"Mass casualties" at crash at Nevada airshow

[Huttosaurus]

Does discrimination only work one way? I'd have to say just about every 15 year old I've met has had better reflexes and eye sight than just about every 80 year old I've met. I have to agree with people who have observed that 74 or 80 is a little too old to be flying in air shows like this.

The guy died so there's an immediate response of "He's a hero, he did what he could and saved lives" but you really have to wonder if a younger pilot might have avoided the accident altogether. Experience counts for something, but as far as I know there's a mandatory retirement age even in the Air Force. I think experience only counts for so much if you just don't have the reflexes and mental acuity to operate a plane at 500 mph.

Topic for another thread perhaps.

If what actually happened is determined to be the same as my (and many others) hunch about what happened, it wouldn't have mattered how old the guy was. As I said earlier, regardless of age he would have needed a vaild medical certificate for the kind of flying he was doing.

 

[Foolmewunz]

quick lets make some laws!
Quick, ban something!

The totaltitarian kneejerk element around here never fails to amuse

That's it! You take a stand for what's right, Pipeline! Don't let these control freak big government fanatics bully us!

Only maybe you could find an appropriate thread to put that post in. You see, there were no calls for regulations or banning in any of the 35 posts in the thread prior to yours.

Someone's doing kneejerk reaction. That much is clear.

ETA: Sorry - watching Rugby and reading threads... did not realize several posters had already tackled this (as I did not realize there were two more pages) and stated precisely what I was stating above. I'm only not deleting it because it's been here for about ten minutes and others have probably read it already. Sorry for the derail, if that's what it is.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

In fairness to Pipeline, the news media has started their all too predictable 'questioning' of air shows.

 

[paiute]

P-51 Mustang.

A 'car race' in the sky? Didn't know they even had those?

I was there one year ago, maybe 20 yards from where it crashed.

 

[paiute]

I think they all produce those trails at airshows, it's part of the show.

Stop posting out your posterior. This was a race, not a show. The Reno Air Races do have some static displays and some stunt flying in between heats, but they are primarily air races.

 

[paiute]

At least he died doing what he loved. Killing rednecks

The crowd at the Reno Air Races is not the same crowd you find at a NASCAR event.

 

[paiute]

Amazingly, the photo here puts the lie to the insistence that "The plane crashed into the front row of spectators"
Looks like the runway to me...

In front of the grandstand bleachers are box seats, areas of the tarmac level with and actually part of the runway which are divided up into squares containing tables and chairs.

 

[paiute]

I've seen no changes in the Chicago air show, they still fly over the city and between buildings.

The FAA has strict rules about where aircraft can fly over the crowds at air shows.

 

[slingblade]

In fairness to Pipeline, the news media has started their all too predictable 'questioning' of air shows.

I thought he said we were doing it?


We're not the media, and I won't be held responsible for what the media chooses to do. If that's what he meant, then he shouldn't have pointed to two of the posts in this thread as his "proof." He should have said "media," and he should have pointed to them.

To be fair, he accused people here. And he was wrong.

 

[slingblade]

Now then.

It doesn't appear to have crashed into a row of seats themselves. It appears to have crashed right in front of them, and so close to them that the difference probably wouldn't have been all that apparent to the people who died there.


(click on it to make it bigger, and see it more clearly.)

 

[BobTheDonkey]

The FAA has strict rules about where aircraft can fly over the crowds at air shows.

The problem is that even a 1 mile distance between the turn and the stands isn't all that far when the aircraft is traveling at approx 400mph...

 

[FattyCatty]

The AAFO Hanger Talk forum has a sub-forum on the Reno accident.

And here's the NTSB Press Briefing, Reno Nevada September 17, 2011 6 PM on YouTube. From 2:32:

And what is planned for tomorrow? So the activities for the second full day of investigation include completing documentation of the wreckage site and then begin recovery of parts, which will then be transferred to a secure location offsite for detailed analysis.

ETA: The impact crater (approximately 3-feet deep) is on tarmac, according to the video.

 

[JihadJane]

.
The plane did a rapid roll to the right and went in vertically just after getting on the main straight..
There is no pilot visible in the cockpit moments before impact.
Typically, all that is seen is his head...

Dropped his glasses?

 

[paiute]

The problem is that even a 1 mile distance between the turn and the stands isn't all that far when the aircraft is traveling at approx 400mph...

That's true. So to be totally safe, we can either increase the distance from crowd to pylon to about 20 miles or ban air races and air shows altogether. Then we can do something about those airliners that come in low over my town on their way to the airport.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_56044e7576cd3f36c.jpg[/qimg]


Now then.

It doesn't appear to have crashed into a row of seats themselves. It appears to have crashed right in front of them, and so close to them that the difference probably wouldn't have been all that apparent to the people who died there.


(click on it to make it bigger, and see it more clearly.)

Which is why I'm glad I said this earlier after debating rwguinn about it:

... I take back my quibble with you rwguinn. I think the crash was into the first row of box seats and definitely the debris took out the row, but the impact center could be just in front of the seats. In other words, it depends on how wide you consider the impact area. Definitely the first row of chairs in the boxes are all knocked over and there are bloody people visible and on the ground in the videos. But the nose of the plane could have hit in front of and maybe not directly into the people....

[off topic] BTW, the third guy back on the "Further" bus was my roommate for a while when I was in college. That was long after "The Electric Kool-Aide Acid Test". Did you post that picture in a different thread? [/off topic]

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

That's true. So to be totally safe, we can either increase the distance from crowd to pylon to about 20 miles or ban air races and air shows altogether. Then we can do something about those airliners that come in low over my town on their way to the airport.

And of course no one calls for an end to commercial air travel after the cases of commercial jets crashing in to neighborhoods.

It seems to me after learning more about the air races from this accident that adequate precautions were being taken.

 

[rwguinn]

And of course no one calls for an end to commercial air travel after the cases of commercial jets crashing in to neighborhoods.

It seems to me after learning more about the air races from this accident that adequate precautions were being taken.

Correct. Stuff happens.
Man (and mankind) is fallible. Machines are made by man, and are thus also fallible.
Put man in machine, and the chance for stuff happening goes up.
From the FAA FAQ's, he had to recertify his medical certificate at least every year (I don't know if he held the Air Transport License--in which case it would be every 6 months).
We cannot make everything perfectly safe.

 

[slingblade]

Which is why I'm glad I said this earlier after debating rwguinn about it:

Yup, exactly. I wasn't, BTW, trying to prove you or anyone wrong. Please don't take it that way. I found that pic, and I knew people were trying to figure out the point of impact, and it seemed to show it the best.

Most of the rest of the images and video didn't have a very good angle or line of sight at all, and it was really hard to tell.

[off topic] BTW, the third guy back on the "Further" bus was my roommate for a while when I was in college. That was long after "The Electric Kool-Aide Acid Test". Did you post that picture in a different thread? [/off topic]

[ot reply] Heh, you saw that Further image, huh? I love that bus. Last I heard, it was rotting in some apple orchard in Oregon. That is too terribly cool that you know or knew one of the folks in that pic.

Yes, I posted it in a thread of MikeyX's, regarding "dirty hippies." [/ot reply]

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Yup, exactly. I wasn't, BTW, trying to prove you or anyone wrong. Please don't take it that way. ...

I didn't. I appreciated the image you posted.

[ot reply] Heh, you saw that Further image, huh? I love that bus. Last I heard, it was rotting in some apple orchard in Oregon. That is too terribly cool that you know or knew one of the folks in that pic.

Yes, I posted it in a thread of MikeyX's, regarding "dirty hippies." [/ot reply]

Last time I saw it, "Further" was indeed rusting away on Ken Kesey's 'farm' (not really much of a farm, rather he turned a huge beautiful barn into a house) just outside of Eugene, OR. I'll have to revisit that thread, but I had ignored it because it was silly.

Sorry, back to the topic.

 

[I Ratant]

Does discrimination only work one way? I'd have to say just about every 15 year old I've met has had better reflexes and eye sight than just about every 80 year old I've met. I have to agree with people who have observed that 74 or 80 is a little too old to be flying in air shows like this.

The guy died so there's an immediate response of "He's a hero, he did what he could and saved lives" but you really have to wonder if a younger pilot might have avoided the accident altogether. Experience counts for something, but as far as I know there's a mandatory retirement age even in the Air Force. I think experience only counts for so much if you just don't have the reflexes and mental acuity to operate a plane at 500 mph.

Topic for another thread perhaps.

.
The pilot did nothing after the initial pullup. He was unconscious.
The survivors of similar incidents were unconscious also due to the severity of the g-load, but went up instead of rolling, giving them time to recover.