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Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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Condoms and vibrators have nothing to do with Maciavelli's claim that we know for certain that Meredith felt Amanda was not clean. What the Italian girls said about both of them have nothing to do with that either. The tampon thing I don't recall from Massei and I don't believe I have seen that one before either, a cite would certainly be helpful. At this point I consider what Machiavelli stated as unsupported and the mixed blood nonsense is just that.

This has always been a crock. The negative stories didn't show up until after Mignini's wild sex game theory and the arrest.

As for the men in the house, it is ironic that Rudy was brought into the house by the boys downstairs including Meredith's boyfriend. There is absolutely no evidence that Amanda brought anyone home that caused a problem.
 
Yes, I think you're right, Malfie, although there are a lot of Britons who recognize the truth, too. There also are plenty of Americans who still think it's a case of a pretty, privileged white girl getting away with murder.

You're also right that media attention to cases involving young, attractive, sexually active subjects is common. You've noticed, though, that this case is set apart by the efforts of the innocence supporters, who by and large are educated, often intellectual, well-established members of mainstream society, as well as by the detractors, a minority of whom are from the same socioeconomic subgroup. It's true, murder cases don't always attract such intense interest from the non-tabloid-reading population.

I think certain people are drawn to the case because of its complexity. It entails not only the injustice of false arrest and false imprisonment, but also the misuse of international communications media, the misinterpretation of tenets of modern science, and serious failures of political representatives in both countries.*

Two primary realities of the case add to its challenges. First, to understand the facts of the case is to know Amanda and Raffaele are innocent. Thus, it becomes a fascinating, if frustrating, puzzle for supporters, who want to understand why the detractors display such strong resistance to the facts.

Second, the pitting of Amanda and Meredith against each other as if they are on opposite poles represents a complete and total misunderstanding and false view of the meaning of the case. Correcting that misconception in people's minds will be rewarding, once accomplished.

ETA: *I want to amend this to say political representative in the U.S. and legal authorities in Italy.



Brilliant post.

Informed, intuitive, intelligent and well constructed response.

I sometimes wish I had more patience to answer as you have just done, as you have encompassed most of my feelings on the subject and probably those of the majority of people.

I guess the long drawn-out affair has left it's mark on me and perhaps I should reflect accordingly.

Thank you.
 
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But there is absolutely nothing illegal. When you say something is illegal you hae to cite a law, and also a judge's conclusion.
Here there is nothing illegal at all. Whether the suspect signs the statement, or does not, there are procedures for every case. If refuses to appoint a signature, a different kind of act is issued. And a refusal of putting a signature can be verbalized as well.

It is established already that a suspect must have assistance of counsel. Knox was a suspect at least as early when she made incriminating oral statements to the police. She was entitled to counsel before being asked to sign, and if the police wished to arrest her for having counsel then they should have done so since she was already a suspect anyway.

You keep saying that there is no relevance to the signing, that it is just "administrative." This is false. The signing turned a document created by the police into an adoptive statement of Amanda Knox. This statement was incriminating because it (and the 5:45 statement) formed the sole basis for Massei's conviction of Knox for Calunnia. The signature never should have happened because it was the result of an illegal act by the police.

The police conduct, in elliciting an incriminating statement from a person they already suspected was illegal. You'll forgive me for not citing a "judge's conclusion" on this issue, since the judges who handled this case prior to Hellmann have been completely incompetent.


And all this would not prevent the police from verbalizing anyway what the person had said and give it to the magistrate for investigation.

So Knox was suspected based on her oral statements and the signature was not necessary, and did not accomplish anything except to incriminate her. My point again is that since she was a suspect based on the oral statements, which you say the police were free to verbalize, then she was obviously entitled to counsel and had the right to remain silent (not to sign). The police illegally denied her these rights when they proceeded to have her sign in the absence of counsel.[/QUOTE]


Actually, they always have to record minutes of an interrogation. But they have no legal obligation to have autio od video recordings. Moreover, video and audio recordings are generally viewed as detrimental to the suspects.

LOL. Not in this case.
 
The Oracle has spoken.

Throw the Judges 400 page DNA document in the bin..its worthless.

You'll look a long, long time in any such document before you find any reference to "mixed blood".

"Mixed blood" is from guilter fanfiction, not the actual prosecution case.

You'll find the guilters in their echo chambers have made up all sorts of juicy "evidence" that never existed in the prosecution case and in fact has never existed outside of their fertile (if sick) imaginations... Amanda being a cocaine-using psychopath, mixed blood, Rudy Guede's feet being far larger than Raffaele's and so on.

You'd be well advised to check any "facts" you got from PMF, TMJK or anonymous blog or news commenters with the JREF forum community here before you repeat them... there's an excellent chance that they're just plain false.
 
Sorry, you're right. Angel Face to me doesn't have a negative connotation though. Perhaps I'm reading American papers through too British an eye.

But we can agree that there is a disparity between the way the two nations reported the case though? I just wonder why that is.

I was just trying to capture a generalisation with the two initial statements. Yes, I deliberately waxed lyrical to highlight my argument.

Which was, in essence, is there an 'us against them' feeling in the US. And conversely, is there a 'them against us' feeling in Britain and Italy? Or is that just incidental to the issue at hand?



The US has a nationalist/jingoistic approach, its primarily about bringing their girl home and safe.

The subsection of the UK press involved would always side with the clean-living middle class girl...that is where any bias may lay..but no not in a fly the flag respect.

Us English arent exactly known for flying flags anyhow :)
 
PS: Check the European Court of Human Rights' recent decision, Brusco v. France, which has led to an entire reformulation of France's procedures for questioning suspects, since the things the police did and that case, as in this case, were illegal.
 
You'll look a long, long time in any such document before you find any reference to "mixed blood".

"Mixed blood" is from guilter fanfiction, not the actual prosecution case.


Not mixed blood as such but mixed blood dna.

Havent read the whole document but presumably there is a lot of dna evidence in there....as mentioned by the Kerchers when interviewed.
 
It is established already that a suspect must have assistance of counsel.

No. Not a "suspect" in the sense that someone who attracts the police's suspicion.
Only a formal suspect, a suspect with usable evidence already agaisnt him has the right to be asisted by a lawyer during questioning.

Knox was a suspect at least as early when she made incriminating oral statements to the police. She was entitled to counsel before being asked to sign, and if the police wished to arrest her for having counsel then they should have done so since she was already a suspect anyway.

No. If you keep on asserting such a thing (nonsense, I would say) then quote the law and the judge's ruling.

You keep saying that there is no relevance to the signing, that it is just "administrative." This is false. The signing turned a document created by the police into an adoptive statement of Amanda Knox. This statement was incriminating because it (and the 5:45 statement) formed the sole basis for Massei's conviction of Knox for Calunnia. The signature never should have happened because it was the result of an illegal act by the police.

Absolutely not. The statement is always not usable against the person even when signed. And anyway the whole signature issue is etirely illogical and irrelevant. If you assume the signature "creates" documents, then you have also to assume that the declaration, as a document, doesn't exist before the signature; and hence, provided that the document doesn't exist, no status of formal suspect can exist; and since there is no status of suspect, there no right to counsuel.
If we follow your timeline, what happen is: as you "accept" your right to cousuel as a suspect, that is thje moment in which you sign the incriminating statement. You don't have any rights of a formal suspect before that. That is the moment when you become a suspect and not before: and this contradicts your premise.
Before untill the person accepts to signs or refuses to answer (and hence accept the status of suspect in another way), the police have the right to interrogate him as a witness. There is no way out.
 
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You missed the first part about them also being so obviously innocent
(ie obviously not guilty based on the evidence)


You presume I missed it.

I doubt whether there would be so much fuss if they were so obviously innocent. As it happens I'm not convinced they're innocent at all.
 
Condoms and vibrators have nothing to do with Maciavelli's claim that we know for certain that Meredith felt Amanda was not clean.

This is about Meredith's dislikes about Amanda's charachter or behaviour in relation to common spaces; not directly concerning the fact that she was not clean.

What the Italian girls said about both of them have nothing to do with that either.

The italian girls talk about each one by their names, it is not that they just talk in general about "both".

The tampon thing I don't recall from Massei and I don't believe I have seen that one before either, a cite would certainly be helpful. At this point I consider what Machiavelli stated as unsupported and the mixed blood nonsense is just that.

Complains about cleaning shifts; about tampon and about feces in toliet are reported and they are certain.
These are complains about being clean. However, who doesn't want to accept these reports will keep on in the presumptive assumption that they don't exist.
 
How do you tell blood DNA from non blood DNA?

Contact Barbie, she has interviewed a dozen DNA forensic experts and they tell her its the volume of DNA or some such reason. Or was it dozens of experts? :)

The mixed blood argument never provides the source of Amanda's blood nor does it ever explain if she was bleeding why they didn't find this blood anywhere in the murder room, or anywhere except three tiny drops on the faucet.
 
Sorry, you're right. Angel Face to me doesn't have a negative connotation though.

Used in its normal context, 'Angel Face' would not have a negative connotation. However, take a look at the way it was used against Knox in the media and particularly by Barbie Nadeau (you were referred to her earlier).


Perhaps I'm reading American papers through too British an eye....

You have been quick to criticise others, so I trust you will not mind me pointing out that I take umbrage with your statement here. It is not ''too British an eye'' - it is YOUR own eyes.

...
 
Complains about cleaning shifts; about tampon and about feces in toliet are reported and they are certain.
These are complains about being clean. However, who doesn't want to accept these reports will keep on in the presumptive assumption that they don't exist.

There was mention of Amanda not using the brush to clean the toilet not the lack of flushing feces. In Seattle for the last thirty or forty years it has been a water and sewage treatment saving policy not to flush when there is only pee in the bowl.

"Yellow is mellow, when brown flush it down" is the ditty used to teach "proper" environmental flushing.
 
mixed DNA and mixed up ideas about blood

Not mixed blood as such but mixed blood dna.

Havent read the whole document but presumably there is a lot of dna evidence in there....as mentioned by the Kerchers when interviewed.
I have read all of the forensics sections of the Massei report. The mixed DNA evidence was not inculpatory in this case. Some of the evidence in this case also concerned presumptive blood testing, and the issues overlap for some of the items of evidence. In my opinion there were many misunderstandings of the DNA and luminol evidence in this case.
 
Before untill the person accepts to signs or refuses to answer (and hence accept the status of suspect in another way), the police have the right to interrogate him as a witness. There is no way out.

Before until you said this I had not the full convincement of how bad the Italian system of questioning witnesses/suspects really was. It seems to allow the cops to pick and chose the point of formally naming a suspect, usually after they get the goods, thereby denying a witness legal protection they should have been entitled to. What a racket.
 
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