Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[RoseMontague]

Unfortunately that fails to explain why the DNA mixes were between Meredith/Knox and not with any of the other housemates who live there. Moreover Meredith was closer to the other housemates...so why are there no DNA mixes between any of them?

I am sure it would have been helpful to have Filomena's and Laura's reference samples and perhaps the boys downstairs but the crack forensic team did not get them. For example there are unidentified profiles on the bra clasp and of course they tested only certain items and areas of the flat, mostly in the bathroom of Amanda and Meredith the hallway and of course Meredith's room.

The two small areas they tested in Filomena's room were only tested because of a Luminol hit, they didn't just test areas of her room at random. I don't recall any DNA tests run on a single place in Laura's room. They did test a spot of presumed blood and hair on the broken window and managed not to find anything, go figure.

 

[madrigal]

Most of the samples were collected from the murder room and the bathroom that Amanda and Meredith shared. The DNA mixtures came mostly from the bathroom. There was a DNA mixture found in Filomena's room that included Meredith, Amanda and an unknown third individual, likely Filomena. We will never know because reference samples from the two other women were not taken.

Why doesnt the defence insist they are taken.

The reason is that there were not enough dna mixes between Meredith/Other yet enough mixes of Knox/Meredith to conclude that she may have been at the scene.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

mixed DNA can be deposited at different times

Why doesnt the defence insist they are taken.

The reason is that there were not enough dna mixes between Meredith/Other yet enough mixes of Knox/Meredith to conclude that she may have been at the scene.

One cannot date any particular DNA profile. "The results indicate that the DNA profile of an individual can be obtained from bedding after one night of sleeping in a bed. The DNA profile of the owner of the bed could also be detected in the foreign bed experiments. Since mixed DNA profiles can be obtained from trace DNA on bedding, caution should be exercised when drawing conclusions from DNA profiling results obtained from such samples." The mixed DNA samples in this study could not have been deposited at the same time.

 

[madrigal]

I am sure it would have been helpful to have Filomena's and Laura's reference samples and perhaps the boys downstairs but the crack forensic team did not get them. For example there are unidentified profiles on the bra clasp and of course they tested only certain items and areas of the flat, mostly in the bathroom of Amanda and Meredith the hallway and of course Meredith's room.

The two small areas they tested in Filomena's room were only tested because of a Luminol hit, they didn't just test areas of her room at random. I don't recall any DNA tests run on a single place in Laura's room. They did test a spot of presumed blood and hair on the broken window and managed not to find anything, go figure.

Well you can only work with the amount you've got the question is how much dna is enough and there is a mixed DNA sample of the victim's blood and Knox DNA in the room with the broken window. If there are mixes with the victims blood with an unknown persons then obviously everyones DNA would be tested.

There is nothing mysterious or conspiratorial about not taking the other housemates dna...the conclusion very early on was that they were not involved.

 

[Machiavelli]

Before until you said this I had not the full convincement of how bad the Italian system of questioning witnesses/suspects really was. It seems to allow the cops to pick and chose the point of formally naming a suspect, usually after they get the goods, thereby denying a witness legal protection they should have been entitled to. What a racket.

Everyone can have their opinions. The current Italian procedure system is actually a very modern one (implemented in 1989), and it is in compliance with European Guidelines; actually the Italian procedure warrants are considered a leading standard in Europe and in other countries. Any other system has equivalent flaws, including the American system, being impossible to eliminate the grey area in any investigation. The American system in fact has huge issues on the same phase of its functioning, actually greater problems imho, albeit they are problems which apparently look very different so maybe you don't consider them.

You may not like the principle that a normal citizen who is not a suspect does not have a right to remain silent before an investigating authority, and that a witness doesn't have a legal protection. But this principle is accepted by those who decide to live within the boundaries of the state.
For example, on the other hand I do not accept some principles that lie behind the US system and their effects, which are not admissible in Italy, for example: few days ago in New York several demonstratos were arrested by the police for no investigation purposes, but merely because they blocked a bridge. This arrest of people mainly for traffic purposes would be inacceptable in Italy, police is legally not allowed to do anything like handcuffing or arresting peaceful demonstrators, no matter if they violate a law. Systems in some ways express different views in what people perceive as fair. In the US you can anticipate you will be arrested if you demonstrate on a public road, in Italy you can anticipate that you will be declared a suspect (or arrested, depending on the charge) if you don't answer to all questions as a person who has information.

Moreover, it seems to me that in all judgement like yours the system is not considered entirely in its features. You cannot decide to not talk to the police, but only if you want to remain a witness.
Your criticism is that the investigating authority "picks" and choses a moment where to declare someone a suspect; this is actually the Public Minister's power; you don't like it, but in fact your claim is that you maybe want the witness himself to "pick" and chose when to become a suspect.
Which is, in fact, an option that a witness actually has: because if a witness refuses to do so, he will be declared a suspect. There is always a "right" for the witness (person informd about facts) to decide to become a suspec. However, this chosing such status may implicate the momentary loss of one's freedom. At least, this happens on a murder case until the preliminary hearing judge decides if this suspect shall remain free. You have to make this choice between remaining a witness or become a suspect. Anyway this doesn't go on for long: for Knox's interrogation we are talking about two hours. During which, there was another witness who withdrew her alibi, thus casting further suspicion against her.

I don't think there is anything strange or illegal in this situation. When these false declarations occurr, with exception of rare cases involving bizarre subjects, this usually means the people are implicated in a crime. There may be logical reasoning by which a person decides to lie and make a false declaration without being implicated, but the person will be able to quickly correct and release a consistent account in its place and explanation, and it is up to the person to explain - credibly - what was his/her rational motive for lying as a witness without being implicated in the crime. Where all this lacks, where the suspect is unable to provide any explanation, the false declaration can well be used as an element to orient the investigation against him.

 

[Swimfish]

Before until you said this I had not the full convincement of how bad the Italian system of questioning witnesses/suspects really was. It seems to allow the cops to pick and chose the point of formally naming a suspect, usually after they get the goods, thereby denying a witness legal protection they should have been entitled to. What a racket.

Yes, yes, yes - For you the hammer meets nail head award

 

[Machiavelli]

Did Meredith complain about cleaning shifts? Or was it the Italian girls? Cite for the tampon reference?

Cleaning shifts complaints and open discussions with Knox for not abiding to cleaning shifts are reported mainly by the Italian roommates (they were anyway focused on Knox and involved Meredith).
Shopie Purton recalled that Meredith had defined Amanda "not clean" , and also that she felt unconfortable by that she brought strange men into the house.
Amy Frost reported - now here I recall maybe wrongly as it appears it was not exactly a tampon - she reported that Meredith had found the toilet paper smeared with menstrual blood, and in that occasion she had to talk to Amanda and told her to be more careful. Frost also reported that Amanda used to leave the toilet sullied with feces and asked her a suggestion for a polite way to talk about it with Knox.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

luminol-positive blobs in Filomena's room

Well you can only work with the amount you've got the question is how much dna is enough and there is a mixed DNA sample of the victim's blood and Knox DNA in the room with the broken window. If there are mixes with the victims blood with an unknown persons then obviously everyones DNA would be tested.

There is nothing mysterious or conspiratorial about not taking the other housemates dna...the conclusion very early on was that they were not involved.

Madrigal,

There are luminol-positive blobs in Filomena's room that may or may not be blood. Without confirmatory testing, it is premature to say more than that. Not taking the flatmates DNA was a peculiar choice. It means that some of the unknown DNA profiles might have arisen from the flatmates, but one cannot be sure. If one excludes Filomena and Laura before even doing the forensics, one is engaging in poor forensics and possibly circular reasoning. Filomena does not have a better alibi than Amanda after 10 PM.
ETA
Whose DNA is in Sample 177?

 

[Steft50]

Before until you said this I had not the full convincement of how bad the Italian system of questioning witnesses/suspects really was. It seems to allow the cops to pick and chose the point of formally naming a suspect, usually after they get the goods, thereby denying a witness legal protection they should have been entitled to. What a racket.

Thank you for saying what I've been thinking this morning. One is either a suspect or not. Appointing levels of suspect is like giving levels of pregnancy. One is not a little bit pregnant, just as one cannot be a little bit of a suspect. You either are or your not. And again I say any wonder many are considering Italy a police state.

 

[snook1]

During the interrogation, per Amanda's words, they suggested Patrick's name to her and kept her cell infront of her face with the SMS on. If she's innocent of the murder (and we know she is) isn't it possible that the reason why she did not come forward and say Lumuba's innocent is that she, in fact didn't know if he was or wasn't involved? Sure, the scenario that she was asked to imagine - she with Patrick in the cottage and then her own words about screaming and covering ears - isn't the right one, but still, isn't it possible that she didn't say nothing simply beacuse she knew she wasn't there but wasn't so sure about Patrick's involvement?

I don't know if I made myself clear

 

[madrigal]

Madrigal,

There are luminol-positive blobs in Filomena's room that may or may not be blood. Without confirmatory testing, it is premature to say more than that. Not taking the flatmates DNA was a peculiar choice. It means that some of the unknown DNA profiles might have arisen from the flatmates, but one cannot be sure. If one excludes Filomena and Laura before even doing the forensics, one is engaging in poor forensics and possibly circular reasoning. Filomena does not have a better alibi than Amanda after 10 PM.
ETA
Whose DNA is in Sample 177?

One presumes that as with Lumumbo, Filomena & Laura have concrete alibi's for the time of the murder thus counting them out as suspects.

Are there any witnesses to provide an alibi for Amanda and Raff?

 

[icerat]

jails are jam full of wide-eyed young, naive, inexperienced...innocents. They arent all shifty faced monsters!


That is my opinion.

I am I hope entitled to one here.

Sure, but you pretty much stated a fact, not an opinion.

Do you have any evidence to support your opinion? That, in context, jails are full of young people with no criminal record who have committed group rape and murder?

You've mentioned one case. How many does it take to fill a jail?

 

[snook1]

Can anyone tell when the Supreme Court trial will start and how long will it last?

I know that it won't be earlier than 3 months from now.

 

[Caper]

Here is proof of "a half dozen false stories", and I am even making a point of only selecting stories there is such incontrovertible evidence against that even those who still think AK and RS know they are false:

1.Investigators falsely say Knox called Guede twice on night of the murder.

Investigators say Mr Guede left Perugia on the morning after the murder and went to Milan, where he was stopped by police but not detained. Detectives locked on to his mobile phone signal in Milan as recently as this weekend, but it then went dead. Amanda Knox made at least two calls to his number, one of them at 11am on 2 November, around the time police discovered Kercher's body.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-fourth-suspect-in-kercher-murder-758731.html

2. Police lie and say "clear cut image" of knox on CCTV footage shows her entering home contradicting here alibi and placing her at time and place of murder.

A camera in the carpark opposite Miss Kercher’s house has a "clear-cut image" of 20-year-old Amanda Knox, from Seattle, on the premises, according to police.

The revelation apparently contradicts Knox’s latest assertion that she was "not in the house" that she and Miss Kercher shared in Perugia, Italy, on the night her flatmate died.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1569140/Meredith-murder-suspect-caught-on-CCTV.html

3. Police say two receipts for bleach were found for morning after the murder time stamped at 8:30am and 9:15am.

Police said that further evidence against Mr Sollecito had come to light in the form of receipts from a shop near his flat for bleach, bought on the morning after the murder and allegedly used to clean an 8in kitchen knife and Mr Sollecito’s Nike trainers. The first receipt was timed at 8.30am on November 2, and the second 45 minutes later, suggesting that the first container of bleach had not been sufficient. The bleach was also used to clean up the flat itself.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2894139.ece

4. Police release bogus bloody bathroom picture to media spurring the idea that Knox is crazed psycho killer.

The images also show the apartment's bathroom sink and walls smeared with blood.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-scene-reveal-apartment-bloodbath-horror.html

5. Police falsely state that Sollecito's shoes are a match for bloody shoe prints found at crime scene.

Investigators report finding 120 fingerprints, among them some said to be Knox's, on Kercher's pillow, along with three bloody Nike sneaker footprints on the floor, an exact match in size and style, they say, to Sollecito's shoes.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2007/11/14/death-in-perugia.html

Edgardo Giobbi . . . "Sollecito's shoe size is 42 and the footprint is a 42." He quashed speculation that the print could have come from the latest suspect, Rudy Hermann Guede. "Guede is a size 45," he said.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1570389/Knox-a-fantasist-says-Meredith-suspect.html

6. Police lie and say that the Harry Potter book AK says she read with RS the night of murder was at the cottage with Meredith.

A Harry Potter book which Amanda Knox, the American student suspected of involvement in the murder of Meredith Kercher, claimed to have read at her boyfriend's flat on the evening of the murder has been found — not at the flat but at the cottage where the British student was killed.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article3073340.ece

All those stories are within 3 months of the murder, not one of them is true. What more proof do you need before you will realize there has been something very wrong with the prosecution of AK and RS?

Wow!! This should be autoposted every two or three posts.....


Mark Roberts (gravy) used to say that when confronted with the proof of their delusions many truthers could not physically look at the evidence.... I would imagine the same applies with the guilters on this thread.

 

[Scorpion NITE]

...Before untill the person accepts to signs or refuses to answer (and hence accept the status of suspect in another way), the police have the right to interrogate him as a witness. There is no way out.

Before until you said this I had not the full convincement of how bad the Italian system of questioning witnesses/suspects really was. It seems to allow the cops to pick and chose the point of formally naming a suspect, usually after they get the goods, thereby denying a witness legal protection they should have been entitled to. What a racket.

Before until you wrote this, the best truth I could think of was that you are a breath of fresh air. The Italian police could certainly do with chosing you for an award and I know that because I undertook a full statement analysis of your posts and found evidence beyond compare. Thank you.

 

[Scorpion NITE]

During the interrogation, per Amanda's words, they suggested Patrick's name to her and kept her cell infront of her face with the SMS on. If she's innocent of the murder (and we know she is) isn't it possible that the reason why she did not come forward and say Lumuba's innocent is that she, in fact didn't know if he was or wasn't involved? Sure, the scenario that she was asked to imagine - she with Patrick in the cottage and then her own words about screaming and covering ears - isn't the right one, but still, isn't it possible that she didn't say nothing simply beacuse she knew she wasn't there but wasn't so sure about Patrick's involvement?

I don't know if I made myself clear

Crystal clear, thanks.

It's a point that several commentators in this thread have made and a valid one.

 

[snook1]

The Machine:

The prosecutors said they would appeal, if Knox and Sollecito were acquitted. I am confident that the judges at the Italian Supreme Court will reverse the verdict. Knox's former cellmate was acquitted at her appeal, but the Italian Supreme Court reversed the verdict and she was extradited to Italy. There is an extradition treaty between America and Italy. The decision whether to extradite Knox or not should be based solely on the final verdict of the Italian Supreme Court and not on popular public opinion in America. Doing what is popular and doing what is right is not always the same thing. National Socalism was popular in Germany in the 1930s.

Wasn't The Machine convinced that the appeal will end in upholding or at least, reducing a little bit, the sentences for Knox and Sollecito?

It's beyond funny to read his posts, it's like neverending story with this guy/girl.

 

[Scorpion NITE]

One presumes that as with Lumumbo, Filomena & Laura have concrete alibi's for the time of the murder thus counting them out as suspects.

Are there any witnesses to provide an alibi for Amanda and Raff?

The females you refer to were with their boyfriends.
As for that witch, Amanda, well she was with her boyfr.......oh

 

[snook1]

Crystal clear, thanks.

It's a point that several commentators in this thread have made and a valid one.

I wasn't sure, you never know with my English!

I must have missed it, when it was being discussed. Anyway, that's what I always thought about her not setting the record straight with Lumumba.

 

[Scorpion NITE]

I wasn't sure, you never know with my English!

I must have missed it, when it was being discussed. Anyway, that's what I always thought about her not setting the record straight with Lumumba.

I agree with your thoughts on this. Amanda clearly trusted the police and IMO, it was the police who brought Lumumba into it via the text...