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Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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lists of demonstrably false statements from ILE

Don't forget the conflicting accounts Mignini gave for why he didn't record Amanda's illegal interrogation.

That is a powerful list, similar to one that Charlie Wilkes provided last year, but with more citations. There are also the twice-translated passages of Amanda's diary that bear only a passing resemblance to what she actually wrote. And the police claimed that the clothes she wore the night of 1 November were missing, when they were actually in her room.
 
:confused:

"This statement which, as specified in the entry of 6 November 2007, 20:00 pm, by the Police Chief Inspector, Rita Ficarra, was drawn up, following the notification of the detention measure, by Amanda Knox, who ‚requested blank papers in order to produce a written statement to hand over‛ to the same Ficarra." (Massei [418])

Perhaps this is an error in the translation. Is there any better source for the timing of events on that day?

____________________

Dan,

Is this just the time at which Rita "specified in the entry" that she'd received Amanda's Memorandum? We know that Amanda had given it to Rita far earlier than "20:00 pm." Amanda had given it to Rita before being transferred from the police station to Capanne Prison. From the photographs of that transfer, we know the transfer happened in daylight, so no later than afternoon, November 6th, 2007.

///
 
I have a question for Mach or anyone else who is knowledgeable about Italian police practices. Is it normal for police to have representatives in from Rome, along with a large number of police, to interview a person that is not a suspect? Also has Giobbi been asked about the scream he heard from Amanda ?
 

I think was an unfortunate article. I think the Kerchers are perfectly entitled to talk about Meredith and their memories of her. But at the moment, I think it's inappropriate and undignified for them to be making comments about Knox and Sollecito.

And I think that it's both wrong and unfair to be criticising the media coverage of Knox's (and Sollecito's) acquittals. That is quite clearly the main story at the moment, and I'm afraid that it needs to be said that the "don't forget Meredith" mantra is beginning to be badly overused right now. Everyone involved in the case or who follows the case remembers Meredith, and remembers that she was by far the biggest victim in all this. But the current issue on the table is whether Knox and Sollecito were participants in her murder or not, and therefore they should rightly be the focus of attention at this time. And I wish the Kerchers would stop implicitly criticising the pair and/or those who have campaigned for their release.

Incidentally, within that article, a particular paragraph caught my eye:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
‘I thought the judge might uphold the conviction but possibly reduce their sentences to be more in line with Guede’s — but not this,’ he (John Kercher) says.
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Isn't that in line with "The Machine's" bold prediction, based on his "trusted source"? Interesting, huh........ or maybe it's just a coincidence.........



You make some good points as usual LJ, but also, THIS below does seem to support some people's opinions that John Kercher, in particular, seems to be a little two-faced at times - just found out about it whilst browsing the web for something else!

Agent Ben Mason hired by father of Meredith Kercher

http://www.thebookseller.com/news/agent-ben-mason-hired-father-meredith-kercher.html

:eye-poppi
 
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Another question I have is, when a person being questioned asks for legal representation, is it normal practice to refuse them?
 
Continuing from the Masonic CT recap. . .

Mignini gets a 16 month prison sentence for abuse of office and to you bringing that up is "self evident proof of a dirty campaign against him"? Why isn't it self evident proof that he is an untrustworthy criminal?

Do you think you can say whatever unproven thing you want about someone because has a pending charge? (which you don't even know about)
Your is a dirty campaign, made of falsehoods. The conviction of Mignini is for you merely an instrument to take advantage from in order to insinuate lies that have nothing to do with it. In fact, you don't even know anything about Mignini's conviction nor about his actual personal credibility. And you seem to ignore the chain of judges and prosecution offices that do the same things Mignini does.
I think you are all quite crazy here, in fact. There is no shed of rationality in your immagination about Mignini. Your assertions and speculations about "leaks" or "crimes" by Mignini are nonsense.

Now that RS and AK have been found innocent perhaps the only "criminal interest" being served here is your bizzaro defense of Mignini
.

First of all they will be "found" innocent or guilty only after the Cassazione. By now, Knox is actually convicted for calunnia, not innocent.
And calunnia is not abuse of office.

Do you have a better translation of what Mignini said? Maybe you missed it on PMF since it was promptly erased but I told you and The Machine that the date Mignini said the halloween sect stuff in court was probably October 18, 2008.

No "sect". And nothing "satanic".
Mignini described a sexual murder, in which Meredith was killed in a sexual context by more than one individual. In describing his idea of the dinamic, he defined it "rito sessuale casereccio", which roughly could be translated as a "home made sexual rite". But be careful! The translation is improper, word "rito" in Italian has a much wider meaning than "rite" or "ritual". In fact it is a much commonlyu used word in wide contexts. For example, the short track trial chosen by Rudy Gude is called "rito abbreviato".
"Rito" means in most cases, "procedure", or "custom", or even "practice".

Then Mignini speculated that the murder could have originated by some kind of meeting or night students meeting/party or prank that could have been vaguelly inspired in some way to the atmosphere of Halloween.

Then he also mentioned some material that would show some complex aspects of the personality of defendants: Sollecito's penchant for knifes, violent and bestiality porn, and his favourite mainstream manga, the main charachter of which is a young man - shy, nerd kind - whose mind is telepatically captured by the thoughts of a serial killer who kills nude girls with a knife on a sacrifice altar, by the ende the main charachter is transformed into a devil.
Material like this is merely elements to show aspects of the personality of defendants, as he is required by law to do, in order to show that their personalities are complex and not the stereotypes they may try to look like.

I didn't find this thoughts by Mignini entirely irrational.


To put this in perspective remember Mignini was investigating a crime scene with a break in involving a habitual burglar

I think instead this is stereotypical and superficial by you and the innocentisti.
I think the idea of a sexual murder originated from a sexual meeting of drugged students, where conflict among Amanda and Meredith and an escalation due to the presence of two rival guys - Guede and Sollecito - is the actual frame in which the incident developed.
I don't think the evidence point in the direction of a burglar at all.


Why are you bringing Preston into this? All I have been quoting is you and Mignini. This isn't PMF where you can blame Preston for all the stupid things Mignini has said.

Preston is an example of dirty campaign by a liat. A comparison between a consistent, normal and logical account (by Mignini) and an impossible absurd story by Preston. This is an example of how Mignini is trustworth compared to one of his detractors.

Here is proof of "a half dozen false stories", and I am even making a point of only selecting stories there is such incontrovertible evidence against that even those who still think AK and RS know they are false:

You did not say half dozen false stories. You said the police (they, who?) leaked false information.
Where is the evidence, and the logic of this. Nowhere.
On any case, in Italy, there is leak of anything from the investigation. Always. It is unavoidable. It is not the police. It is the structural lack of secrecy due to the huge number of lawyers that can access the evidence files: it is an eccess of transparency. The problem is, that you don't live in Itlym so you don't know this.

1.Investigators falsely say Knox called Guede twice on night of the murder.

Investigators say Mr Guede left Perugia on the morning after the murder and went to Milan, where he was stopped by police but not detained. Detectives locked on to his mobile phone signal in Milan as recently as this weekend, but it then went dead. Amanda Knox made at least two calls to his number, one of them at 11am on 2 November, around the time police discovered Kercher's body.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-fourth-suspect-in-kercher-murder-758731.html

Never heared this story in Italy.

2. Police lie and say "clear cut image" of knox on CCTV footage shows her entering home contradicting here alibi and placing her at time and place of murder.

Who is the leaker? Moreover they had a footage some believed to be Knox. They were following that path. And where is the lie?
(moreover, cite Italian sources, not second hand reports from another countries)


3. Police say two receipts for bleach were found for morning after the murder time stamped at 8:30am and 9:15am.

Again, recepts were indeed found and collected. You just don't like these leaks. But what does that mean? Where is the lie? Where is malice, purpose, logic? And who did the leak?
And what does the original source say exactly?

4. Police release bogus bloody bathroom picture to media spurring the idea that Knox is crazed psycho killer.

Pure nonsense. The photo only appeared on a British tabloid. You think the police purposely deciodes to chose a picture and send it to a newspaper (a British one) in order to deceive the public with red colour. But do you realize how stupid and obtuse this idea is? And do you realize that this is your imagination working up the scenario? The photo was chosen by journalist with the purpse of selling copies on morbid arguments. It was chosen from a huge set provided by some of the tens (hundreds) of lawyers and officers who accessed the court chancelry. Lawyers even remotely related to a firma linked to one of the seven legal parties involved in the investigation or to a preliminary investigation judge office.

The only real unlawful and malicious leak was made by Sollecito's family using Telenorba and local pres in Puglia.

I skip the rest, including the Harry Potter book, they are to be treated like the first ones.
What I see is that you infer things against the police (who?) or the procura, from these media issues which are, instead, to me totally irrelevant. They mean nothing. There is nothing of what you say against magistrates or police in these press information. You blame people that have nothing to do with it for rubbish published on newspapers (maybe British tabloids).
In my mind, and my mindset, thing like thse have nothing to do with "police leaks" or police lies. These are leaks and stories that occurr always on any case in Italy and have nothing to do with police or prosecution. They are endemic to the Italian system, they are simply not prevented from happening. Take as an opposite example, all the leaks and press campaigns against the police that occurred on Italian magazines like Oggi, Panorama, on Telenorba. You don't have the slightest idea of what the Italian press passes along in campaigns against magistrates.
 
Edgardo Giobbi should be fired....

Has he taken down his pictures yet.?

I hope they video tape his early retirement and removal of the pictures from the office wall.

What an embarrassment for his office of the Serious Squad.

Great article.


Thank you Halides1, SMK and JREF2010. :)

I agree with JREF2010 that Giobbi should be fired - sadly I doubt it will happen...but can live in hope.
 
So your position is that a person who the police suspect of a crime and is being subject to a custodial interrogation in Italy has no right to counsel and no right to remain silent until the police have succeeded in extracting a confession from that person by whatever means they want? This is absurd and you cannot seriously expect anyone to believe such a thing.

BTW--where are those code provisions you promised. So far, all I see is Mignini, international law and common sense saying the opposite of what you say.

Diocletius you are twisting and I don't understand why you don't understand a topic that simple. I have never spoken of extracting confessions. I have spoken about eliciting evidence. And I have never said "with whatever means". So why do you put that into the discourse?
A person has no right to refuse questions as long as there is no evidence against the person. There is no right to remain silent and to counsuel with a lawyer during questioning for a person who is not already a suspect with evidence against him. Is that clear?
there is instead another option: a person may refuse to make delaration and chose to become a formal suspect. At least, suspect for the crime of refusing to declare as a witness. But you cannot remain silent, and have no evidence against you, and not be declared a formal suspect.
A formal suspect has more rights than a citizen. Like the right to remain silent. But also more burdens. Like, he may loose freedom and could be taken into custody. There is a different system here, and you still don't belive it. And you don't understand that Mignini says
the same thing that I am sayng.
 
Do you think you can say whatever unproven thing you want about someone because has a pending charge? (which you don't even know about)
Your is a dirty campaign, made of falsehoods. The conviction of Mignini is for you merely an instrument to take advantage from in order to insinuate lies that have nothing to do with it. In fact, you don't even know anything about Mignini's conviction nor about his actual personal credibility. And you seem to ignore the chain of judges and prosecution offices that do the same things Mignini does.
I think you are all quite crazy here, in fact. There is no shed of rationality in your immagination about Mignini. Your assertions and speculations about "leaks" or "crimes" by Mignini are nonsense.

First of all they will be "found" innocent or guilty only after the Cassazione. By now, Knox is actually convicted for calunnia, not innocent.
And calunnia is not abuse of office.

No "sect". And nothing "satanic".Mignini described a sexual murder, in which Meredith was killed in a sexual context by more than one individual. In describing his idea of the dinamic, he defined it "rito sessuale casereccio", which roughly could be translated as a "home made sexual rite". But be careful! The translation is improper, word "rito" in Italian has a much wider meaning than "rite" or "ritual". In fact it is a much commonlyu used word in wide contexts. For example, the short track trial chosen by Rudy Gude is called "rito abbreviato".
"Rito" means in most cases, "procedure", or "custom", or even "practice".

Then Mignini speculated that the murder could have originated by some kind of meeting or night students meeting/party or prank that could have been vaguelly inspired in some way to the atmosphere of Halloween.
Then he also mentioned some material that would show some complex aspects of the personality of defendants: Sollecito's penchant for knifes, violent and bestiality porn, and his favourite mainstream manga, the main charachter of which is a young man - shy, nerd kind - whose mind is telepatically captured by the thoughts of a serial killer who kills nude girls with a knife on a sacrifice altar, by the ende the main charachter is transformed into a devil.
Material like this is merely elements to show aspects of the personality of defendants, as he is required by law to do, in order to show that their personalities are complex and not the stereotypes they may try to look like.

I didn't find this thoughts by Mignini entirely irrational.

I think instead this is stereotypical and superficial by you and the innocentisti.
I think the idea of a sexual murder originated from a sexual meeting of drugged students, where conflict among Amanda and Meredith and an escalation due to the presence of two rival guys - Guede and Sollecito - is the actual frame in which the incident developed.

I don't think the evidence point in the direction of a burglar at all.

Preston is an example of dirty campaign by a liat.
A comparison between a consistent, normal and logical account (by Mignini) and an impossible absurd story by Preston. This is an example of how Mignini is trustworth compared to one of his detractors.

You did not say half dozen false stories. You said the police (they, who?) leaked false information.
Where is the evidence, and the logic of this. Nowhere.
On any case, in Italy, there is leak of anything from the investigation. Always. It is unavoidable. It is not the police. It is the structural lack of secrecy due to the huge number of lawyers that can access the evidence files: it is an eccess of transparency. The problem is, that you don't live in Itlym so you don't know this.

Never heared this story in Italy.

Who is the leaker? Moreover they had a footage some believed to be Knox. They were following that path. And where is the lie?
(moreover, cite Italian sources, not second hand reports from another countries)

Again, recepts were indeed found and collected. You just don't like these leaks. But what does that mean? Where is the lie? Where is malice, purpose, logic? And who did the leak? And what does the original source say exactly?

Pure nonsense. The photo only appeared on a British tabloid. You think the police purposely deciodes to chose a picture and send it to a newspaper (a British one) in order to deceive the public with red colour. But do you realize how stupid and obtuse this idea is? And do you realize that this is your imagination working up the scenario? The photo was chosen by journalist with the purpse of selling copies on morbid arguments. It was chosen from a huge set provided by some of the tens (hundreds) of lawyers and officers who accessed the court chancelry. Lawyers even remotely related to a firma linked to one of the seven legal parties involved in the investigation or to a preliminary investigation judge office.

The only real unlawful and malicious leak was made by Sollecito's family using Telenorba and local pres in Puglia.

I skip the rest, including the Harry Potter book, they are to be treated like the first ones. What I see is that you infer things against the police (who?) or the procura, from these media issues which are, instead, to me totally irrelevant. They mean nothing. There is nothing of what you say against magistrates or police in these press information. You blame people that have nothing to do with it for rubbish published on newspapers (maybe British tabloids). In my mind, and my mindset, thing like thse have nothing to do with "police leaks" or police lies. These are leaks and stories that occurr always on any case in Italy and have nothing to do with police or prosecution. They are endemic to the Italian system, they are simply not prevented from happening. Take as an opposite example, all the leaks and press campaigns against the police that occurred on Italian magazines like Oggi, Panorama, on Telenorba. You don't have the slightest idea of what the Italian press passes along in campaigns against magistrates.


Mignini would be quite proud of you IMHO.

He probably could not have said it better himself.

You and he appear to have a lot in common.

(Regrettably, that may not necessarily be a compliment).

I can see why L J suggested you take a break though - stress is not good for the heart.

Good night.
 
Just a question from a regular lurker:

Does anyone with actual knowledge of the Italian legal system know if there is a tenet in Italian law/jurisprudence that compares to this as it is used in the American courts?

Short answer: No - You have no real protected right to counsel or against self-incrimination.

I refer to Machiavelli: "This is entirely legal: it is like it has to be. The incriminating statement is considered circumstantial evidence in the investigation and a document for practical use in the investigation, but it is still an informal act, not a judicial act nor a piece of evidence itself in a trial; it can be used in trial but cannot be used against the person who released it. There is no police misconduct in this, this is the normal police work. And there is nothing illegal in obtaining the document. The only thing is that the document is not usable in a trial against the person who released it. It is provided that the police collects incriminating statements from suspects; it is only not permitted their use in a trial for certain purposes."

In other words. You can't use the statement itself against the defendant. However, you can use the facts derived from that statement and the fact that the statement was made, e.g. the fruit of the poison tree, to build and prosecute a case against the defendant.

From my view point as a former military law enforcement official this would be great. No more worrying about ensuring the accused rights are respected because even if I violated those rights it would be considered normal police work. No more problematic cases like lying before congress in front of millions being reversed on appeal because forcing me to waive my constitutional rights is normal congressional work. Yes Mr. North you lied to congress and a jury found you guilty of that charge.

As we know legal technicalities such as the suppression of illegally obtained confessions only protect the guilty. The innocent need not fear the police.

Based a post below Machiavelli appears to be an honorable if very zealous defender of the Italian legal system. He also appears to be blind to the systematic faults in that system which allow an over-zealous police force or prosecutor to systemically violate a defendants civil (human) rights without pause for meaningful sanction.
 
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Diocletius you are twisting and I don't understand why you don't understand a topic that simple. I have never spoken of extracting confessions. I have spoken about eliciting evidence. And I have never said "with whatever means". So why do you put that into the discourse?

Simple. Because these particular police extracted a confession by hitting the witness.

This is why the law cannot be as you state. Because under your sugestion, the police will learn a system to extract confessions from weak witnesses, like 20-year old girls. The police will yell and hit and lie. And if the 20-year old girl has no counsel and no right to remain silent, then as sure as the day is long, the police will find a way to make her into a criminal if they want to.

A free country cannot work like this, like you say. And Italy is a free country. So therefore you are wrong about the law.
 
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I don't care about the intricacies of Italian law if that law violates basic human rights in ways that are proven to facilitate the conviction of innocent people. If the police suspect someone of the crime, that person is a suspect in any sane legal system. If Italian law defies logic, so much the worse for Italian law. The point of having a right to a lawyer is to protect the right not to incriminate oneself, especially under duress. If the right to a lawyer does not attach until after the police coerce a confession from a suspect against whom there is no evidence (and thus a suspect who is more likely to be innocent), then the right to a lawyer is purely cosmetic. Abuses like that might be very rare (although likely not), but in high profile cases where the police are under great pressure, such abuses would be nearly certain. And the US needs to withdraw from that extradition treaty pronto, because Italy has no regard for due process.

Italy has an inquisitorial system. There isn't a right to remain silent and a right to a lawyer for the common citizen in a police context, in the Anglo-Saxon sense.
The Italian system has a lot of protection of defendants, but work differently from the anglo-saxon system. Here protections do not apply to police work phase. In this system police investigation and interogations are never usable and never admitted in trials. They have a different legal status compared to the UK or the US. In the US you have the Miranda warning, saying your declarations can be used against you. In Italy you need to be a formal suspect in order to recive an equivalent of the Miranda warning. The citizen who speaks with police is not told his rights as in the Miranda warning, because he has no such rights: he must always cooperate and always has to answer. If he does not answer, he is declred a suspect or maybe arrested.

According to you, Italian law permits the questioning of a person who isn't even a suspect for 8 hours a day for five days, while denying them food, water, and sleep,

Absolutely not, this is absurd. Water, food, sleep can never be denied. Moreovr police cannot take in custody a non-suspect: you can leave when you want. However, if they deem they can take in custody a person, but if they take someone in custody they must call a magistrate with no delay.
 
The only real unlawful and malicious leak was made by Sollecito's family using Telenorba and local pres in Puglia.

I actually get now how that works. If the press does stories that benifit the prosecution, whether or not they are lies, that is ok and not illegal. However, if the press uses stories that do not benifit the prosecution the sources are unlawful and malicious.

And you questioin why many have strong indicators that this is indeed a police state.
 
there is instead another option: a person may refuse to make delaration and chose to become a formal suspect. At least, suspect for the crime of refusing to declare as a witness. But you cannot remain silent, and have no evidence against you, and not be declared a formal suspect.

Ah, I see. So what you are saying is that the police told Amanda Knox that she would go to jail if she refused to give evidence against the person to whom she had sent the text message (Patrick).
 
A person has no right to refuse questions as long as there is no evidence against the person. There is no right to remain silent and to counsuel with a lawyer during questioning for a person who is not already a suspect with evidence against him. Is that clear?

I understand what you are saying, but my point from the very beginning is that the police believed Amanda Knox to be a suspect at least as early as the moment when she made the oral declarations that the police then typed into a note and persuaded Knox to sign. If they hadn't believed her comments to be incriminating, then they would not have typed them and persuaded her to sign.

Therefore, she had a right to counsel and a right to remain silent that attached before she was handed the typed statement to sign.
 
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