• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Merged Apollo "hoax" discussion / Lick observatory laser saga

Status
Not open for further replies.
Figure of speech and I believe a relevant one.

June and Ward Cleaver's America was over by 1969. Like the 1966 navigation issue - our OP seems to have a distorted view of time and/or history.

Do you remember Mary Ellen Rogers? Chewy? The expression, "being given the "business"?" It was all so funny. And when you think about us in those terms, you realize we didn't have the sophistication to make it to the moon. Probably don't even now, though of that I am not entirely sure.
 
This is why the astronauts appear as they do, not as Hilary and Norgay, but simply as nervous men. It is all quite tragic really now here at the end of their lives.

If you're gonna continue with teh mind reading act I'm heading out to the lobby to beat the intermission crowd at the concessions stand.
 
In all honesty RAF, I have already addressed the images to the best of my ability.

Simply saying "I can't see it" only demonstrates the lengths you will go to in order to maintain your fantasy life.

There are dark serpentine marks running about.

Which match EXACTLY the paths taken by the Astronauts...how in the hell can you not see that??

As evidence in and of itself for authentic lunar landings, I must respectfully reject it all. For me, it is not proof of anything, only that such a picture was taken, and absolutely nothing more.

How does it feel to be so ignorant??
 
...you realize we didn't have the sophistication to make it to the moon.


Listen closely troll...STOP INCLUDING "WE" IN YOUR GARBAGE...NO ONE HERE AGREES WITH YOUR STUPID IDEAS.

God, you'd think that by the 20th time he might actually "get it". The "moral" to this...never underestimate how ignorance some people can be.
 
Of course a pilot would be prepared to deal with the unexpected. Indeed, it is the very reason a man like Neil Armstrong would be select for a genuine moon landing were such a feat actually within the capabilities of June and Ward Cleaver's America.

Armstrong was a former X-15 pilot, one of the best, if not the best. Surely he would be able to improvise.
Armstrong would have related an experience qualified by fear and uncertainty.
Isn't that a blatant contradiction? I would suggest that 'fear' is something that sits largely outside a seasoned test pilot's emotion when it comes to flying/landing under pressure. Isn't that the nature of a test pilot's psyche?

He knew not what 00 41 15 north and 23 26 00 east would look like.
But he could see the terrain, as can we from the footage, and it looked OK.

Sure he was said to have studied maps, but had he studied in detail tens of millions of square meters worth of lunar landscape in all directions about the originally intended target site? Well indeed he did not. Of course he did not.
Irrelevant - see above.

Furthermore, in the story as related by Armstrong himself, neither he nor Aldrin have the opportunity to observe in even a cursory fashion the topology which is passing beneath them. In Armstrong's own words, he is dealing with the clearing of alarms, and so doesn't even begin to notice where he is. As a matter of fact, this is the very reason he gives for not knowing where they landed.
Isn't this also a blatant contradiction? If correct, what's the relevance of studying even a 200x200m designated landing site?

And even under the best of circumstances, starting 20,000 feet downrange, without alarms going off, now heading for boulders instead of flats ...
'Boulders'? By who's reckoning?

... flying a bird you'd never flown before ...
:confused:

... mascons feigning at you from this and that direction.
Exaggeration?

Fuel supply limited.
As expected.

Well the whole story is preposterous, absurd, ridiculous, never happened, could not have possibly have ever happened.
Story? What 'story'? It only purports to be story telling, indeed 'tall' story telling, when your dramatic SFX is added.

This is why the astronauts appear as they do, not as Hilary and Norgay, but simply as nervous men. It is all quite tragic really now here at the end of their lives.
You make this sound as though they're still perspiring over the unexpected landing, 40 years on. How can you possibly even hope to understand these men, both then and now? What ground-breaking life experiences of your own are you basing your supposed understanding of psychology, human behaviour and analysis on? Please don't put it down to 'common sense', or such like.
 
No it does not...don't be ignorant.
An argument that finding yourself way outside your designated, and studied, landing site presents a significant degree of additional risk certainly has some validity. Did you think I was alluding to another aspect of P1K's argument?
 
Simple enough to answer SUSpilot.

.

A very credible scenario.

Ummm. No.

I have to catch SWA to Omaha in a few minutes, so I'll explain how real pilots really think when I get there. Southwind has it about 90% right, by the way.

Basically, you have it all wrong.
 
Simple enough to answer SUSpilot.

Say you are a LM pilot. You have studied the 200 X 200 square meter map of your targeted landing site for 6 months. Your mind operates ever so effectively, like nothing less than the map reading computer in a modern day cruise missile. You drill and drill and drill daily, practicing your landings, practicing touching down in that 200 X 200 meter patch of terrain. Your confidence level is to the moon.

Then, for reasons out of your control, at the time of the actually landing, at the time of truth's great moment, you are forced to begin your landing approach 20,000 feet west of the originally intended, originally targeted site. (This is exactly what was said to have happened to Armstrong in his Eagle, and Armstrong was drifting to the south as well.) This is no longer a drill and your life is very much on the line as is that of your colleague in the LM with you.

You now have no idea what you will find in terms of topographical detail, 4 miles downstream now of where you had almost been certain you would be. The autopilot carries you to an area strewn with 5 to 20 foot boulders and numerous irregularly shaped craters. Your rate of descent is not what you thought it would be, at least so your landing radar is telling you. Having overflown your originally targeted site, you are in a stronger local gravitational field than you or anyone had anticipated that you would find yourself in.

Nothing has gone as planned, and now you are trying to land this thing in a place where there simply is no room at all to touch down without impacting at least one fairly large boulder.

A very credible scenario.

Or let's say you're a cross-country sailplane pilot, as Armstrong was. Since a common end to a sailplane flight is an off-field landing, one of the skills required is reading terrain and making an on-the-fly plan to land in a place you may never have seen before. In a sailplane, you have one chance to get it right, and there is no abort button that will take you back up.
 
Of course a pilot would be prepared to deal with the unexpected. Indeed, it is the very reason a man like Neil Armstrong would be select for a genuine moon landing were such a feat actually within the capabilities of June and Ward Cleaver's America.

Armstrong was a former X-15 pilot, one of the best, if not the best. Surely he would be able to improvise.

But the point of course first of all is were this to have actually happened, would the story be told as it was? And the answer is an emphatic NO! Armstrong would have related an experience qualified by fear and uncertainty. He knew not what 00 41 15 north and 23 26 00 east would look like. Sure he was said to have studied maps, but had he studied in detail tens of millions of square meters worth of lunar landscape in all directions about the originally intended target site? Well indeed he did not. Of course he did not.

Furthermore, in the story as related by Armstrong himself, neither he nor Aldrin have the opportunity to observe in even a cursory fashion the topology which is passing beneath them. In Armstrong's own words, he is dealing with the clearing of alarms, and so doesn't even begin to notice where he is. As a matter of fact, this is the very reason he gives for not knowing where they landed.

And even under the best of circumstances, starting 20,000 feet downrange, without alarms going off, now heading for boulders instead of flats, flying a bird you'd never flown before, mascons feigning at you from this and that direction. Fuel supply limited. Well the whole story is preposterous, absurd, ridiculous, never happened, could not have possibly have ever happened.

This is why the astronauts appear as they do, not as Hilary and Norgay, but simply as nervous men. It is all quite tragic really now here at the end of their lives.

Once again Patrick, you are making a mistake that 95% of young/inexperienced actors make. You are projecting your actions/reactions on someone else who is a different person, with different experiences, & different training.

YOU would qualify the story with fear & uncertainty, thus you feel they would too. YOU would be all smiles & fun several days after the event so they should be too. (or you didn't realize it was several days after.... or you're ignoring that fact because it hurts your theory so badly.)

At any rate you fail again.
 
You miss the point!

To be fair, I think landing in a boulder field would rate the chances of success pretty slim, with an abort being the more sensible option. The thought of getting back outa there unscathed, if at all, would be pretty daunting, to say the least. Putting a plane or chopper down on an unknown runway, field, or even a highway fair enough.

That said, from what I've seen, they didn't exactly land in a boulder field, and the descent footage shows plenty of open spaces between sparsely separated craters that, to a trained astronaut, would be pretty much a routine day at the office, I'd say.

Whilst P1K's argument has some validity, the actual impact of his argument seems to be out by a factor similar to that on which he's seeking to depend for disputing a safe landing.

They were lucky it was NOT A BOULDER STREWN FIELD. So were this real, genuine astronauts would express genuine fear, relief, delight. Of course there were no boulders Southwind17, the thing is make believe. the point is were it real, there would have been incredible potential for anything, for danger, disaster, death. you never get a hint of the. It is all very fake indeed.
 
Simple enough to answer SUSpilot.

Say you are a LM pilot. You have studied the 200 X 200 square meter map of your targeted landing site for 6 months. Your mind operates ever so effectively, like nothing less than the map reading computer in a modern day cruise missile. You drill and drill and drill daily, practicing your landings, practicing touching down in that 200 X 200 meter patch of terrain. Your confidence level is to the moon.

Then, for reasons out of your control, at the time of the actually landing, at the time of truth's great moment, you are forced to begin your landing approach 20,000 feet west of the originally intended, originally targeted site. (This is exactly what was said to have happened to Armstrong in his Eagle, and Armstrong was drifting to the south as well.) This is no longer a drill and your life is very much on the line as is that of your colleague in the LM with you.

You now have no idea what you will find in terms of topographical detail, 4 miles downstream now of where you had almost been certain you would be. The autopilot carries you to an area strewn with 5 to 20 foot boulders and numerous irregularly shaped craters. Your rate of descent is not what you thought it would be, at least so your landing radar is telling you. Having overflown your originally targeted site, you are in a stronger local gravitational field than you or anyone had anticipated that you would find yourself in.
Nothing has gone as planned, and now you are trying to land this thing in a place where there simply is no room at all to touch down without impacting at least one fairly large boulder.

A very credible scenario.

What caused this gravity anomaly?
 
Jay Jay Jay as in Juliet!!!

What I would like to do now is create a schematic depicting Apollo 11 Mission Report Landing Site Coordinate data, and then go on to demonstrate how different these report results, this representation of Apollo events is from the H. David Reed account of events. In so doing, I will also be able to demonstrate great internal incoherence with regard to the presentation of landing site coordinate data and the landing's circumstances as provided within the body of the Apollo 11 Mission Report itself. This is yet another powerful way of demonstrating trajectory data/telemetry fraud, and thereby demonstrate all of the Apollo 11 Mission to be inauthentic.


Let's take a look at what has now become everyone's favorite map.



http://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a11/LAM2_CMP-flown.jpg


Each small square measures roughly 1.96 X 1.96 minutes of arc. Assuming the LRRR/Tranquility Base to be located at J .65/7.54 as we have done previously, then it can be shown the small square which contains that "best guess" which in the "real-time" world of the Apollo 11 Mission was J .5/7.7 , is bounded by 4 coordinates as below(North is top, South bottom, West to the left and East to the right);





The real-time best guess(BG) of J .5/ 7.7, the coordinates said to have been delivered to Collins just before the simulated lift off are as depicted in this schematic above, roughly half way to the J7-8 square's east from its dead center. Tranquility Base/LRRR would be just to the north west of BG as qualitatively represented above (TB).

And look now at this; the landing coordinates as determined by the powered flight processor/MSFN as they appear in the Apollo 11 Mission Report are 0.631 N and 23.47 E. We correct for the trajectory to map consideration and get 0.671 N and 23.40 E. Writing this in radians we get 00 40 17 north, and going through the same process for the east coordinate we get, 23 24 00 east. So the MSFN/Powered flight solution, a real-time Eagle landing coordinate solution, is in the very adjacent square(J6-7), the one just west of the square containing Tranquility Base. I have placed (PFP) in roughly what would be its location to the west of the Tranquility square. Only 0.64 miles or roughly 3380 feet separate (PFP) and (TB), the Powered Flight Processor and the LRRR at Tranquility Base.

The Apollo Guidance Computer's on board vector gave a real-time solution of 0.689 N and 23.39 E after correcting for trajectory to map considerations. This translates to 00 41 20 north and 23 23 24 east. I'll label that PNGS and place a representation of that coordinate solution in my schematic as well. The PNGS solution was/is a real-time solution and is only 0.75 miles distant from Tranquility Base. The PNGS and Powered flight solutions are only about 4 tenths of a mile or 2112 feet apart from one another.

Finally we have the Apollo 11 Mission Report's values for the real-time determination of the Abort Guidance System (AGS). Those numbers in the Mission Report are given as 0.639 N and 23.44 E. One corrects for trajectory to map considerations and converts to radians to get; 00 40 44 north and 23 22 12 east. So the AGS solution is the furthest away from Tranquility Base, but still very close at 1.13 miles to the southwest distant from Tranquility Base. And the PNGS and AGS solutions are only 0.423 miles distant or roughly 2233 feet from one another.

In celebration of my detractors' unflagging disgust and disgruntlement, I'd love to present my favorite H. David Reed quotations again, and so I shall !!!!!!!! Remember, according to Flight Director Glynn Lunney, Reed is the LEAD FIDO and was Mission Control's hand picked golden boy, the man who provided the Eagle's launch solution from the disoriented bird's simulated perch there at Tranquility Base Orlando. Here's my buddy Reed;

"After Apollo XI landed, as the World celebrated and sipped champagne, I slept in preparation for my shift prior to lunar launch. I would work with SELECT and DYNAMICS to get all the relative geometry down and work out the correct ignition time for return to the CSM.Piece of cake really. All we needed were landing site coordinates and a solid ephemeris on the CSM. I sat down at the console for that prelaunch shift and was debriefed by the previous team to complete hand-off. I probably had my second cup of coffee by then and got on the loop to SELECT to get the best landing site. I remember asking SELECT what he had for landing site coordinates. I’ll never forget his answer when he said, “take your pick FIDO!” I also remember not reacting too positively to his offer. He explained that we had five different sites. He said “we have MSFN(tracking radars), PNGS (primary LM guidance computer), AGS(backup LM guidance computer), the targeted landing site and, oh yes, the geologist have determined yet another site based upon the crew’s description of the landscape and correlating that with orbiter photos”. No two of these were even close to each other. It was the DYNAMICS computer controller, Pete Williams who catalyzed the solution. He said that if we only had rendezvous radar tracking data from the LM on the CSM we could work the problem backward. After all, we knew where the CSM was and the problem was a relative one between the CSM and the LM, not actually requiring latitude and longitude. To do this we would need to have the rendezvous radar (RR) turned on in the LM one revolution earlier than planned. Only two more passes of the CSM remained before Ascent ignition, before we had to have a solution to this problem! I remember taking my headset off and walking up to the Flight Director, Milt Windler to explain the situation. We only used that kind of face to face communication when we had a serious problem such as this. I detailed the problem as best we knew it and the process that we’d have to follow to get the data we needed, and why we had to start a rev early to finish the calculations and then find the critical lift-off time for lunar launch. I recall the CapCom instructing Buzz Aldrin that we needed him to perform the RR check early but I don’t believe that CapCom explained why, just another check was all. Shaft & trunnion angles were passed up to aid acquisition. Right on time as the CSM cleared the horizon we began seeing data. We counted the agonizing minutes as the telemetry came flowing in until the CSM was receding. Now we had the data we needed to run the problem (a rendezvous problem in reverse) and get the correct liftoff time*. And that’s what we used. Later we would find out just where were we on the surface. We were actually over 25,000 feet from the nearest of the other five choices we had! At 5,000-fps orbital velocity of the CSM that could have been up to a ten second error in liftoff. That would have meant we’d need a LOT of RCS (reaction control system fuel) to play catch up or slow down in a rather abnormal (I don’t recall train- ing for this one) rendezvous situation. I was assigned the descent phase for Apollo XII and I wasn’t about to go through that again."


Maurice Kennedy; Charles Deiterich III; William Stoval; William Boone III; Glynn S. Lunney; H. David Reed; Jerry C. Bostick (2011-05-13). From The Trench of Mission Control to the Craters of The Moon (ebook Locations 5634-5675).

Let's dig in and point out the contradictions. Reed says the powered flight solution, PNGS, AGS, maps and targeted site coordinates were not even close to one another. But those publishing the Apollo 11 Mission Report, would very much like us to believe differently. The PNGS and AGS solutions, as they appear in the Apollo 11 Mission Report, are a paltry 4 tenths of a mile distant, give or take. That's only a couple thousand feet and change. Like wise with the PNGS and powered flight solution values given in table 5-IV of the Apollo 11 Mission Report, 4 tenths of a mile apart more or less, that's it. They are practically right on top of one another. Everything is close, PNGS solution, AGS solution , powered flight solution, all very close to Tranquility Base. By the way, I am saving the map/photos and AOT solution discussions for later posts. And you guys thought the Great Wall of China was Long?! Back to business. The AGS solution is the furthest away at 1.13 miles and that's close enough, were they to have given those coordinates to the Lick Observatory Staff for the scientists there to have been able to successfully target the laser. If they aimed at the AGS solution coordinates, some of the light may have hit the LRRR 1.13 miles away assuming a beam width of 2 miles. If they aimed at the Powered flight solution, they would have hit the LRRR even with a ruby red laser beam only a mile across.

So Reed says the real-time solutions that were presented to him were way off from one another. The people writing the Mission Report would like to deceive us and have us believe David Reed saw entirely different numbers. David Reed says that once he solved for the LM/CSM relation and provided to the appropriate personal his launch solution, he realized the PNGS, AGS, Powered flight/MSFN and map/photographic solutions that had been available to him when he arrived at work were all at least 4 and a half miles distant from what proved to be Tranquility Base's coordinates/the LRRR coordinates(00 41 15 north , 23 26 00 east). AND! as mentioned, these various solutions, so distant from Tranquility Base, so distant from Reed's improvised rendezvous radar radar solution, a radar improvised solution only 1200 feet from Tranquility Base by my reckoning, were not in any way close to one another.

Reed says that all the real-time options available to him when he walked into work on the morning of 07/21/1969 were out of agreement with one another, and additionally, were far from Tranquility Base, no closer to the LRRR than 4 and a half miles. The Mission Report says on the other hand, at least as far as PNGS, AGS and powered flight solutions go, that each of these 3 important solutions gave values very close to one another, and not only that, all close to Tranquility Base itself, close to Reed's own improvised rendezvous radar solution.

One off the two sides here is making their side up. It cannot be otherwise. I have been consistent in my position, in my views. Reed has no reason to lie, NASA's reasons are as countless as the stars in the sky, stars that Neil would love one day to count, were he only able to see them. Alas, such tragic tragic irony, the first man on the moon, "star blind" no less. What is the story there anyway with not seeing stars Neil? Do you blast off and travel into cislunar space and turn into a World Wrestling Federation Referee? Become visually impaired by way of some bewitching vacuum black magic??? Frankly Blind? Does the vacuum of space somehow make your brain soft so stuff doesn't register?

This is all old. I didn't come all of this way to rehash, and so let's dig ever so much deeper my friends, shall we not?

The Apollo 11 Mission Report offers on pages 5-7 and 5-8;

"During the lunar surface stay, several unsuccessful attempts were made by the Command Module Pilot to locate the lunar module through the sextant using sighting coordinates transmitted from the ground. Estimates of the landing coordinates were obtained from the lunar module computer, the lunar surface gravity alignment of the platform, and the limited interpretation of the geological features during descent. Figure 5-14 shows 
the areas that were tracked and the times of closest approach that were used for the sightings. It can be seen that the actual landing site, as determined from films taken during the descent, did not lie near the center of the sextant field of view for any of the coordinates used; therefore, the ability to acquire the lunar module from a 60-mile orbit can neither be established nor denied. The Command Module Pilot reported it was possible to scan only one grid square during a single pass. Because of the unsuccessful attempts to sight the lunar module from the command module, the decision was made to track the command module from the lunar module using the rendezvous radar. The command module was acquired at a range of 79.9 miles and a closing rate of 3236 ft/sec, and loss of track occurred at 85.3 miles with a receding range-rate of 3531 ft/sec (fig. 5-15). The inertial measurement unit was successfully aligned two more times prior to lift-off, once to obtain a drift check and once to establish the proper inertial orientation for lift-off. The drift check indicated normal system operation, as discussed in section 9.6. An abort guidance system alignment was also performed prior to liftoff; however, a procedural error caused an azimuth misalignment which resulted in the out-of-plane velocity error discussed in section 9.6.2."

Let's take a look at the table referenced above 5-14;







So here are the "7 points", the 7 map referenced points that Collins was allegedly given as clues each time he made a simulated rev about the moon. Why are they feeding Collins these points as his sextant jump start positions? Coordinates with latitudes of P,N,M,E, and K? What in bloody all space-time get out does P,N,M,E,and K have to do with J? Yes JAY, JAY as in Juliet!!!! If the real-time solutions for the powered flight processor, AGS and PNGS are all located in Squares J/5, J/6, J/7. Why aren't they telling Collins to look there? At least ONCE! JAY!!! Real-time Jay! CapCom, tell Collins for God's sake! It is not as though everybody doesn't know the powered flight system was viewed as the most accurate/dependable of the systems. So they have real time solutions for PNGS, AGS and Powered Fight, all close to Tranquility Base. Furthermore, the three solutions all agree with one another. Yet, incredibly!, they are not passed along to Collins. Instead, he is told to look in the grid along latitudes P,M,N,E,K BUT!!! NEVER JAY!

What is going on? Well obviously, the real-time solutions as presented in the Mission Report were not genuinely "real-time" at the time of the actual pretended landing. One would assume from all of this that the PNGS, AGS and Powered flight solutions that we see in the Mission Report were made up "after the fact" to quote our glorious commander and favorite Not So Very Eagle Scout. During the pretended landing, someone, doesn't necessarily have to be him , but more likely than not it is Schiesser, is playing with all of this. Reed and the Flight Dynamics people are told AGS, PNGS, and powered flight solutions are in latitudes P,N,M,E,K, all over the bloody military map. Of course if you published that in the Apollo 11 Mission Report people would go, "What?!!!! I thought that powered flight system was pretty dang good for tracking, how did it see the Eagle way out there in latitude E?", or whatever. So then they publish this bogus doctored jive and pretend first of all that this actually happened, and secondly, that the solutions agreed with one another. Not only did they agree, but as a matter of fact, were downright close to Tranquility Base to begin with as any of the people close to the project, working within the project, but nevertheless duped, would have expected.

It's enough to make you scream, the jerks! But whether one gives in and screams or not, it is straightforward evidence of trajectory data/telemetry fraud, and shows/proves the entire Apollo 11 Mission to be fraudulent in consequence.

I'll look at this in all the more detail moving forward, and will take a look at the other coordinate solutions as well, AOT and maps/photos, in my later posts. This is a rich vein of deceit and merits much time, energy and attention.
 
Last edited:
They were lucky it was NOT A BOULDER STREWN FIELD. So were this real, genuine astronauts would express genuine fear, relief, delight. Of course there were no boulders Southwind17, the thing is make believe. the point is were it real, there would have been incredible potential for anything, for danger, disaster, death. you never get a hint of the. It is all very fake indeed.
I see - so now they were just lucky that there were no boulders, whereas before you claimed they were definitely heading for boulders ...
And even under the best of circumstances, starting 20,000 feet downrange, without alarms going off, now heading for boulders instead of flats, flying a bird you'd never flown before, mascons feigning at you from this and that direction.
So, P1K, given that you know so much about how a 'genuine astronaut' would have reacted, please refer us to evidence of a similar situation in which a 'genuine astronaut' reacted as you claim. Or is there no such thing as a 'genuine astronaut'?!

P1K, are you seriously suggesting that all documented human endeavours that entail 'potential for ... danger, disaster, death' are false? Would you like for me to list some such endeavours for you to nominate as real or falsified?
 
Furthermore, in the story as related by Aldrin have the opportunity to observe in even a cursory fashion the topology And even under the best of circumstances, starting 20,000 feet downrange, without alarms going off, now heading for boulders instead of flats, flying a bird you'd never flown before, mascons feigning at you from this and that direction. Fuel supply limited. Well the whole story is preposterous, absurd, ridiculous, never happened, could not have possibly have ever happened.

This is why the astronauts appear as they do, not as Hilary and Norgay, but simply as nervous men. It is all quite tragic really now here at the end of their lives.

"Mascons feigning at at you from this and that direction"...what a hoot you are, Pat...your "interpretations" are simply amazing!!
 
They were lucky it was NOT A BOULDER STREWN FIELD. So were this real, genuine astronauts would express genuine fear, relief, delight.

First, I have to agree with Redtail: you are projecting your reactions on to someone else. You don't know anything about how a pilot thinks and acts, particularly test pilots. I am not a test pilot, but I am a flight instructor, I've done a lot of flying, trained a lot of pilots (including test pilots in aircraft with which they were not familiar), and know several test pilots (including two Chief Test Pilots from McDonnell/McDonnell-Douglas/Boeing). I can assure you that "fear" is not the correct word for these people. That is not to say they are psychopathic in any way: in many ways, they are far more aware of their mortality than most other people. They have to be to successfully manage risk. The better word is "wary". They are constantly thinking, staying aware of ways out of a situation and generally always assessing options.

Now, this community is not perfect. Test pilots make mistakes, and things happen, so please don't prattle on about the pilots/astronauts that died in aviation accidents. The point I'm making is that Armstrong and Aldrin were very much in the risk-management business long before that phrase was coined, and that's why they were there in the first place.

That brings us to the current argument. I'd forgotten that Neil Armstrong was a sailplane pilot. It is certainly true that he would have been able to cope with selecting a good place to land. In fact, any good pilot can select good alternatives when landing an aircraft.

However, in this particular case, the analogy is more like that of a rotorcraft. EMS pilots routinely fly to places they've never seen, except maybe for passing over them, and selecting a good place to set down. Since the LM had good visibility down and forward, this would have been the same type of thing: pick a flat spot and land. In fact, Armstrong did indeed reject a poor spot in favor of doing just that.

I can tell you that there is no way that they would have rejected a landing that was well within their skills and the limits of the LM after so much effort had been put into getting them there.
 
The point is that everything becomes a hypothetical.

I see - so now they were just lucky that there were no boulders, whereas before you claimed they were definitely heading for boulders ...

So, P1K, given that you know so much about how a 'genuine astronaut' would have reacted, please refer us to evidence of a similar situation in which a 'genuine astronaut' reacted as you claim. Or is there no such thing as a 'genuine astronaut'?!

P1K, are you seriously suggesting that all documented human endevours that entail 'potential for ... danger, disaster, death' are false? Would you like for me to list some such endeavours for you to nominate as real or falsified?

I can make up a million scenarios. The point is, once a pilot drifts from that area, that domain, that patch of territory which he has studied and planned for, he may well be in trouble. This was the case with the story of the Eagle. It is not a true story, but the point applies.

Armstrong could have flown that bogus bird into a field of cheering playboy bunnies for all he knew once they went off course.

He expresses no concern, conveys no sense there may have been difficulties, but fortunately there were not. He acts as though nothing is a big deal. There is no element of genuine content, drama, adventure in his recounting of events. He is nervous. He is measured, too mesured. He is not a real astronaut.

And I am as sorry as anyone for this, but won't pretend otherwise.
 
Last edited:
I don't deny one such as Armstrong might land the bird....

First, I have to agree with Redtail: you are projecting your reactions on to someone else. You don't know anything about how a pilot thinks and acts, particularly test pilots. I am not a test pilot, but I am a flight instructor, I've done a lot of flying, trained a lot of pilots (including test pilots in aircraft with which they were not familiar), and know several test pilots (including two Chief Test Pilots from McDonnell/McDonnell-Douglas/Boeing). I can assure you that "fear" is not the correct word for these people. That is not to say they are psychopathic in any way: in many ways, they are far more aware of their mortality than most other people. They have to be to successfully manage risk. The better word is "wary". They are constantly thinking, staying aware of ways out of a situation and generally always assessing options.

Now, this community is not perfect. Test pilots make mistakes, and things happen, so please don't prattle on about the pilots/astronauts that died in aviation accidents. The point I'm making is that Armstrong and Aldrin were very much in the risk-management business long before that phrase was coined, and that's why they were there in the first place.

That brings us to the current argument. I'd forgotten that Neil Armstrong was a sailplane pilot. It is certainly true that he would have been able to cope with selecting a good place to land. In fact, any good pilot can select good alternatives when landing an aircraft.

However, in this particular case, the analogy is more like that of a rotorcraft. EMS pilots routinely fly to places they've never seen, except maybe for passing over them, and selecting a good place to set down. Since the LM had good visibility down and forward, this would have been the same type of thing: pick a flat spot and land. In fact, Armstrong did indeed reject a poor spot in favor of doing just that.

I can tell you that there is no way that they would have rejected a landing that was well within their skills and the limits of the LM after so much effort had been put into getting them there.

I don't deny one such as Armstrong might land the bird, it is just it becomes very dicey at that point, 20,000 feet west of where they want to be and this is for starters. Armstrong has never flown the Eagle before. There were no greatly detailed maps in existence at the time where people could look and say, "Well here they go, over this area, and it has such and such features". It is all unknown to a very significant degree. What about mascon effects there? What if they had been 10,000 feet down range instead of 20,000?, or 100,000 instead of 20,000? At 5,000 feet per second, they can go way off course in a hurry.

This is make believe SUSpilot, wake up and smell the TANG!
 
Last edited:
Pick a flat spot and land. How hard is that?

Oh, I like French roast coffee and pulpy orange juice. For what it's worth.
 
You miss the point, there may not be a flat spot.

Pick a flat spot and land. How hard is that?

Oh, I like French roast coffee and pulpy orange juice. For what it's worth.

You miss the point, there may not have been a flat spot, and if there was, Armstrong would then have expressed great genuine relief that there was. That is, were any of this real.

Getting it now SUSpilot? Pretty dang devious, ain't they not?
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom