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Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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I don't know why this is such a big deal to you but you are wrong. Most recently we had drought conditions in 2001 which cost Heidi Wills her city council job as well as Zarker losing his Seattle City Light director's job.

In 2000 and 2001, the city-owned power company raised rates dramatically and borrowed heavily to deal with the California energy crisis and a local drought. The utility relies almost entirely on hydropower

I believe it was 1979 that we had 79 straight days without rain and water conservation measures were taken. Since our water is also a major source of power we also conserve electricity to conserve water reservoirs.

Don't water the lawn, shower together, turn off unneeded lights, turn up cooling temps, flush less often etc.

Anyway, I only brought this up as a possible explanation to the alleged complaints about Amanda's bathroom habits and mentioned that around Seattle we have employed the "Yellow mellow..." approach. We have and even if you aren't aware of it, it is true. Btw, people that don't flush every pee as norm do often when guests are over in order not to offend a waster :)
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You are absolutely correct Grinder,

the year of the water shortage (I think you are correct in the years), it was a big deal here in Seattle and mello-yello was the theme of the day. Not officially sanctioned, but none-the-less, still mentioned now and again enough on TV and radio so anyone who lived in Seattle at the time, remembers the phrase, "mello-yello".

As a matter of fact, the next year water rates went up, because we conserved so much water the year before; water utilities lost money and they had to make it up by raising rates.

Remember that?

That was some seriously ********** up logical ****, and I don't remember them ever lowering the rates after the drought was over,

Edited by LashL: 
To properly mask profanity. Please see Rule 10 re: the auto-censor.


Dave
 
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They asked Raffaele, he said that Amanda had gone from his flat for hours while he was constantly staying there.

I think you are a damn liar and just making up crap and picking out cherries that suit your position. Why don't you try showing evidence of your assertions? The problem is that you don't have any evidence. Your world is a fantasy of your own making. Nothing you believe is valid because it isn't supported.

Did not Raffaele say that?
(I agree, that it is uncomfortable :))


I already posted a link to the declaration Raffaele signed after his interrogation but here it is again: http://www.corriere.it/cronache/07_novembre_07/meredith_verbali_sarzanini.shtml

Now you can try to quote the bit where Raffaele says Amanda left his flat that night or you can apologize for misrepresenting the facts.

If you fail to do either, I will toss you on my ignore list as a common troll that is preventing the discussion from moving forward towards discovering the truth. I hate to do that because you have shown in the past a willingness to provide support for your arguments. But I get heated when confronted with repeated lies and ignore is the tool the forum provides for dealing with the situation.
 
I already posted a link to the declaration Raffaele signed after his interrogation but here it is again: http://www.corriere.it/cronache/07_novembre_07/meredith_verbali_sarzanini.shtml

Now you can try to quote the bit where Raffaele says Amanda left his flat that night or you can apologize for misrepresenting the facts.

If you fail to do either, I will toss you on my ignore list as a common troll that is preventing the discussion from moving forward towards discovering the truth. I hate to do that because you have shown in the past a willingness to provide support for your arguments. But I get heated when confronted with repeated lies and ignore is the tool the forum provides for dealing with the situation.

I had never focused on this point before, and I'm sure that somebody has already made this point, but this certainly sounds to me like the police are aware of the Knox-Lumumba text exchange when they are interrogating Sollecito, which of course would be before they interrogate Knox: "I went alone to 21 are at home, while Amanda has said she was going to the pub Le Chic because she wanted to meet his friends."

In other words, the cops already believe that Knox is meeting "friends" who have something to do with Le Chic and they have suggested this to Sollecito.

BTW, did Sollecito ever sign the summary of this interrogation, or is this just what the cops claim Sollecito said?
 
I think we can look here for the answer to where this story comes from.

Since we are apparently not going to be shown the tweets, we'll just have to go with rumor and innuendo as to what they said and who said them.

Oh, yes, and on my last foray down the Rabbit Hole a few days back it was noted by the Chesire Cat herself that she had been 'commissioned' by a British journalist to compile comments by Groupies attacking the Kercher family.
 
I think we can look here for the answer to where this story comes from.

Since we are apparently not going to be shown the tweets, we'll just have to go with rumor and innuendo as to what they said and who said them.
Hmmm, we will take their word for it...or perhaps not.
Why am I not surprised??:mad:
 
Machiavelli: Given your positions on this case, I really find this to be a fascinating statement by you.

Let's imagine that you are the judge. Knox is charged with calunnia. The cops say the didn't hit her and the 1:45 and 5:45 statements were voluntary even though they are demonstrably false. On the other hand, Knox has written and testified that they did hit her. Looking at this evidence, you conclude that maybe the cops did hit her (which, BTW, means that you also believe that maybe the cops are lying). There are two scenarios:

1. If you believe that prosecution bears the burden of proving the voluntariness of Knox's statements, it seems to me that there is no way you can convict her. Nobody could believe that the prosecution can show that a statement ellicited in the context of hitting is beyond a reasonable doubt voluntary. Therefore, under this scenarios, since you believe that she might have been hit, you must have reasonable doubt as to the voluntariness of the statement.

2. If you believe that coercion is an affirmative defense that Knox bears the burden of proving by a predominance of the evidence or by clear and convincing evidence, or whatever standard you might choose, then Knox has to demonstrate by sufficient proof (i) that she was hit, and (ii) that the hitting made her make a false statement. Maybe under this approach you can stretch a little and say that even though you think that Knox might have been hit, she has still not demonstrated by sufficient proof that she actually was hit, and even if she was, that the accusation was caused by the hitting.

...

PS: The alleged "repeated accusation of innocents for weeks" don't matter because the calunnia conviction isn't based on any such alleged subsequent "accusations," at least according to Massei. Maybe this is relevant to damages, but not criminal liability for calunnia.


I think have explained already why my view is polarly different.
The last statement in your post, is false. The main argument of the prosecution has always been that, it is all what cames after the 05:54 statement, that is the key matter to determine the point.
The hand written note, and her subsequent position on the whole issue, is what nails Amanda.
And maybe you don't understand the argument in Massei's report.
The series of subsequent behaviours (and anyway don't forget the false accusation includes the hand written note), which include her silence for weeks, are not crimes that determine the calunnia, but they are considered evidence that what she did previously was willfull. Thye are not a crime per se, by they are evidence of a crime. The subsequent silence is not an accusation, it is evidence of the malice of the previous accusation. The logical mechanism by which this argument work is codified in Italian jurisprudence.

The alternative that you propose, your two points, are wrong; they constitute no real logical alternative. The point 1. is just false: she can be convicted. This is shown by the fact that she was convicted beyod reasonable doubt. Even by a court who thought she could be innocent of murder. And by the way, she was hit allegedly by police during interrogation, but not hit during the spontaneous statement released at 05:54 to the magistrate. For sure she was not hit during the writing of the hand written note.

Nor the point 2. is valid. It is not that Knox has the bearing of proof that coercion did occur. The issue is different: it is not just this, not about if there was or not an objective coercion, the issue is, if there was or was not malice. Malice consists in a will to have that statement as her position. This will is shown by her refusal to change it. She could have said "they hit me, I got scared, thus I lied in panic", but she should have said as soon as possible, possibly immediately, but anyway as soon as possible during the investigation. Instead of that, she wrote the hand written note and then refused to answer further for weeks. This determines malice.
 
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"You don't want to see them, you really don't."

Or rather you CAN'T see them, you really CAN'T. Because they don't exist.

As if PG would ever hold back such evidence out of a sense of decency and taste if she in fact had it in her possession.

This is the only thing I could find (and I'm pretty sure the only such comment that exists, or the others would have been cached too):

Can anybody explain to me why it is that Meredith Kercher doesn't have a headstone on her grave after 4 years? #amandaknox 6 hours ago

So there you have it. A stupid, isolated comment, exaggerated by PG ("utter depravity") for the sole purpose of drumming up a bit of anti-Knox sentiment. I suspect the reason she didn't post it is because she knew it would be much more effective to leave things to people's imaginations. She does understand spin and how to use it, I'll say that for her.
 
Do you agree that if the police told Knox they had clear and convincing evidence that she lied and that she was present when Kercher died that they lied to her in order to get a confession from her?

No. In order to lie, they must tell about some fact. Assert "clear and convincing evidence" seems to me too generic, it seems more like telling an assessment rather than telling a fact.
And if the you say "I have evidence" in generic terms, I would (anybody would) respond by asking "what evidence?", "why do you think it is evidence?". So it boils down to giving some fact.

Anyway, there is no automatism like: police lie = explanation for false accusation. A lie or misconduct by the police does not imply a motive, a justification or even less necessity to release false testimony and false accusation. Thus it won't work, itself, as an explanation for Amanda's behaviour.
 
According to the police, she was questioned for a total of 43 hours on five different days.

This is absurd. You would obtain this calculation only if you sum up the whole number of hours during which he merely was in company or with some police officer or in some police environment. For example on nov 2. she was in enviroment surrounded by police officers from 12:40 to 2:00 am. This makes 13 hours. But in fact she exchanged dialogues with police officers for very little, let's say less than two hours in total.
 
This is absurd. You would obtain this calculation only if you sum up the whole number of hours during which he merely was in company or with some police officer or in some police environment. For example on nov 2. she was in enviroment surrounded by police officers from 12:40 to 2:00 am. This makes 13 hours. But in fact she exchanged dialogues with police officers for very little, let's say less than two hours in total.

Any credible source for that claim?
 
This is absurd. You would obtain this calculation only if you sum up the whole number of hours during which he merely was in company or with some police officer or in some police environment. For example on nov 2. she was in enviroment surrounded by police officers from 12:40 to 2:00 am. This makes 13 hours. But in fact she exchanged dialogues with police officers for very little, let's say less than two hours in total.

Cite please.
 
No. In order to lie, they must tell about some fact.

How do you reason with someone who makes up his own definitions of the word LIE to support his argument.

Definition of LIE


intransitive verb


1

: to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive


2

: to create a false or misleading impression

transitive verb


: to bring about by telling lies <lied his way out of trouble>

The word "lie" does not mean one thing for one group of people and another thing to another group of people. A lie is telling an untruth regardless who says it, police, prosecutors or witnesses.
 
You say this, but there is no accusation of murder in the handwritten note.

Here's a transcript of the note.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1570225/Transcript-of-Amanda-Knoxs-note.html

Don't see a legit accusation of any kind there. I see a woman who was seriously traumatized by her illegal interrogation in which she was yelled at, physically assaulted, and told many lies -- causing great confusion in her mind and creating dream-like memories (which she is very unsure of).

1. The police have told me that they have hard evidence that places me at the house, my house, at the time of Meredith's murder. I don't know what proof they are talking about, but if this is true, it means I am very confused and my dreams must be real.
 
Here's a transcript of the note.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1570225/Transcript-of-Amanda-Knoxs-note.html

Don't see a legit accusation of any kind there. I see a woman who was seriously traumatized by her illegal interrogation in which she was yelled at, physically assaulted, and told many lies -- causing great confusion in her mind and creating dream-like memories (which she is very unsure of).

Yes, I would like Machiavelli to point out what he thinks is an accusation. For some reason whenever I ask him a question or answer one of his he decides to disappear.
 
Technical question about JREF forum

Did not Raffaele say that?...

I already posted a link to the declaration Raffaele signed after his interrogation but here it is again: http://www.corriere.it/cronache/07_novembre_07/meredith_verbali_sarzanini.shtml

Now you can try to quote the bit where Raffaele says Amanda left his flat that night or you can apologize for misrepresenting the facts.

If you fail to do either, I will toss you on my ignore list...

Point of Order: Is there an actual "ignore" function available on this JREF board (as there is on some other boards, but which I haven't found here so far)? Or must Dan O just mean he will personally scroll past without reading the posts he finds counterproductive?

If there is a real "ignore" feature (that actually expunges from view the comments of any poster I have no interest in) someone kindly direct me to it. Reading this thead would be much more time-efficient if it's possible to do that.
 
The London Economist on the Knox/Sollecito case

"During the investigation, the media were drip-fed lurid details of the prosecution’s case... Defence lawyers complained that, by the time of the trial, the six jurors were so steeped in this version of events that they were unable to see its implausibility...The publication of only the prosecution’s evidence, illegally (through leaks) or legally (when the investigation ends), handicaps defendants." Link here.
 
Originally Posted by Machiavelli View Post

What lie did they tell them?
Originally Posted by Malkmus View Post
I suppose we could start with this quote from police about the interrogation:

Perugia police chief Arturo de Felice told reporters. "She buckled and made an admission of facts we knew were correct"

Bump.


In your mind this is a fact?
 
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