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Merged Apollo "hoax" discussion / Lick observatory laser saga

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Why would he express relief? I've never heard an EMS pilot say "Oh thank goodness, we can land the helicopter on this stretch of highway!" Armstrong was doing the same thing - selecting a good landing site.

Give up on this line, son. You're in way over your head.
 
Why would he express relief? I've never heard an EMS pilot say "Oh thank goodness, we can land the helicopter on this stretch of highway!" Armstrong was doing the same thing - selecting a good landing site.

Give up on this line, son. You're in way over your head.

Well, I don't know about anyone else, but I'm convinced.
 
You miss the point, there may not have been a flat spot, and if there was, Armstrong would then have expressed great genuine relief that there was. That is, were any of this real.
How do you know Armstrong didn't express "great genuine relief"?
 
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Like I said bro, wake up and smell the TANG!

Why would he express relief? I've never heard an EMS pilot say "Oh thank goodness, we can land the helicopter on this stretch of highway!" Armstrong was doing the same thing - selecting a good landing site.

Give up on this line, son. You're in way over your head.

In over my head? Hardly. Don't think so my friend. Bet you're feeling a tad nervous ain'tcha SUSpilot?

Kind of freaky isn't it, putting all of that stuff in space over your head? Making up all these silly stories. So many high level leaders, diplomats, and so forth aware to some greater or lesser degree.

Making up stories about who we are. It is funny SUSpilot, as we have creation myth stories, so too do we also make up tales about where we see ourselves going. Stories about our becoming. Stories with vision. These are perhaps more important even than the stories we tell ourselves about where we have come from.

"Apollo" is such a tale, a visionary tale, but one so very inauthentic and contrived that ultimately all cannot help but come to know it as the embarrassment, the failed attempt to be something that we could never possibly be that it is.

Once upon a time, Apollo was rational, quite rational. But now? I assume there is still too much to hide, that the program in a sense is still "active". It is the only thing that makes any sense. I mean, how does Neil Armstrong do that stuff with a straight face? It is quite literally unbelievable. He must be in so so so much pain. Breaks your heart, doesn't it?




Does mine.
 
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Watch the Post Flight press conference, watch any interview with Armstrong.

How do you know Armstrong didn't express "great genuine relief"?

Watch the Post Flight Press Conference, watch any interview with Armstrong. We are who we are and not who we pretend to be. Armstrong never walked on the moon. Look at him! Listen to his words! He has never looked square into the face of eternity. It is so sad really, to watch him, listen to him. An X-15 pilot no less, and reduced to that? Pathetic...... Breaks one's heart. I imagine he regrets it now, though is such a stand up person, that part of his character still intact, the ONLY thing that functions, the only thing holding him together in any sense, a violently tortured will keeping a now senseless secret. Uhg! What shall happen when we openly acknowledge this truth? Perhaps we shall feel relieved for Armstrong and the others, for ourselves as well. That would be helpful for them I think, for the astronauts, if we could share in their sense of relief, relief in our not having to pretend.

Ironically, when the day comes, for those of them still alive, I imagine they will then experience some sense of having been delivered through some horrific whirl of fear, as though they had really gone to the moon, and then were oddly transformed into the very men they had been pretending to be.
 
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I can make up a million scenarios.
You don't need to make them up - they happen in reality all of the time.

The point is, once a pilot drifts from that area, that domain, that patch of territory which he has studied and planned for, he may well be in trouble.
Yes, 'he may well be in trouble' is about as serious as the situation got. So what does one do in that situation - pull the plug and account to your superiors and the tax-paying public for a lack of courage that you were specifically selected against later? No, you keep a cool head and continue on in the hope, if not expectation, that fortune, if not probability, will play a fair hand. After all, when one looks at the terrain where the landing took place, it wasn't particularly hazardous, which I'm sure came as no major surprise to those involved. Why do you insist that descending the LM onto an uncharted patch of the Moon (with no atmosphere) is any harder than putting a C-130 on the back of a carrier in moderately rough seas some SIX YEARS BEFORE APOLLO?

Armstrong could have flown that bogus bird into a field of cheering playboy bunnies for all he knew once they went off course.
You see, this highlights your problem (well, one of your problems). Your tendency is to think in extremes. You might think this somewhat satirical, but I think it actually belies your true mindset.

He expresses no concern, conveys no sense there may have been difficulties, but fortunately there were not. He acts as though nothing is a big deal. There is no element of genuine content, drama, adventure in his recounting of events.
I really don't see why you're making such a big issue of this (other than clutching at straws). I suspect there are millions of people displaying such demeanour towards events in their lives that you and I can only look on with awe. Have you ever seen war veterans under interview recount their tales of danger and heroics? Do they still seem scared, agitated, anxious 65 years on? Would you really expect them to?

He is nervous. He is measured, too mesured. He is not a real astronaut.
And your qualifications in psychology would be what, exactly? Please describe a 'real astronaut' to us, by reference to living examples, specifically citing recorded behaviour during times of stress, such as during the LM landing.

I don't deny one such as Armstrong might land the bird, it is just it becomes very dicey at that point, 20,000 feet west of where they want to be and this is for starters.
It becomes 'very dicey'. This is the basis of your argument that it simply couldn't be done, because it became 'very dicey'?! :rolleyes:

Armstrong has never flown the Eagle before.
:confused:

There were no greatly detailed maps in existence at the time where people could look and say, "Well here they go, over this area, and it has such and such features". It is all unknown to a very significant degree.
You mean just like landing a light aircraft on an unmade strip? There's a trick to doing things like that P1K - it's called 'looking'!

What about mascon effects there? What if they had been 10,000 feet down range instead of 20,000?, or 100,000 instead of 20,000? At 5,000 feet per second, they can go way off course in a hurry.
Going off course isn't the issue. Finding a reasonable spot to land is the issue. As it happens it proved to be less of a challenge than it might have been. So what? What's the big deal? You never parked a car into a tight spot? It's far from impossible - a little skill and vigilence usually wins the day.
 
You miss the point, there may not have been a flat spot, and if there was, Armstrong would then have expressed great genuine relief that there was.
Well there was a flat spot, evidently, and frankly I'm not surprised there was. Seems to me the Moon is littered with flat spots, interspersed with craters and boulders, but mostly flat spots. Why do you insist that there wasn't an expectation of locating a reasonable landing spot? Do you have evidence to show that it would be unreasonable to assume that a reasonable landing spot would in all likelihood be so elusive that one should abort the mission? Well do you?

How do you know Armstrong didn't express "great genuine relief"?
Or at least feel relief, if not express it. I'm not exactly one for expressing relief after times of stress, but I'm certainly not test pilot material. In fact somewhat of a habitual worrier, I dare say. :eek:
 
I can do arithmetic.

You don't need to make them up - they happen in reality all of the time.


Yes, 'he may well be in trouble' is about as serious as the situation got. So what does one do in that situation - pull the plug and account to your superiors and the tax-paying public for a lack of courage that you were specifically selected against later? No, you keep a cool head and continue on in the hope, if not expectation, that fortune, if not probability, will play a fair hand. After all, when one looks at the terrain where the landing took place, it wasn't particularly hazardous, which I'm sure came as no major surprise to those involved. Why do you insist that descending the LM onto an uncharted patch of the Moon (with no atmosphere) is any harder than putting a C-130 on the back of a carrier in moderately rough seas some SIX YEARS BEFORE APOLLO?


You see, this highlights your problem (well, one of your problems). Your tendency is to think in extremes. You might think this somewhat satirical, but I think it actually belies your true mindset.


I really don't see why you're making such a big issue of this (other than clutching at straws). I suspect there are millions of people displaying such demeanour towards events in their lives that you and I can only look on with awe. Have you ever seen war veterans under interview recount their tales of danger and heroics? Do they still seem scared, agitated, anxious 65 years on? Would you really expect them to?


And your qualifications in psychology would be what, exactly? Please describe a 'real astronaut' to us, by reference to living examples, specifically citing recorded behaviour during times of stress, such as during the LM landing.


It becomes 'very dicey'. This is the basis of your argument that it simply couldn't be done, because it became 'very dicey'?! :rolleyes:


:confused:


You mean just like landing a light aircraft on an unmade strip? There's a trick to doing things like that P1K - it's called 'looking'!


Going off course isn't the issue. Finding a reasonable spot to land is the issue. As it happens it proved to be less of a challenge than it might have been. So what? What's the big deal? You never parked a car into a tight spot? It's far from impossible - a little skill and vigilence usually wins the day.

I am not a psychologist, but I can do arithmetic. The telemetry data as reported in the Mission Report is fraudulent. Has to be. Can't have it both ways. Can't say these are the coordinate solutions and then not tell Collins to look there. Can't say these are the coordinate solutions, when the Flight Dynamics Officer on duty at the time of the Eagle's launch, H. David Reed, wrote in his very own book chapter on the subject, NO THEY ARE NOT, I NEVER SAW THOSE NUMBERS.

I am not a psychologist, but I can do grade school math and so can easily solve the coordinate confusion riddle. Not because I am any smarter than anyone else, but simply because I go where the numbers and associated facts lead. I am not afraid of what the numbers show. I am not afraid to follow the numbers to where they inevitably lead us. And they most decidedly do not lead to the moon, as you should by now be well able to see Southwind17, not by a long shot.

We know Apollo fraudulent with metaphysical certitude because the contradiction, the internal incoherence that is Apollo can ONLY BE RESOLVED BY ACKNOWLEDGING THE OBVIOUS, ITS VERY FRAUDULENCE.

If people write numbers in reports such as the Apollo 11 Mission Report to intentionally deceive us, then we must acknowledge that quite simply this is indeed the case. It hardly makes any sense to pretend the authors of these reports honest, the astronauts honest. What good does it serve anyone now? There are many things which threaten us, including Russian ICBMs still, but Beaver Cleaver grew up long ago, graduated from CAL with a degree in philosophy and lives very much outside of a tv set now. The world wears a different face i dare say, as indeed does outer space itself.

I may find here and there as I go over things that I have made small, simple mistakes with my numbers, but my analysis as outlined above and as continues to evolve is very very solid. It cannot possibly be other than true because it is based on NASA's own reports.

In my above analysis I only used one document, the Apollo 11 Mission Report, and showed within that very singular document , it is said that the landing site coordinates in real-time were believed to be in such and such a place and then in another table down range a page or two, we find a completely different story, that the landing site was in a completely different place altogether. Don't pee on my back and tell me it is raining, even if we are pretending to be in outer space here. They try and fool us by writing the coordinates 3 different ways Southwind17, conventional decimal notation, in radians and then using the "military map" with the missing I and O. So am I fooled? NO. Were the 20 something flight officers fooled including the lead FIDO, H. David Reed? YES YES YES!!! Shall we not leave such foolishness and move on to better things Southwind17? Have we not played this silly pretend game long enough? Armstrong for one would feel relieved.

I am not a psychologist, but I add well. I can do arithmetic. Even when I make a mistake, I can go back , do it again, find my way to the truth, as I have done here.

My argument's basis is telemetry fraud, coordinate confusion, everything else follows, and it must follow for the telemetry fraud, the numbers game of Shyster, or whoever put it together, is OBVIOUS!!! and as such, is quite literally inescapable.

They lied to you Southwind17, that is if you ever believed it to begin with. Look at them! Listen to them! Alan Bean could not fly a space ship! Get a Grip dude! Get Real! The guy is sweet. He can sort of paint. He is NOT AN ASTRONAUT. Not in the sense of Apollo mythology.

Wake up and smell the TANG my friend!
 
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I am not a psychologist, but I can do arithmetic. The telemetry data as reported in the Mission Report is fraudulent. Has to be. Can't have it both ways. Can't say these are the coordinate solutions and then not tell Collins to look there. Can't say these are the coordinate solutions, when the Flight Dynamics Officer on duty at the time of the Eagle's launch wrote in his very own book chapter on the subject, NO THEY ARE NOT, I NEVER SAW THOSE NUMBERS.

I am not a psychologist, but I can do grade school math and so can easily solve the coordinate confusion riddle. Not because I am any smarter than anyone else, but simply because I go where the numbers and associated facts lead. I am not afraid of what the numbers show. I am not afraid to follow the numbers to where they inevitably lead us. And they most decidedly do not lead to the moon, as you should be able to well see Southwind17, not by a long shot.

We know Apollo fraudulent with metaphysical certitude because the contradiction, the internal incoherence that is Apollo can ONLY BE RESOLVED BY ACKNOWLEDGING THE OBVIOUS, ITS VERY FRAUDULENCE.

If people write numbers in reports such as the Apollo 11 Mission Report to intentionally deceive us, then we must acknowledge that quite simply this is indeed the case. It hardly makes any sense to pretend the authors of these reports honest, the astronauts honest. What good does it serve anyone now? There are many things which threaten us, including Russian ICBMs still, but Beaver Cleaver grew up long ago, graduated from CAL with a degree in philosophy and lives very much outside of a tv set now. The world wears a different face i dare say.

I may find here and there as I go over things that I have made small, simple mistakes with my numbers, but my analysis as outlined above and as continues to evolve is very very solid. It cannot possibly be other than true because it is based on NASA's own reports.

In my above analysis I only used one document the Mission Report, and showed within that very singular document , it is said both the landing site coordinates in real-time were believed to be in such and such a place and then in another table down range a page or two, we find a completely different story. They try and fool us by writing the coordinates 3 different ways Southwind17, conventional decimal notation, in radians and then using the "military map" with the missing I and O. So am I fooled? NO. Were the 20 something flight officers? YES. Shall we not leave such foolishness and move on to better things Southwind17? Armstrong for one would feel relieved.

I am not a psychologist, but I add well. I can do arithmetic. Even when I make a mistake, I can go back , do it again, find my way to the truth, as I have done here.

They lied to you Southwind17, that is if you ever believed it to begin with. Look at them! Listen to them! Alan Bean could not fly a space ship! Get a Grip dude! Get Real! The guy is sweet. He can sort of paint. He is NOT AN ASTRONAUT. Not in the sense of Apollo mythology.

Wake up and smell the TANG my friend!
So, to be absolutely clear, in a paragraph (short one please), please summarise how the numbers PROVE Apollo 11 didn't land on the Moon. Please remember that not landing where one would have liked does not amount to not landing at all.
 
Numbers

So, to be absolutely clear, in a paragraph (short one please), please summarise how the numbers PROVE Apollo 11 didn't land on the Moon. Please remember that not landing where one would have liked does not amount to not landing at all.

FIDO H. David Reed says the five landing site solutions he was shown when he walked into work on the morning of 07/21/1969 were very different from one another, not even close to one another, and so he did not use any of them in his launch solution. He solved for the landing site/launch situation using rendezvous radar "in reverse", and his solution wound up being only 1200 feet from the official Tranquility Base coordinates as reported in the Apollo 11 Mission Report. Reed wrote as it turned out that all of the solutions he was initially presented with on the morning of 07/21/1969, including the PNGS solution, AGS solution and Powered Flight Processor solution, were 4 and a half miles from his solution/essentially that of Tranquility Base(00 41 15 north 23 26 00 east). The Apollo 11 Mission Report lists these same solutions; PNGS, AGS, Powered Flight as much much closer to Tranquility Base than 4 and a half miles, as a matter of fact, from .64 to 1.13 miles distant from the LRRR. Additionally, these 3 solutions are very close to one another, 4 tenths of a mile apart. Reed or the Mission Report authors are lying. I say it is the NASA/Mission Report people, and assuming this to be true, the telemetry data, flight dynamics data, is fraudulent, and I conclude the entire Apollo 11 project to be fraudulent as well. Has to be. Its the only reason to go through it all, to fool us with regard to the numbers.
 
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FIDO H. David Reed says the five landing site solutions he was shown when he walked into work on the morning of 07/21/1969 were very different from one another, not even close to one another, and so he did not use any of them in his launch solution. He solved for the landing site/launch situation using rendezvous radar "in reverse", and his solution wound up being only 1200 feet from the official Tranquility Base coordinates as reported in the Apollo 11 Mission Report. Reed wrote as it turned out that all of the solutions he was initially presented with on the morning of 07/21/1969, including the PNGS solution, AGS solution and Powered Flight Processor solution, were 4 and a half miles from his solution/essentially that of Tranquility Base(00 41 15 north 23 26 00 east). The Apollo 11 Mission Report lists these same solutions; PNGS, AGS, Powered Flight as much much closer to Tranquility Base than 4 and a half miles, as a matter of fact, from .64 to 1.13 miles distant from the LRRR. Additionally, these 3 solutions are very close to one another, 4 tenths of a mile apart. Reed or the Mission Report authors are lying. I say it is the NASA/Mission Report people, and assuming this to be true, the telemetry data, flight dynamics data, is fraudulent, and I conclude the entire Apollo 11 project to be fraudulent as well. Has to be. Its the only reason to go through it all, to fool us with regard to the numbers.

As noted in the footnote to the table. The solutions in the report have been corrected for the PDI out of plane instrumentation error.
 
I wonder if it ever occurred to Patrick to ask Reed about the matter. Does Reed think there's a contradiction between the mission report and his own recollections?
 
If Armstrong didn't find a landing spot he wouldn't have landed. What's the big problem?
 
I drop in on the odd occasion when this thread shows up on the first page of New Posts. I am consistently amazed that rational posters are still engaged with P1K. He will not be swayed by evidence nor logic nor data. Yet, here we are on page 89 with JREF posters still trying to do that which is patently impossible, namely, elicit a reasonable response from P1K. Makes me wonder who is really irrational.
 
Well, I still skim Patrick's walls for the occasional nuggests of comedy, and I'm still learning cool stuff about Apollo from the rational posters, so I'm still getting something from this thread (unlike, say, the interminable UFO thread, which had me in its grip for a while but I finally got clean and can just ignore it now).
 
I drop in on the odd occasion when this thread shows up on the first page of New Posts. I am consistently amazed that rational posters are still engaged with P1K. He will not be swayed by evidence nor logic nor data. Yet, here we are on page 89 with JREF posters still trying to do that which is patently impossible, namely, elicit a reasonable response from P1K. Makes me wonder who is really irrational.

Perhaps true, but you must realise everyone is laughing at him.
 
I drop in on the odd occasion when this thread shows up on the first page of New Posts. I am consistently amazed that rational posters are still engaged with P1K. He will not be swayed by evidence nor logic nor data. Yet, here we are on page 89 with JREF posters still trying to do that which is patently impossible, namely, elicit a reasonable response from P1K. Makes me wonder who is really irrational.
I don't think it's a case of irrationality, more a combination of passion, frustration, irritation, persistence, tenacity, entertainment(!), and yes, for some, a genuine attempt to convince. Most, I'd suggest, admiral, albeit, realistically, futile qualities.

What does seem irrational, however, is not having the discipline to resist the urge to 'drop in on the odd occasion', mount one's high horse and seek to lecture whilst completely missing the irony. Yes - I think that seems somewhat irrational.
 
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