd had volunteer the year before

clearly he must have been using real magic to beat the odds like that,

Hold on, I am going through this thread now and apols if already covered but isn't Zooterkin referring to Paul Daniels not Brown?

 

[LandR]

The BMX thing is where Brown, by giving a monologue in which he taps a man on the shoulder every time he uses syllables that sound like "B", "M", and "X", "programmed" his mind to want a BMX bike rather than the leather jacket he previously asked for.

It's obvious bunk and it was arranged for the man to say "BMX bike" at the end; but Azrael seems to think that Brown employed some kind of "magic trick" to make him say he wanted a BMX bike rather than a jacket.

This can be done without the psychology woo (obviously) but conversely I don't think it will have needed Pegg to be playing along either.

I suspect the trick you saw and the trick that Pegg experienced were two different things but made to look like both Pegg and the audience were experiencing the same trick.

But I don't know. There will be a mundane explanation though that doesn't involve stooges, like most tricks.

 

[Kuko 4000]

Hold on, I am going through this thread now and apols if already covered but isn't Zooterkin referring to Paul Daniels not Brown?

Yep, but as I remember it was never confirmed that he was referring to this post.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Hold on, I am going through this thread now and apols if already covered but isn't Zooterkin referring to Paul Daniels not Brown?

The quote formatting is messed up there: it was Marduk who wrote the last part, not Zooterkin.

I took it that he meant he was talking about Derren Brown though I do see that it's ambiguous.