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Merged Apollo "hoax" discussion / Lick observatory laser saga

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You are hardly telling me anything mate.

An interesting turn of phrase, and as uncommon among speakers of American English as the plural construct "maths" which he/they/it have also used on occasion.

P1K is as full of crap as the bread bag in my neighbor's trash can. :cool:
 
Armstrong practiced flying the Lunar Landing Research Vehicle which simulated flying the LM in Moon gravity.
I think you might misunderstand me slightly matt. Unless I'm mistaken, the LM couldn't be manoeuvred during descent in the sense that a helicopter can, i.e. hover. Was there not a limited amount of manoeuvreability available within the constraints of a committed descent? If so, to have to select a suitable spot within a general terrain of major craters, boulders, slopes and hills, and within, presumably, an essentially pre-set time limit commencing from a point where the surface conditions are sufficiently discernible with the naked eye (which would be at what altitiude, roughly, 25m at best, say?) seems somewhat risky to me, to say the least. Actually, how, exactly, did they observe the surface conditions immediately beneath the LM during the final few metres of descent?
 
...Jeez - I have to say, again as a novice(!), based on this transcription I can't help concluding that the LM landing was a massively high risk proposition. How on earth (or should a say 'moon'!) did they all get themselves comfortable with the seemingly less-than-remote possibility of catastrophic consequences of encountering an obstacle or highly unfavourable terrain?!

Good question.

First, nobody was "comfortable" with it. The mission was risky. Epic journeys usually are. The only way to avoid the risk was to decline the challenge of going in the first place.

However, the risk could be, and was, minimized in a variety of ways.

The landing site was imaged by Earthbound and orbiting instruments. The lunar surface and environment were characterized by robotic probes, both soft landers (Surveyor) and impactors (Ranger). The general space environment, including the behavior of the Sun, was studied by dozens of probes and a wide assortment of ground-based instruments.

The technology was made as robust and reliable as possible. The LM power and propulsion systems were kept simple - avoiding fancy fuel cells and pumps. There was a completely separate Abort Guidance System computer which could bring the LM crew back to the CSM at just about any point- their equivalent of a "zero-zero" ejection seat. You get the idea.

Everything was tested extensively, at the component, subsystem, and system level. I've participated in thermal/vacuum spacecraft tests in Chamber B at JSC, where the LM was tested, right next to the mammoth Chamber A where the CSM stack was tested. Then the vehicles were tested in flight - in Earth orbit, in lunar orbit, and a final descent and ascent profile of the LM on Apollo 10. Apollo 11 can be regarded as the final Apollo test flight. It had one primary objective: to land men on the Moon and return.

The crews received an enormous amount of multimodal training, including flying dynamics simulators like the LLRV/LLTV and a variety of systems and visual trainers which simulated the look of the approach in various ways.

The final and most important element was that of the men flying the mission. Like most of the pre-Skylab astronauts, all three were experienced military pilots. Collins was a test pilot. The LM crew in particular might be equalled, but not exceeded, in its qualifications. Both Armstrong and Aldrin were jet combat veterans. Armstrong was a test pilot who had flown the X-15, and Aldrin held a PhD in astronautics. Both had flown on Gemini. They had the skill, the experience, the nerve, and the training for the job, including the ability to recognize and react to any imaginable contingency, modifying the landing as necessary (and as actually happened).

For all this, though, the result of on the order of a million man-years of effort from some four hundred thousand participants, what was accepted was that the endeavor was still a risk. That is why President Nixon had ready, in addition to a triumphal celebratory speech, a much shorter somber one for use if they had perished in the attempt.
 
Totally off-topic curiosity:

A slang term common among American military (at least in the mid to late 80's) to refer to UK males was "blokes." Do you know if there is a similar term used by US military in Australia to denote Australians?

thnks. :)
 
I think you might misunderstand me slightly matt. Unless I'm mistaken, the LM couldn't be manoeuvred during descent in the sense that a helicopter can, i.e. hover.

It did maneuver like a helicopter. The Reaction Control System could translate the LM left, right, forward, backwards, up and down, as well as rotate it in along any axis. Rotating away from the perpendicular would cause the LM to move in that direction.

Was there not a limited amount of manoeuvreability available within the constraints of a committed descent?
If I recall correctly, there was 2 minutes of fuel budgeted into the plan to allow the LM to avoid rocks and craters.

If so, to have to select a suitable spot within a general terrain of major craters, boulders, slopes and hills, and within, presumably, an essentially pre-set time limit commencing from a point where the surface conditions are sufficiently discernible with the naked eye (which would be at what altitiude, roughly, 25m at best, say?)
"Pitchover", when the LM would rotate forward in preparation for final descent, happened at a few thousand feet.

seems somewhat risky to me, to say the least. Actually, how, exactly, did they observe the surface conditions immediately beneath the LM during the final few metres of descent?
By knowing what was underneath them before they got there. They used the "LPD", or Landing Point Designator, for that.

lpdin.jpg


When you listen to the audio in the landing videos you hear the Lunar Module Pilot (LMP) calling out data, for a random example: "500 feet, 10 forward, 8 down, 42"

The number without a unit, in this case "42", referred to the LPD. The guidance system computed, based on the distance to the landing site, altitude, and pitch of the LM what the angle was to the landing site referenced to the etchings on the Commander's window. The Commander could then identify the landing site the guidance system was aiming for and he could use one of his hand controllers to adjust his landing site closer or farther, or left or right. This is how Armstrong knew the guidance computer was going to land them in the middle of a big boulder field. He adjusted the landing site before manually taking control of the LM for the final phase of the landing.
 
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What, are you supposed to be telling me something SUSpilot? I came up with 1200 feet, distance between Reed's rendezvous radar solution and 00 41 15 north and 23 26 00 east a million years ago. Well, perhaps that is a bit of an exaggeration, 2000 posts ago anyway.
Actually, it's not poor reading comprehension. It's the fact that I discount 99.99% of what you say, so it never really registered. Also, since I know the landings occurred as a historical fact, I wanted to see for myself what the numbers would be. Quite frankly, I'm impressed that the radar-derived position error was only 1,200 feet from the actual position.

My real point is that it all worked. Every bit of it. It's clear to anyone with any critical thinking skills whatsoever that to back into some sort of conspiracy to fake the missions would be so complicated, expensive, and so fragile that it would be easier to just go.

Honestly, you remind me of those that believe in Ptolemaic model of the Solar System: there is no desire to accept the evidence, layering complication upon complication to keep the theory alive.
 
It's not a question of fuel margins, only a question of when to lift-off and/or how long to stay in the Constant Delta Height orbit, as described in my haiku above. After lift-off the Ascent Module would circularize its orbit to 24 km below the CSM. At that height difference the Ascent Module would gain on the CSM at 10 meters per second.

The Apollo Flight Journal has an excellent article about Lunar Orbit Rendezvous, the method chosen by NASA for the Lunar mission: http://history.nasa.gov/afj/loressay.htm
Whoops. I should have remembered that. What got me hung up was Reed's comment regarding the consumption of maneuvering fuel if they were off by the full 25,000 feet. At the risk of sounding as obtuse as our favorite hoaxer here, what drove his concern? Thanks in advance.
 
what drove his concern?


Dramatic license.

Being off by 5 miles was no big deal. Even if it was all out of plane error it would not be a big deal. After obtaining orbit and burning into the Constant Delta Height orbit the LM tracked the CSM on radar and when the parameters were appropriate the LM did another burn to climb to the CSM's altitude for final rendezvous and docking.

The delta v required to reach orbit was 1853 m/s. If they had to correct for an out of plane error that would require a 100 m/s delta v it would have been combined with the ascent delta v using Pythagoras's Theorem: [18532 + 1002].5 = 1855.7. So only an additional delta v of 2.7 m/s could correct for a needed 100 m/s correction if done during the ascent.
 
The delta v required to reach orbit was 1853 m/s. If they had to correct for an out of plane error that would require a 100 m/s delta v it would have been combined with the ascent delta v using Pythagoras's Theorem: [18532 + 1002].5 = 1855.7. So only an additional delta v of 2.7 m/s could correct for a needed 100 m/s correction if done during the ascent.
Please excuse my ignorance, but why do you guys talk about 'delta v'? Is that the same as simple 'velocity', or different in some way? Are you sure you're right using trigonometry to address speed? I'm struggling to see how your resultant 1855.7m/s ascent velocity translates to correcting a delta plane error. Can you elaborate on that for me please?
 
Please excuse my ignorance, but why do you guys talk about 'delta v'? Is that the same as simple 'velocity', or different in some way? Are you sure you're right using trigonometry to address speed? I'm struggling to see how your resultant 1855.7m/s ascent velocity translates to correcting a delta plane error. Can you elaborate on that for me please?


"Delta v" is "delta velocity", i.e. change in velocity.

Certain maneuvers can be combined. If you need to accelerate to raise your orbital altitude and you need to adjust your orbital inclination (the "out of plane" maneuver in my previous post; i.e. the angle your orbit makes to the equator) you can do both maneuvers individually, or if you time it right and the situation allows it, you can combine them into a single acceleration which would use less fuel than if you did them individually.

Say you want to accelerate along your orbit path by 50 m/s to raise the apogee and you want to change your orbital inclination a certain amount that requires a velocity change of 100 m/s perpendicular to the orbital path. If you do them individually it would require a delta v of 150 m/s. If you could combine them into one maneuver it would only require a delta v of [1002 + 502].5 = 112 m/s. This requires pointing the nozzle in the correct direction to get the velocity vectors right but that is easily solved with a little more trig.

If this isn't clear let me know and I'll try again.
 
You know, thanks to all the knowledgeable posters here. Despite the trolling posters there are still some nice "E in JREF" posts happening.
 
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Unless I'm mistaken, the LM couldn't be manoeuvred during descent in the sense that a helicopter can, i.e. hover.
No, it could be hovered. They landed in P66. This allowed them to increase / decrease / null the vertical descent rate, as well control the horizontal movement of the LM by use of the hand controller.

Was there not a limited amount of manoeuvreability available within the constraints of a committed descent?
Manoeuvrability was limited in the respect that P66 would not allow them to go to a non-recoverable attitude.

If so, to have to select a suitable spot within a general terrain of major craters, boulders, slopes and hills, and within, presumably, an essentially pre-set time limit commencing from a point where the surface conditions are sufficiently discernible with the naked eye (which would be at what altitiude, roughly, 25m at best, say?) seems somewhat risky to me, to say the least. Actually, how, exactly, did they observe the surface conditions immediately beneath the LM during the final few metres of descent?

Armstrong was able to see the planned landing site through the LPD - the Landing Point Designator, which was updated constantly to him by Aldrin. As soon as Armstrong saw that the planned landing zone had boulders, he stopped the vertical descent and increased the forward velocity to take them clear of the obstructions.

The LPD would continually update during this, so Armstrong could see where he could land safely.

Once he was satisfied, he started to go back to a landing profile. He didn't need to see directly underneath the LM during the terminal stages of touchdown because he had already cleared the area visually during the descent. In fact, almost all LMs landing with some slight forward vertical component.
 
Credit where it's due, that's quite a nice catch there by Patrick. OK it's nothing to do with "Juliet", but NASA were indeed using Julian dates as far back as 1968.

I only hope that, if he really does read as much of this documentation as he claims, then it will eventually become obvious to him (if it hasn't already) that Apollo was completely real.

Half a catch. He called RA and DEC a "pair of julian numbers", a nonsense phrase.

Using a keyboard
does not make your computer
a keyboard system

it is very clear
reading not understanding
will catch you every time
 
Sister Mary's still waiting SUSpilot

Actually, it's not poor reading comprehension. It's the fact that I discount 99.99% of what you say, so it never really registered. Also, since I know the landings occurred as a historical fact, I wanted to see for myself what the numbers would be. Quite frankly, I'm impressed that the radar-derived position error was only 1,200 feet from the actual position.

My real point is that it all worked. Every bit of it. It's clear to anyone with any critical thinking skills whatsoever that to back into some sort of conspiracy to fake the missions would be so complicated, expensive, and so fragile that it would be easier to just go.

Honestly, you remind me of those that believe in Ptolemaic model of the Solar System: there is no desire to accept the evidence, layering complication upon complication to keep the theory alive.

We haven't got your homework yet SUSpilot.

Wonder what else I have been writing about that is important and true, but simply hasn't registered. Hmmmmmmmm!

So that would mean Reed was/is correct about the other 5 solution options; PNGS, AGS, MSFN, maps, targeted. All of them no closer than 4 and a half miles from the "landing site". Do you agree with that as well SUSpilot, or would the lead FIDO be incorrect with respect to that important fact?
 
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Has anyone here got the "trench " book? I suspect that what it actually says is different from what Patrick thinks it said, just going on past experience.
 
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