Merged Apollo "hoax" discussion / Lick observatory laser saga

[Jack by the hedge]

Thanks for posting some actual evidence, drewid. It suggests that maybe the doctors weren't in fact incompetents who just threw up their hands and said "Can't be done".

It also illustrates how very stupid Patrick sounds when he warns us that letting astronauts poop in a bag exposed the others "to the risk of infection with Salmonella, Shigella, Camplobacter, Yersinia, Giardia, Cryptosporidium, C. difficile, and hepatitis viruses". He seems to ignore the simple fact that the crew would have had to be infected with these before the mission lifted off, and of course they were confined and closely monitored before the mission to prevent any such infection.

 

[CptColumbo]

In the books I've read on the subject of Apollo 8, the subject of Borman's illness is quite interesting. The chief concern was that the various liquids that were in the air would damage the intruments. So they had to chase the fecal matter and vomit around the cabin with paper towells. Unfortunately, they did have to live with the smell as they couldn't open the window and let in fresh air. The recovery team almost became ill when they opened the hatch and the smell hit them.

In the case of an illness, it is up to the flight director to determine if they can proceed with the mission. If a part of the mission needs to be scrubed they will see if there is something else that can be done, so the mission isn't a complete waste. If a landing on the moon is scrubed, due to illness, they may still have them go into lunar orbit and test the systems of the LM for future missions.

 

[Patrick1000]

Obviously Borman was not closely monitored enough to prevent infection

Thanks for posting some actual evidence, drewid. It suggests that maybe the doctors weren't in fact incompetents who just threw up their hands and said "Can't be done".

It also illustrates how very stupid Patrick sounds when he warns us that letting astronauts poop in a bag exposed the others "to the risk of infection with Salmonella, Shigella, Camplobacter, Yersinia, Giardia, Cryptosporidium, C. difficile, and hepatitis viruses". He seems to ignore the simple fact that the crew would have had to be infected with these before the mission lifted off, and of course they were confined and closely monitored before the mission to prevent any such infection.

OBVIOUSLY BORMAN WAS NOT CLOSELY MONITORED ENOUGH TO PREVENT INFECTION(even if it was a pretend infection)

If NASA personal could not prevent Borman from acquiring viral gastroenteritis Jack by the Hedge, how would they prevent him from acquiring one of the other bugs transmissible in their real or pretend world?

You prevent these illnesses by way of sanitation, good hygiene. This is the whole point Jack by the hedge.

For those interested, there is variability among that which is reported with regard to the relevant numbers, but a few good rules of thumb for those interested in incubation period times;

1) Salmonella, 1/2 to 2 days

2) Camplobacter, 2-5 days

3) Shigella, 2-4 days

4) Giardia, 1-3 weeks

5) viral gastroenteritis, 12-48 hours

You are not a medical person Jack by the hedge, so I know you will not be offended when I tell you that you are missing my very point and thereby stepping right into it.

One cannot prevent these illnesses by placing astronauts in protective custody before a launch. It is all about hygiene, basic sanitation. If Borman really had viral gastroenteritis, he contracted it from a food worker, or off the surface of table there at NASA. The bugs are everywhere, the world is very much not a sterile place.

That said, you do not need to go looking for this stuff. One does not need to go and try and get oneself infected, especially if one is an astronaut, which is exactly what one would be doing, climbing aboard Apollo 8 and breathing Borman's crud, touching things and then swallowing. These guys are walking into a set up for a bad infection and there is no need for it. NASA could have figured out what to do. Obviously they have. Saying there is no room in the command module is not rationale. The place is not safe.

A person preparing Borman's food could be completely asymptomatic and not a good hand washer, or even be a good hand washer. Even very good hand washing cannot guarantee that a bug won't be transferred to another individual and cause a serious illness in him or her. Whether a good or bad hand washer, having touched Borman's salad, the food worker in so doing, passes our fearless commander the Salmonella a day before lift off. It incubates a day in him and makes him sick. One could say the same for a virus causing viral gastroenteritis, or Giardia he picked up somewhere 2 weeks before lift off.

Basic sanitation, basic hygiene is our first, and by far, most important line of defense against infection of all types. Once a bug "gets by that", it is on our skin, in our lungs, in our gi tract, in our blood and then up to our integument or immune system to help. Now Houston, even if their astronauts are immunocompetent, has a very very very big problem.

An Apollo ship has zero hygiene, zero sanitation with regard to the fecal material issue. Well almost zero. So for a bug that is highly contagious and once acquired makes you sick, as is the case with viral gastroenteritis, astronaut infections would be almost automatic in such an environment, an Apollo environment.

We may confidently conclude this is not a real environment......

Diagnosis; fake mission

 

[SUSpilot]

Have not looked at Gemini in any detail yet. Will comment further when I have done so.

Very brief summary: 14 day endurance mission in a vehicle that has been described as having the interior volume of a VW Beetle (the original, not the ones you kids see in SFO today).

So what would a physician say about that ca. 1965? Would they have tried to prevent the mission?

BTW, I just watched Miracle again the other day. It's about the 1980 US Olympic hockey team's victory over the Soviets. One of the prominent characters was the team doctor. Do you realize, that by your line of reasoning, he was duty bound to do everything he could to prevent the team from playing because of the violence of the sport? In fact, to extend your vision further, hockey, soccer (football), football (North American), rugby, etc., are all faked in these modern times because the physicians of the world, in thes modern times, simply wouldn't allow the games to occur.

Or, kids, is it just possible that reasonable people do reasonable things to mitigate risks in a reasonable way?

 

[drewid]

Apollo doctors have it covered, whodathunk?

Microbiology
The Apollo microbiology program includes the disciplines of bacteriology,
mycology, virology, parasitology, and protozo6logy. The prime objective of the program is the qualitative and quantitative definition of the "normal (preflight) and space-flight adjusted" (postflight) microbiota of each crewmember. Swab samples from eight body areas and specimens of urine, feces, and a throat-mouth gargle are collected from each astronaut at intervals of launch date minus 30 days (F-30), F-14, F-0 (8 hours prior to lift-off), and immediately upon return. Results of comprehensive microbiological analyses of such specimens are used to (1) permit early recognition and treatment of infectious diseases or potential problems during the preflightphase, (2) predict the possible qualitative contamination of returned lunar samples and lessen the impact of such contaminantson procedures for bioassay and release of lunarsamples from quarantine, (3) determine the aggregate effects of spacecraft environmental parameters on the microbiota of each crewmember, and (4) ascribe specificetiologies to illness events.

And had a certain amount of power where Mission go-ahead was concerned.

The Apollo 9 mission was delayed because of the preflight develop-ment of the rhinitis and pharyngitis in one crewmember.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

OBVIOUSLY BORMAN WAS NOT CLOSELY MONITORED ENOUGH TO PREVENT INFECTION(even if it was a pretend infection)

If NASA personal could not prevent Borman from acquiring viral gastroenteritis Jack by the Hedge, how would they prevent him from acquiring one of the other bugs transmissible in their real or pretend world?

Borman did not have viral gastroenteritis. Just because you keep pulling these ideas out of your butt does not mean you infect us all with stupidity.

 

[Patrick1000]

You Miss the Point SusPilot, GOOD SANITATION IS NOT OPTIONAL HERE !!!

Very brief summary: 14 day endurance mission in a vehicle that has been described as having the interior volume of a VW Beetle (the original, not the ones you kids see in SFO today).

So what would a physician say about that ca. 1965? Would they have tried to prevent the mission?

BTW, I just watched Miracle again the other day. It's about the 1980 US Olympic hockey team's victory over the Soviets. One of the prominent characters was the team doctor. Do you realize, that by your line of reasoning, he was duty bound to do everything he could to prevent the team from playing because of the violence of the sport? In fact, to extend your vision further, hockey, soccer (football), football (North American), rugby, etc., are all faked in these modern times because the physicians of the world, in thes modern times, simply wouldn't allow the games to occur.

Or, kids, is it just possible that reasonable people do reasonable things to mitigate risks in a reasonable way?

You Miss the Point SusPilot, GOOD SANITATION IS NOT OPTIONAL HERE !!!This is about basic hygiene, not just in space, but anywhere. This is common sense and it is quite obviously not being exercised.

Sanitation is all the more important in space with the astronauts because the potential problems can so very easily become magnified given the special circumstances and associated risks.

One does not choose to KNOWINGLY! send astronauts into an environment right before a lunar landing in which there is a very reasonable chance that astronaut will innoculate himself or herself with a pathogen by way of breathing in infected material from the zero G cabin "air", or by way of hand to mouth(fecal-oral) self innoculation.

This is not "rocket science". This is hand washing 101. These cannot posibly be , cannot in any conceivable world be real events. They are scripted, pretend events...

Diagnosis; fake mission

 

[Loss Leader]

How many times will Patrick imply that the flight surgeons settled on a diagnosis of gastroenteritis before someone calls him out on it?

He's done it several times on this page already.

Long, long ago, I mentioned that space sickness was already well-known by the Apollo 8 flight. I don't feel like repeating all that information.

 

[Patrick1000]

Space sickness is not associated with diarrhea!!!!!!!

Long, long ago, I mentioned that space sickness was already well-known by the Apollo 8 flight. I don't feel like repeating all that information.

SPACE SICKNESS IS NOT ASSOCIATED WITH DIARRHEA! AND, Borman's doctor says he has an infection! AND, Borman takes a Secanol pill a second time, the same pill he thinks gave him diarrhea IN THE FIRST PLACE AND PUT THE WHOLE MISSION AT RISK!

Diagnosis; fake mission!!!

 

[abaddon]

At this point we have had urination, defacation, and farting used by P1K.

These are childhood obsessions. Most children go through a phase of fascination with such bodily functions.

 

[Garrison]

You prevent these illnesses by way of sanitation, good hygiene. This is the whole point Jack by the hedge.

Yes on Earth before the mission launched to make sure the crew weren't carrying such infections, after launch where exactly would there be a fresh source of exposure? It really isn't that hard to understand, there were procedures in places, and if those procedures weren't 100 perfect well that was just one more risk NASA and the astronauts were willing to face to get to the moon.

Your personal incredulity, and failure to absorb any of the copious information supplied to you, do not constitute evidence of a hoax.

 

[Patrick1000]

The most important issue is the sanitation problem per se

Long, long ago, I mentioned that space sickness was already well-known by the Apollo 8 flight. I dons indeed space sickness that caused the diarrhea. My point, my main point stands and it stands very well regardless of the diarrhea's etiology.

THE DIARRHEA FLOATING IN THE CABIN IS IN AND OF ITSELF THE PROBLEM, IRRESPECTIVE OF HOW IT GOT TO DO ITS FLOATING!!!!!!!!!!!!

The cat is out of the bag here, and it is not a cat you want to get to know.

To again emphasize, the whole Borman diarrhea debacle is important not only because it represents a phony medical evaluation. The behavior of the doctors and astronauts is not consistant with the viral gastroenteritis diagnosis, but additionally, it shows there is a flaw in the sanitation set up. There really is none to speak of.

Say Loss Leader that "space sickness" did cause diarrhea. Now in an Apollo ship, every time an astronaut got "space sickness" he would be exposing his colleagues, by way of the resulting space sickness associated diarrhea, to the full complement of germs in his stool. Now if Collins did that to me, got space sick and pooped in the cabin, and I am Neil Armstrong about to descend to the lunar surface, and I have spent say a day breathing air with Collins poop in it, poop from "space sickness associated diarrhea", and I now harbor a full complement of Collins'; alimentary tract bugs in my own gi tract, including potential pathogens, am I going to feel safe? Is Aldrin safe?

Absolutely not!

Diagnosis; fake mission!

 

[Garrison]

You Miss the Point SusPilot, GOOD SANITATION IS NOT OPTIONAL HERE !!!This is about basic hygiene, not just in space, but anywhere. This is common sense and it is quite obviously not being exercised.

No Patrick its your 'if I ran the zoo' fantasy devoid of any connection to the real world context in which the Apollo missions were planned and launched.

 

[Patrick1000]

Laugh all you want, this is important

At this point we have had urination, defacation, and farting used by P1K.

These are childhood obsessions. Most children go through a phase of fascination with such bodily functions.

Laugh all you want, this is important

 

[Garrison]

gi tract, including potential pathogens, am I going to feel safe? Is Aldrin safe?

Aldrin was in a relatively flimsy piece of machinery in the vacuum of space on his way to execute a landing on the moon, so no he wasn't safe by any ordinary definition of the word, and no I don't think the sanitation arrangements were anywhere near the top of his list of things to worry about.

 

[Patrick1000]

Why is the Shuttle toilet or the space station toilet the way they are?

No Patrick its your 'if I ran the zoo' fantasy devoid of any connection to the real world context in which the Apollo missions were planned and launched.

Why is the Shuttle toilet or the space station toilet the way they are?

 

[Garrison]

Laugh all you want, this is importantthis is my fantasy

FTFY, and thanks I will:

 

[Patrick1000]

How can it possibly not be fake if Borman takes the very pill that made him sick?

Aldrin was in a relatively flimsy piece of machinery in the vacuum of space on his way to execute a landing on the moon, so no he wasn't safe by any ordinary definition of the word, and no I don't think the sanitation arrangements were anywhere near the top of his list of things to worry about.

How can it possibly not be fake if Borman takes the very pill that made him sick? He jeopardized the entire mission, now intentionally by taking a second pill. The Houston people told him that they contemplated an abort, and what does Borman go and do? He takes a second pill?!!!!

Diagnosis; fake mission!

 

[Garrison]

Why is the Shuttle toilet or the space station toilet the way they are?

Because they were developed later for locations with a lot more room to play with and a quite different mission. You might as well ask why are there bathrooms in a 747 Jumbo Jet but not in an F-22, its about priorities, objectives and mission goals.

You simply don't seem to appreciate the Cold War mentality that drove the space race, if Apollo 1 didn't stop NASA do you really think a plastic bag toilet would?

 

[Garrison]

How can it possibly not be fake if Borman takes the very pill that made him sick? He jeopardized the entire mission, now intentionally by taking a second pill. The Houston people told him that they contemplated an abort, and what does Borman go and do? He takes a second pill?!!!!

Diagnosis; fake mission!

Diagnosis: people do dumb things sometimes, even clever highly trained people, that's a reality you will have to deal with when you grow up.