Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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two supertankers are better than one

I don't understand why the seattlepi, of all papers, still pays her to write articles on this case. Have they completely lost it? Last week she was talking about mixed blood. Now we have the insinuation that the "pr supertanker" is coordinating its "story" with the Italian defense team. Maybe they are all saying the same thing because... um... they are telling the truth? And that "multi million" thing is an outright lie!

Sheesh, I feel like my head is going to explode whenever I see another one of her stupid "articles". Can't her and Barbie just go shopping or something and stop writing all this nonsense?
spartacus,

With both Barbie and Andrea, it is always a tough call whether what they write about is worse than what they don't write about. How much have you heard from either one about the egregious lack of discovery in this case? The million-dollar PR campaign became two million at dot org a few days ago, and now it is a multimillion dollar campaign. That will be the new pro-guilt talking point, I guess: Knox and Sollecito bought their way to freedom. What utter garbage!
 
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spartacus,

With both Barbie and Andrea, it is always a tough call whether what they write about is worse than what they don't write about. How much have you heard from either one about the egregious lack of discovery in this case? The million-dollar PR campaign became two million at dot org a few days ago, and now it is a multimillion dollar campaign. That will be the new pro-guilt talking point, I guess. Knox and Sollecito bought their way to freedom. What utter garbage!

Thank goodness for motivation reports...
 
So is that the best they got? An ambiguous phrase? The Matteini Report has the Polizia Postale arriving at 12:35, 'obviously' before Raffaele's call to the Carabinieri. I read that they they got an admission to this on the fifth, the statement of 10:40, but that's all it amounted to?

It would seem so. Good for 25 years in Perugia. Smoke and mirrors.
 
Attn, Brits

Many of you reading this thread, yea?

Your betting parlours issue a gambling line on just about everything under the sun, it seems.

They giving any odds on the outcome of the Knox appeal?
 
Never been inside a bookie's, so I have no idea how to find out. I wonder if Mr. Google knows...?

Rolfe.
 
Andrea Vogt wrote, "There is also a strange sense here of the message being very scripted -- the result of a multi-million dollar media and public relations push from the U.S. that is now perfectly syncronized with the Italian defense team and its supporters -- both in court and out." She got that right. It won't be long before I trade last year's Maserati in for a Lamborghini.

She also said:

The fact that this is a trial about a brutal murder of a young woman seems to be the last thing on many minds.

Frankly I am getting tired of this appeal to emotion as a way to imply guilt for Raffaele. The court knows Meredith was murdered, they indicated that was the only agreed upon fact they started with. No doubt they also know it was a brutal murder. The purpose of this trial, what it is about, is to establish if Raffaele and the Witchgirl had anything to do with this murder.

They are innocent. Remember Meredith in other ways that don't include sending two innocent people to jail for decades.
 
To my thinking, this makes more sense, and despite what jurisprudence standards state, the defense often would seem really and actually to have the burden of proof.

Ok you are both half right. :) In the USA, the prosecution makes the first closing argument followed by the defense BUT then the prosecution and ONLY THE PROSECUTION makes a rebuttal argument. The reasoning is the prosecution has the burden of proof and must prove its case beyond a reasonable doubt.

Reasonable doubt is a very new concept in Italian law - less than 10 years since it was layered on top of what is a inquisitorial system with elements remaining from Roman times and the Napoleonic Code. Apparently, they think it is fairer to hear from everyone a second time - after all this is supposed to be a search for the truth.
 
chestnuts

Amazing where the surf takes you....

Wut??!! http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4002791.ece Where did that go in the past three years?

Rolfe.
Rolfe,

I think if you search on Francesca Bene (a reporter) here or elsewhere, you may get another chunk of the story. The appendix to the Monster of Florence covers it, IIRC. Ms. Bene was afraid of getting into trouble for even looking into this guy. I think he might actually have said words to the effect, "I am going to kill her," but someone may remember the story better than I do. I think it was ultimately a non-story, except for Ms. Bene, who implied that one female member of PLE had a violent streak. I think she is the one with chestnut-coloured hair.
ETA
Amanda identified the policewoman who cuffed her as having chestnut-coloured hair, IIRC.
 
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To be honest, what we're seeing here from yeti101 (and, from a lesser extent, from lionking) is a form of diversion I'm quite familiar with when speaking about the case with those of the pro-guilt orientation. When it comes to discussion of the evidence of the case, switch the discussion to the "confession"/"false accusation"/whatever. Interestingly enough, this line of inquiry is not pressed in the sense one might expect, as "well, why should there be any doubt of guilt, since Knox herself confessed?" Instead, emphasis is placed on the "false accusation" aspect, as a way to portray Knox as having freely tried to get someone she "knew to be innocent" punished for the crime.

In fact, it's back to arguing the case, not on its merits, but on the supposed bad character of the defendants -- much as the "dirty-souled, she-devil, spell-casting witch" rhetoric does -- by implying that one or both is such a bad person that they well could have committed the crime. After all, if you'll willingly commit perjury and try to get an innocent person punished, why wouldn't you commit murder without a second thought? And, if you can plant the idea in people's minds that these two were conscienceless enough to easily commit murder, it becomes much easier for them to imagine them doing so, and deciding that said imagined scene is what really happened.

But, in fact, that is an illegitimate way to decide a criminal case. (Although, ironically enough, it has a certain parallel in the supposed actions of the Perugian police during the investigation -- repeatedly telling Knox that "they knew" the murderer's identity, and inviting her to "imagine" what might have happened, until she agreed to it herself.) A criminal case should always be decided on the evidence itself...and, at this point, there's virtually none left standing to implicate Knox or Sollecito, but a vast amount implicating Guede and only Guede.

If the evidence isn't present to convict, the character of the defendants should matter not at all. It shouldn't make a difference if Amanda Knox was a Mother Teresa or a Mommie Dearest. Even if she was the most evil person on earth, if the evidence doesn't prove that she was in that room and stabbed Meredeth Kercher to death, then justice requires she be acquitted. The same goes for Sollecito as well. If there's a further issue with either or both of them making false statements to police, there should be a further criminal process related specifically to that charge, and, if found guilty, they should be sentenced to the proper punishment for that offense (fortunately for the defendants, Italian law -- unlike yeti101 -- mandates far less than forty years). But it is a legal absurdity to punish perjury with a murder conviction, or to imply that a person's alleged character, and an alleged propensity to be willing to commit a given crime demonstrated by that character, should be sufficient for conviction, in the absence of convincing proof, beyond a reasonable doubt, that they actually did commit that particular crime.

Excellent post Darkstar2011!!
 
I note the posters on PMF agreeing that the defence arguments were very weak. And it was outrageous of Ghirga to have given Amanda a hug, because she's a convicted murderer!

I wonder what planet they're on, but actually it's understandable. The defence case was pretty much what we've been saying for months. They've heard it all and rejected it all. They're not suddenly going to see these arguments as persuasive just because it's the defence advocates making them. They've pre-dismissed everything.

Hopefully, the judges have a bit more sense.

Rolfe.

I notice they're perspective seems to be largely based off totally ignoring C&V in this trial.

While the verdict waits,
What does a reduced sentence seem like?

a positive its reduced?

a negative its not an acquittal?

a negative its not increased sentence?

Reduction is a possibility on the list.
Massei set the stage it was Rudys evil they supported. Hellmans court will go from there, with only a review of the C&V and the Curatolo. (the prisoners flopped, Rudy showed up and refuses to show one miniscule morsel of truth in respect for the Kerchers or anyone else. imo)

What would a Reduced Sentence report read like?

"We, the court, found them guilty, but really not that bad of guilty, actually more a wishy washy kind of Guilty, but with a nice reduction to show we are personally good people at heart, and a lot of us think them innocent, but still, better if the SC make the tough decision. Yours Truly , Anonymous"
 
Rolfe,

I think if you search on Francesca Bene (a reporter) here or elsewhere, you may get another chunk of the story. The appendix to the Monster of Florence covers it, IIRC. Ms. Bene was afraid of getting into trouble for even looking into this guy. I think he might actually have said words to the effect, "I am going to kill her," but someone may remember the story better than I do. I think it was ultimately a non-story, except for Ms. Bene, who implied that one female member of PLE had a violent streak. I think she is the one with chestnut colored hair.

Bene complained that the cops were not investigating this and Mignini called her in for a little "chat".

8. Francesca Bene, who works for a small Italian paper, Giornale dell 'Umbria, who was interrogated by one of the same police women that interrogated Amanda Knox and was indicted for causing public alarm by publishing false information.

http://knoxarchives.blogspot.com/2010/02/another-giuliano-mignini-defamation.html

There turned out there was nothing to the story, IIRC. Mignini was not happy with this reporter for being critical of the investigation and the cops.
 
Ok you are both half right. :) In the USA, the prosecution makes the first closing argument followed by the defense BUT then the prosecution and ONLY THE PROSECUTION makes a rebuttal argument. The reasoning is the prosecution has the burden of proof and must prove its case beyond a reasonable doubt.

Reasonable doubt is a very new concept in Italian law - less than 10 years since it was layered on top of what is a inquisitorial system with elements remaining from Roman times and the Napoleonic Code. Apparently, they think it is fairer to hear from everyone a second time - after all this is supposed to be a search for the truth.

Thanks for this excellent info; very enlightening...
 
gambling

Many of you reading this thread, yea?

Your betting parlours issue a gambling line on just about everything under the sun, it seems.

They giving any odds on the outcome of the Knox appeal?
lane99,

I looked this up (long after the fact) for the Duke lacrosse case, on which I blogged a few times. Someone into sports gambling was taking odds on how many DL players' DNA would be found from Ms. Mangum's rape kit. It is interesting that 1-2 matches was considered the most likely result, followed by 0 matches (the correct answer), which had even odds. From what I recall, less than 20% bet that the correct number was 0 matches. I think that there is information in such odds. Presumably the people who place these bets are doing so for no other reason than to make money. Unfortunately, I cannot find the odds for the present trial, but there is one relevant link.
 
You are mistaken. Your use of "suspect" in this context means only "person of interest", not a legal category in Italian law.
Legally Amanda became suspect when there was evidence that she may be involved in the crime.
Amanda's 1:45AM confession produced this evidence.
Before that she had been only a "person of interest".
For example the police intercepted also Filomena ond others, so they were somewhat suspicous of them at that time.
But they never "gained" suspect status.

That's completely ridiculous, unless you accept the "status of suspect" to be something that the police can apply entirely arbitrarily, in order to suit their agenda.
The impression that it was not an engineered collapse.

What "impression"? The circumstances and nature of the interrogation are exactly what leads to coerced statements. Anyone who doesn't recognise this has clearly never taken an interest in miscarriages of justice.
I don't think so.
The only reason I think they are guilty is because based on my knowledge of the case I find it more logical than the opposite.
Of course, I could be mistaken.

That conclusion rather depends on what you "know" about the case. This case has been remarkable for the amount of demonstrably false information that is prevalent, and is still being repeated with confidence by ill-informed people in the comments section of just about every news story.

In order for it to be "logical" that they are guilty, you have to believe:

  • that after all of 6 days together, their sex life had become so tedious that they felt they needed this kind of excitement (instead of staying at Raff's flat on a chilly November evening);
  • that they would join forces with an almost complete stranger (and against one of their own friends) in their thrill-seeking;
  • that they committed the murder within about 35 minutes of being seen at Raff's flat, and while videos were being played on his computer there - either that or the victim's digestive processes went into suspension for a period of some hours;
  • that the police had the benefit of psychic powers in identifying the real murderers before they had any evidence;
  • that having committed the murder, AK and RS were able to remove all traces of themselves in the murder room, and stage a burglary that was indistinguishable from the real thing;
  • that having fixed the scene to look like Guede had committed the crime on his own, Amanda would forget about this 4 days later and point the finger at someone completely unconnected;
  • that 4 years on, neither of them would have accused the other of the crime in order to claim lesser guilt.
Sorry, it's a mystery to me why you should think this preposterous supposition, unsupported by any coherent evidence, is more "logical" than the simple, obvious sequence of events:

  • the crime was committed by a lone criminal, who left his traces all over the scene, and admitted being there;
  • the police rushed to "solve" the crime the easy way, before any evidence was known;
  • once the real evidence came out, the police and prosecution embarked on constructing a case that didn't exist, rather than admit that they'd got it wrong.
This is the sort of thing that happens all the time - but unfortunately there are too many people in thrall to authority to recognise it.
 
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Never been inside a bookie's, so I have no idea how to find out. I wonder if Mr. Google knows...?

Rolfe.

Well , he didn't at first blush. Which subsequently led to my enquiry here.

I know the British bookie's (William Hill, for example) do have websites where they regularly publish the odds for online gambling on traditional sporting events. I follow the boxing matches there.

Anyhoo, if anyone comes across a line on the Knox/Sollecito appeal, please post it.

p.s. Or it's done to lose money, H1 :-) But, yes, it's usually about money. Though, occasionally, it can be a form of showing the courage of your, um, convictions.
 
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Ok you are both half right. :) In the USA, the prosecution makes the first closing argument followed by the defense BUT then the prosecution and ONLY THE PROSECUTION makes a rebuttal argument. The reasoning is the prosecution has the burden of proof and must prove its case beyond a reasonable doubt.

I don't see how that "reasoning" supports that conclusion.

It almost seems like the argument is "well, since the prosecution has the handicap of the burden of proof being on them, we'd better give them the advantage of the last word to compensate". But there isn't supposed to be compensation! They're supposed to have that burden!
 
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maybe Mr. Spock could calculate the odds

Well , he didn't at first blush. Which subsequently led to my enquiry here.

I know the British bookie's (William Hill, for example) do have websites where they regularly publish the odds for online gambling on traditional sporting events. I follow the boxing matches there.

Anyhoo, if anyone comes across a line on the Knox/Sollecito appeal, please post it.
I found this just now, but it does not sound as if anyone is actually betting. I don't gamble, so I don't know the lingo.
 
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