Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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katy_did said:
Well, as sure as I was there had to be an acquittal (thinking about it logically) my heart was still in my mouth when Hellmann started speaking. I do believe I may have been in tears when the outcome became clear, though I can't really remember, it's all a bit of a blur.

I really hope that Meredith's family can find some kind of peace. The botched police investigation has prolonged something that should have been over a long time ago. They just trusted their lawyer, and it's not their fault he wasn't worthy of that kind of trust. They are as much victims of this investigation as Amanda and Raffaele, and I hope they can find a way to come to terms with this, even if that's a vain hope.
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Very well said and my thoughts exactly, you just said them better.
 
Earl Grey at PMF wrote;

When Amanda gets paid for the book and movie, hopefully she'll use some of that money to help find "the real killers," just like OJ was kind enough to do.

How can someone with over 300 posts at PMF be seemingly unaware of the fact that the REAL killer has already been found and is currently serving a 16 year sentence? Or does he actually believe Rudy's claim of innocence?
 
LondonJohn said:
And a note on the guilty verdict handed down by Hellmann's court for the criminal slander charge against Lumumba.

This charge will now go to the Supreme Court for examination, as is automatic for all serious charges where the appeal level returns guilty verdicts. I think it will be interesting to see what happens at the Supreme Court level. Personally, I think Knox should fight this charge robustly: if the appeal court ruled that she was not involved in the murder, it makes little sense that it found that she was motivated to make a false accusation of her own free will.

But I have a funny feeling that Knox might instruct her lawyers not to fight the charge in the Supreme Court. After all, if she has success at Supreme Court level, that won't mean acquittal of that charge. It will mean that the criminal slander charge will be referred back down to the appeal court level as a stand-alone charge. And that will then entail Knox having to travel back to Italy and spend weeks or even months there while the appeal trial takes place. I wonder therefore if she might not relish that prospect, and might be prepared to give up the fight on that charge.
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If the point of the argument against the slander charge is that the interrogation statement was inadmissible, then the charge would be referred, not to the appeals court, but all the way back to the lowest court -- and, while they could retry it, they would have to do so without using the statement as evidence, which would be virtually impossible. In that situation, I would think that any prosecutor (Mignini being undoubtedly disbarred by then) would elect to just let the case drop.

And I hope she would fight it, not only for the lump sum, but for not having to pay (astronomically padded, I'm sure) legal fees to the piece of human slime who called her a "spell-casting witch" and "dirty-souled she-devil." Why should he deserve even one cent of her family's money?
 
Here's interesting, from PMF.org. Something I didn't pick up about the verdict, because the only words of Italian I know are "cappucino" and "francobollo".

Jools said:
“In the name of the Italian people, the Assize Court of Appeal in Perugia ... in partial reform of the judgment pronounced on 4 to 5 December 2009 by the Assize Court of First Instance of Perugia, against Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito… - declares Amanda Knox guilty of the crime of calunnia [slander] (in detriment of Patrick Lumumba, ed) ... and sentences her to three years in prison (...); - absolves both defendants of the crimes contested in chapters A (murder, ed), B (knife carrying), C (sexual assault) and D (theft) [“per non aver commesso il fatto”] for not having committed the crime and the crime of which chapter E (simulation of crime) [“perchè il fatto non sussiste”] because the fact was not committed – orders the immediate release of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito if are not held for other reason”
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So not only are they not guilty of murder, theft and carrying knives because they didn't do it, they're not guilty of staging the crime scene, because that crime was not committed at all. Nobody staged the crime scene.

Rolfe.
 
What ever happened to the Quintavalle recanting? Wonder if other people involved that just wanted to be helpful in convicting the witch will now change their stories?
 
RoseMontague said:
Andrea Vogt's latest:

http://m.seattlepi.com/spi/db_/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=nLlGNJbr&full=true#display

Interesting her paragraph breaks, reads rather clipped.
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But some of the crowd outside the court was unhappy, shouting "Shame, shame. They condemned the black man."

The long-awaited and controversial decision is an embarrassing judicial slapdown

the key turning point in her bizarre appeal

Even her image was successfully rebuilt -- gone were the Beatles hoodies and T-shirts, traded in for sober and conservative court-appropriate attire

But in the end, it was the persistent, meticulous effort to raise questions about every single piece of evidence that provided the jury with exactly what Amanda Knox needed: Reasonable Doubt.

In a surprising decision


Hmmmmm.

Bitter much, Andrea??
 
So who can explain the charges Hellman gave at the end?

I heard the calunnia was 3yrs? is that for the cuffing of her head against the Perugia police?

and then Patrick gets 22,000 Euro and the civil suit for the Kerchers was part of the A,BC,E?
 
The only conviction was for slandering Patrick. I think the calumny in relation to the police is a separate charge.

I do not think Amanda will be returning to Italy for that trial.

Rolfe.
 
Rolfe said:
Here's interesting, from PMF.org. Something I didn't pick up about the verdict, because the only words of Italian I know are "cappucino" and "francobollo".


So not only are they not guilty of murder, theft and carrying knives because they didn't do it, they're not guilty of staging the crime scene, because that crime was not committed at all. Nobody staged the crime scene.

Rolfe.
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Yes, it has been almost a completely clean sweep by the Defence. A refreshing proof of Hellmann's readiness to look at the FACTS, rather than the hyperbole. I understand that 'Morsels' has tweeted that it was a UNANIMOUS decision by the jurors as well!! :)

P.S. Someone is going to be tired in the morning when she sets off on holiday... :D
 
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Scorpion NITE said:
But some of the crowd outside the court was unhappy, shouting "Shame, shame. They condemned the black man."

The long-awaited and controversial decision is an embarrassing judicial slapdown

the key turning point in her bizarre appeal

Even her image was successfully rebuilt -- gone were the Beatles hoodies and T-shirts, traded in for sober and conservative court-appropriate attire

But in the end, it was the persistent, meticulous effort to raise questions about every single piece of evidence that provided the jury with exactly what Amanda Knox needed: Reasonable Doubt.

In a surprising decision


Hmmmmm.

Bitter much, Andrea??
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You can sure tell that she was gnashing her teeth in writing a not guilty article, had to throw in some disparaging stuff, just to maintain her sanity.

[tt]Witchgirl[/tt] Stop

[tt]not guilty[/tt] Stop

[tt]going home[/tt] Stop

[tt]Rah[/tt] Stop

[tt]Rah[/tt] Stop

Shame the BB code won't allow the typewriter style. Bummer.
 
LondonJohn said:
I see they are back to deleting posts that they disagree with over at .org. And it's deeply ironic to see Quennell (AKA Fast Pete) now arguing that the Italian criminal justice system needs substantial reform, when he's spent large chunks of his time since 2008 posting ever-more-ludicrous articles on TJMK about the magnificence and propriety of Italian justice. Quennell: please just go away for a while. Your view is not valid and not of value.
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Here's something you might find interesting, these are the 'predictions' of a year ago in the case of a successful acquittal, by the Italian nicked 'Broken_English' at IIP who offered knowledge of Italy and its legal system, and a little wit besides. Oddly enough he also mentions the Black Widow which was something I was trying to find again last summer and was unable, though my computer got something nasty on it in the endeavor--stay away from Moldovan websites!


Broken_English IIP said:
Quote:
What happens immediately after a not guilty verdict



Silvia Bongiorno will do a benevolent smile, She will give sight to some blind children, She will multiply the loaves and fishes, and then She will be transported by angels in flight until her new chair of Minister. (Or, if you prefer, She will reach the Ministry riding her broom)

Amanda will declare to have always had faith in justice (and then she will run to the first church to light a giant votive candle)


Raffaele's father will declare to have always had faith in justice (and then he'll take her son by an ear, and he'll make to him a speech about "women")

Mignini will quote Baron Pierre De Coubertin: "The important thing in life is not to win but to imprison people". He will receive a message of solidarity from Harry John Woodcock. (The most unlucky prosecutor of Italy, all the people that he does imprison are later acquitted).

Maresca lose his self-esteem, he will begin to drink, he will stop shaving. Days later he will be stopped by a policeman while he was slashing, with the keys, the car body of the judge Pratillo Helmann.

The cops of the Flying Squad in Perugia will be sent to maintain order at the stadium (much worse than Afghanistan)


The ordinary sunday of an Italian policeman 2'33"


Rocco Girlanda will be back in prison at Perugia-Capanne but this time, without the parliamentary immunity, he should stay there longer.

All Italian politicians will claim to have fought for the liberation of Amanda

Berlusconi will provide a jet to bring Amanda at home (but before: bunga-bunga)


The British pro-guilty blame the "corrupt" Italian justice. They will promote a boycott of Italian products: they will not buy anymore Ferrari, Lamborghini, Jacuzzi, Bulgari, Armani, Versace until there will be a new trial (but since the collapse of the pound sterling during the reign of the Blair government the British can only admire the Italian products on television, so this boycott will have no practical consequence :twisted: )

The friends of Amanda will do a big party, Michael will be so happy that he will give up his plan of ask Congress for bombing Italy. :D
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RoseMontague said:
You can sure tell that she was gnashing her teeth in writing a not guilty article, had to throw in some disparaging stuff, just to maintain her sanity.

[tt]Witchgirl[/tt] Stop

[tt]not guilty[/tt] Stop

[tt]going home[/tt] Stop

[tt]Rah[/tt] Stop

[tt]Rah[/tt] Stop

Shame the BB code won't allow the typewriter style. Bummer.
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:D:D
 
LondonJohn said:
Ahh, I don't know if "The Machine" over on .org is ignorant or mendacious when he writes the following nonsense:




As I posted the other day, Knox's erstwhile cellmate (Angela Biriukova) was acquitted in the first trial (i.e the level of the Massei trial), but then found guilty in the appeal trial (i.e. the level of the Hellmann trial). The guilty verdict of the appeal trial was then examined and affirmed by the Supreme Court. Biriukova was categorically not acquitted by the appeal court and then convicted by the Supreme Court. "The Machine" (AKA Harry Rag) is a sad joke who is deeply over-invested in an irrational and dogmatic belief in Knox's/Sollecito's guilt. If I were him, I'd be maintaining a dignified silence now, followed by a quiet withdrawal from the scene.
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Is that the guy that claimed he had inside info and there was less than a 1% chance Amanda would be acquitted? Why do his minions still follow what he says? They must all be extremely delusional. Very cult like. Very scary.
 
icerat said:
The Mirror has a Kercher response -

Amanda Knox freed: shocked Meredith Kercher's family say decision is "absolutely ludicrous"

Truly sad how they've been misled. From Meredith's father -



He was correct on the last point, alas.
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The tragic thing is--about the 'evidence' that is--they memorized the talking points, but they never understood what they meant. It never occurred to them that no one would have cared in the slightest about that ridiculous DNA 'evidence' if there actually was 'bloody footprints,' 'mixed blood' or if anyone but a fanatic could see Raffaele's foot and his only in that bathmat. That bra clasp and murder knife were absurd as 'evidence' of murder, but they were the best this case had--the only implications Raffaele and Amanda were in the murder room. The rest of it was just spin like the 'staged' break-in, or imaginary like anything to do with a clean-up; the only 'evidence' provided for that being that they couldn't find anything of Raffaele and Amanda at the murder scene, and negative evidence of there not actually being a clean up--being as the scene obviously wasn't cleaned up--becomes pretty damning.
 
The court has spoken: The crimes were not committed, the crime scene was not staged, and yet the ranting continues. Why can this ruling not be respected as impartial justice?:mad:

It won’t be possible to know how the decision of the court was reached until it publishes its detailed motivation report. But I find it hard to imagine how it will make sense. The disheartening expectation I have, which I think others will share, it that it will offer the reasoning of a court that has crumpled under the pressure of a public relations campaign. A humiliating day for Italy.

And, of course, a heartbreaking tragedy if you are able to spare a thought for the Kercher family. Tomorrow, one of their daughter’s murderers will fly home to ticker-tape and a small fortune. Another, like the drummer in successful rock band, will take a smaller share of the royalties, but the proceeds, taking into account possible government compensation, may still be enough so that he is at liberty to choose whether or not he ever wants to work in his life or not. Merdith Kercher’s death seems almost reduced to the level of a smart career move.

Today’s verdict will undoubtedly, however, be appealed. That’s more than a speculative exercise, since it does happen than people are acquitted at first appeal and then found guilty by Italy’s supreme court. But the focus of the second appeal will be much narrower, restricted only to questions of law and logic. Although that is construed fairly widely in the Italian system, what it means is that the decision of the appeal court can’t be corrected simply because it is wrong. It will have to be shown to be legally unsound before any evidence can be re-examined. Until the motivation report from the appeal is published, it is impossible to say what the chances of the prosecutors succeeding in a further appeal might be.
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http://maundygregory.wordpress.com/
 
Solomon would be proud.

DarkStar2011 said:
Mignini has already said he will appeal any overturning of the first verdict, on the grounds that the time-limit had already passed for requesting a review of DNA evidence (nonwithstanding the fact that it had been requested at the first trial, and denied by Massei), and that, therefore, the C-V report should be deemed inadmissible and the original verdict reinstated.

Of course, even if that happened, Knox will be long since back in Seattle, and I don't see any court in the U.S. enforcing an extradition order under those circumstances. I wouldn't be surprised if Sollectio's family gets him to a country without extradition treaties with Italy, either, until all prosecution appeals are exhausted.

And I would personally expect Knox to appeal the slander charge, on the grounds that her interrogation statement was introduced (via civil suit) even though the Supreme Court had ruled that it couldn't be used. Sure, she's already served the jail time, but I see no reason why she shouldn't fight having to pay damages to Lumumba...let alone the legal fees of the worm who called her a "dirty-souled she-devil" and "spell-casting witch."

For that matter, I wonder if her lawyers might now be considering some calumnia charges of their own...
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Plus this "split the baby" outcome discounts by 75% the funds Italy owes AK for her false imprisonment. I hope she appeals the remaining guilty vedict to the Supremes so that Italy pays all that they owe her - it will still not be enough to compensate for 4 lost years of her life.

Plus I think AK's ECHR case ought to be worth 3 - 5 million Euros. Of course, who knows where Italy will find the funds to pay her - they are broke (too many wild goose cases by the likes of Mignini I suppose (wonder how that manslaughter case is going against the 7 scientists who didn't forecast the earthquake?).
 
:bwall

Can someone please explain to me how, after essentially two trials, a convicted criminal for a prosecutor, proven lies by police, prosecution, forensics testimony (shown on video no less), can there still be those who will still only believe the lies spread by the prosecution propaganda campaign that started 4 years ago. Lies that have either never been proven to be true or have been disproved during this appeal trial? I've gotten so frustrated and angry at another site I just finally had to stop responding because I was getting really snarky in my posts. I just cannot wrap my head around this way of viewing this trial. I'm generally a pro prosecution person! I almost always view what the defense does as smoke and mirrors to find any kind of reasonable doubt, but this case went beyond my reasonable doubt threshold into complete did not do it. Which in all honesty has only happened one other time. The judge said, paraphrasing here, that they didn't do it, not that there was reasonable doubt. The judge said there was no break in staging, it was a break in. I'm totally befuddled and frustrated at the attitude of some!!!!
 
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