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Merged Apollo "hoax" discussion / Lick observatory laser saga

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I'm still waiting in breathless anticipation for something that tops the need to use the moon as a radio comms bounce because, as any fule knoe, we couldn't communicate by radio beyond line of sight before then...

What a maroon. Oh, for the days when trolls were actually competent.
 
One of the posters here (Foxholeatheist) were nominated for a post where he describes a qualification run for combat medic or some such.
He got the runs at some point and had to let go, but kept running and made it. It was treated rather matter of fact by everyone involved, as in having him sit on a poncho in the truck back to base.

I remember it well :)

Never has a guy who pooped his pants in a good cause received such unanimous JREF applause.
 
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Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Loss Leader
 
You know what I just remembered, fighter pilots fly with a diaper on. It's not exactly the most glamorous part of the profession but they will mess themselves for the sake of the mission. The Apollo astronauts, being all pilots, wouldn't have had a problem pooping under any condition, just so long as it was in the interests of the US.
 
Diagnosis; FAKE MISSION, Fighter pilots do not go on 9 day missions without landing.

You know what I just remembered, fighter pilots fly with a diaper on. It's not exactly the most glamorous part of the profession but they will mess themselves for the sake of the mission. The Apollo astronauts, being all pilots, wouldn't have had a problem pooping under any condition, just so long as it was in the interests of the US.

Fighter pilots do not go on 8/9 day missions without landing Loss Leader. The issue here is risk of infection, serious infection to others, and jeopardization of an "Apollo Mission", and were this real, risk of death.

Loss Leader, say you are the medical director of a nursing home. You have been informed by staff members at Friday/before weekend morning rounds that 2 patients have highly contagious and very much garden variety viral gastroenteritis.

You of course are greatly concerned, not only for the well being of these 2 patients, but for the other patients under your charge. If others there become ill, it is difficult for you to determine this often times, as this being a nursing home and not an acute care hospital, you are only around occasionally. You are not physically available 24/7. Also, these patients can crump pretty fast, become dehydrated, develop electrolyte problems and so forth. Of course that is no big deal assuming one can identify the problem and get them to an acute care hospital, but these people turn sour in a hurry, and then things snowball. It is not so easy to institute effective treatment when you catch this stuff late, as opposed to being on top of it. Just administering intravenous fluids is not straight forward in a nursing home often times, especially when patients are ill and getting worse. The nurses are not as good at starting IVs. Their clinical skills are respectable, but not great, as they do not regularly attend to patients in an acute care setting. If things go really bad for someone, an infected patient, you worry if the nurses will be able to pick up on it.

Also Loss Leader, you have noticed that your staff ignores your frequent admonitions with regard to basics such as hand washing. You are well aware that simple thorough hand washing, before and after contact with any potentially infected surface or person, reduces the risk of infectious agent transmission more than does any other proactive "precaution".

Keeping all this in mind on a Friday, knowing you will be available only by phone and not in person for the weekend, you gather your staff. Speaking to all, and making frequent clear eye contact with the charge nurses, you emphasize your concerns. Not only are the patients/nursing home residents at risk, but so too are staff members. You emphasize to the housekeeping group the importance of keeping surfaces clean after contact with potentially infected substances. You remind the staff, everybody, to wash their hands before and after every single contact with a patient or potentially infected surface/body. You remind the staff to educate visitors with respect to the high risk, and tell the staff to instruct relatives and friends of the patients/residents to take special care in washing their hands and avoiding surfaces that are potentially infected. You remind the staff what to look for with regard to signs suggestive of a new infection. You remind the staff off potential complications under the circumstances, such as pneumonia developing in an elderly debilitated patient that has become all the more debilitated in the setting of acute viral gastroenteritis. You make plans to contact the nursing staff twice a day over the weekend to discuss their concerns and yours as well, and to trouble shoot problems before they snowball. You won't be able to be there physically this weekend Loss Leader, and so communication and obsessive complulsive atttention to detail are mission critical.

You leave with some worry, but look forward to the weekend away from the nursing home. Your staff has its problems, but they are attentive, and you are confident despite your understandable worry that things will more likely than not go reasonably well. Sure somebody might get sick and very sick, but the staff is now well prepared. You drive home to see your wife with a sense of having done the very best you could in preparing the staff for what may prove to be a challenging weekend.

This happens all of the time in our world of nursing home care Loss Leader, day in and day out, weekend in and weekend out. The astronauts would have been all the more at risk than these nursing home patients I just described and there would be a heck of a lot more on the line.

This type of thing is simple, straight forward, done all of the time. I do it, my colleagues do it. Charles Berry did not do it.

Apollo 8 is big time fake. This was said to have been an 8/9 day mission in a confined tin can with one astronaut assumed to have very infectious viral gastroenteritis. Infected feces and vomitus floated about the cabin and would have been presumed to have contaminated essentially every single surface in that zero G box.

So nobody gets even the slightest bit excited. Oh sure people wrote after the fact that they thought about aborting the mission, but what did they do in real time? Nothing! This mission is fake. Has to be. AND, there were other serious issues , bacterial infection for one to be considered. AND, Borman took a second seconal pill after he said he thought the first one made him sick.

This is space jive, not space medicine.

Diagnosis; fake mission.
 
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Pat (very appropriate name that) you yourself have quoted it. It was too late to turn back, they were already going round the moon, the discussion only took a few minutes.
 
DIAGNOSIS FAKE MISSION; Fundamental Flaw In Sanitation Sytem Design

Lest my point about the cislunar sanitation concerns be misunderstood, please allow me to elaborate.

For the moment, let us assume that Frank Borman really did have a bad case of the runs, and along with that, bad nausea with vomiting during the Apollo 8 cislunar journey. And let us assume for the moment that we do not care what did this to our fearless commander, whether it was secanol, or virus, or sheer fright/nerves, we simply assume the vomiting and diarrhea occurred as stated, for whatever reason, based on whatever etiology.

What does that mean when the Apollo 8 astronauts return? Well it means one needs to fix the bathroom. Were the Borman episode to have been "real", environmental people and medical people would have had to have gotten together for an urgent brainstorming session post flight, and would have had to have come up with a "solution" to the "sanitation problem".

First of all, were the Borman thing to have been real, the brainstormers would have initially breathed in a deep collective sigh of relief. They dodged a bullet, not to mention some turds as well. Borman had gotten sick, but Lovell and Anders lucked out, no viral transmission, even though vomitus and diarrhea had floated about the cabin fior some undisclosed period of time. Actually, the cabin should have been assumed to have been badly contaminated and infectious for the duration of the flight, start to ever loving finish. With no bleaching water on hand, and in a zero G environment, literally EVERYTHING would have had to have been suspected of contamination with infected feces and vomitus, assuming Dr. Berry's tentative diagnosis of viral gastroenteritis to have been correct.

Assuming Borman had really gotten ill, it would have become all too frighteningly apparent that the same thing could easily happen again, and again, and again. In such close quarters, the astronauts would be a set up to make one another sick as space dogs. And the next time it were to have had happened, were it to have been in any sense real, they may very well not have made out so well, been so lucky, as they were in the Borman case.

Even without diarrhea, we know the sanititation was exceedingly poor, as per Charlie Duke, and as per comments by other astronauts both before and after the Apollo 11 Mission. Feces was said to have been getting on stuff. With so much at stake, a lunar landing and my mom's $130,000,000,000 investment, any and every reasonable precaution should have been taken.

With the system set up as it was alleged to have been, the risk for infection would be viewed as unacceptably high in the zero G command module box. A doctor working with environmental officers/technicians after Apollo 8's return, people trying to address the safety concerns due to the poor sanitation, would point out that in addition to gastrointestinal viruses, pooping in the bag, with or without diarrhea, was exposing the astronauts to the risk of infection with Salmonella, Shigella, Camplobacter, Yersinia, Giardia, Cryptosporidium, C. difficile, and hepatitis viruses.

Additionally, given the zero G environment, a very meaningful and real "airborne hazard" existed. Just one, only one, simply one, very possible and commonly occurring additional infectious diarrheal episode, say on Apollo 11, would place untold jillions of infectious particles in the very "air" that the astronauts breathed. Would "real" environmental and medical personal ignore these very meaningful risks post Apollo 8's return? Well of course not.

The phony Apollo 8 diarrhea business exposes the "sanitation plan" as no real plan at all. Genuine, real environmental technicians, and genuine, real doctors, are not making the decisions regarding these issues. To be sure, there may be medical and environmental people very much NOT in the know, NOT in on the fraud that may well have been part of the team evaluating this type of thing. Though to be sure, they would not be involved in deciding anything meaningful one way or the other with regard to addressing concerns. There are no concerns. The whole thing must be fake. Given what we see here, it can be no other way.

The point about the poor sanitation is not that the Apollo Program Team did not know what they were doing from the get go. It is that once the Apollo Program gets underway, and especially given the events alleged to have occurred with Frank Borman enroute to the moon in December of 1968, well then the sanitation plan at that point, were the mission to have had been real, would have been exposed right then and there, as a mission subjecting the astronauts to an unacceptably high degree of risk.

If Michael Collins gets diarrhea once due to a simple upset stomach and nothing else,that is, he has no viral gastroenteritis, rather on 07/18/1969 he has a "nervous stomach" due to anxiety(very very possible given the alleged circumstances) and has a loose BM or two, now, with only 48 hours to the "landing", astronauts Armstrong and Aldrin are going to then breath this stuff in, touch it, touch their mouths, ingest it, innoculate themselves!!!???!!!??? Charles Berry for one is not saying a dang thing about this. It must be fake. It cannot possibly be otherwise.

This is bogus bogus bogus bogus, and we can see it. Not so much because it was a bad plan from the get go, but rather because it becomes a ridiculously flawed plan to continue with after the Borman episode. And in light of this, to continue with such a ridiculously dangerous "lack of sanitation plan", or better said, to continue with such a woefully inadequate and therefore unacceptably unsafe sanitation plan, means one and only one thing.........

Diagnosis; fake mission.
 
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Hear that sound folks?
That's the sound of the P1000 patent high speed motorised goalpost revving up.
 
Sorry, but has P1000 provided any documentation from NASA or the space sciences community, written prior to Apollo, that considered bowel movements as a major impediment to lunar exploration?
 
DIAGNOSIS; FAKE MISSION, This is not Rocket Science

Sorry, but has P1000 provided any documentation from NASA or the space sciences community, written prior to Apollo, that considered bowel movements as a major impediment to lunar exploration?

As I have become fond of saying Obviousman, this is not "rocket science", Apollo is quite literally not. And what is at issue here, applies to a class of kindergarten children every bit as much as it does to alleged "MOONWALKERS".

If there is concern for an "outbreak" of viral gastroenteritis as there would be should a single kindergarten class child become infected, or a single "astronaut", confined with 2 colleagues in an ever so tight cabin, the concerns of physicians would be generic. One need not have a "NASA evaluation" to clarify what is of concern here, and in the case of astronauts, a big big big concern. Certainly, the worry is greater for the astronauts because medical people cannot get at them directly, but that concern is similarly appreciated for the children. This is not about "space science", or specifically aerospace medicine. This is garden variety, down to earth, not so extraordinary, not rocket science stuff.

As a rule, viral gastroenteritis per se is self limited. It runs a relatively brief course and that is that. However, like the case with a kindergarten class, one simple astronaut case can turn to three cases, and things may suddenly move from garden variety to quite out of hand.

Viral gastroenteritis in a 5 year old is not such a big deal when parents can look after the child at home, but what about an astronaut in cislunar space? Would he/she be as easily looked after? Say within a command module, Apollo 8 or Apollo 11, 2 of 3 astronauts have diarrhea. If Borman were to have actually have been sick, you would have expected all 3 to have become ill given the infectivity and conditions. Now you have multiple astronauts with what on earth typically amounts to a garden variety, self limited problem. But now this problem does not necessarily seem so benign when viewed looking up from earth at sick astronauts in cislunar space. Fecal material floats in the cabin's "air" and can be inhaled. Dehydration, electrolyte problems, aseptic/viral meningitis and so forth become very significant and altogether meaningful concerns.

How about fulminant diarrea while in a space suite while doing an EVA? This is not by any means a stretch. An astronaut doesn't know when the runs will hit. Say Apollo 8 was going to be a "landing" instead of a lunar orbital journey. Say they let the 3 boys continue, and on the day of the landing, Lovell just notices a hint of symptomatology. He is a tough stud, that Lovell guy, so he tells everyone he is fine, flies the bug down, climbs out and poops like crazy inside his EVA pants, poops 'em full like a mad man, right on the lunar surface, right inside of the space suit. All this, from a "simple, usually self limited infectious enteritis". This is not far fetched, actually, very very very reasonable, if one were to believe the Borman diarrhea due to viral gastroenteritis in cislunar space story to begin with.

I hope you are getting my point. This is a garden variety, easily adressed problem when dealt with from our blue planet, but were astronauts like Borman truly afflicted, which they very well could be were cislunar travel and lunar exploration ever to be come a reality, well then, viral gastroenteritis, a real case, would be a big big big concern for physicans.

In the case of the kindergarten children, you send the sick ones home to stay until they are well, and you educate the others, their families, and you set about instituting appropriate precautions. If no one gets sick, great, though that is unlikely given the nature of these problems. If other children, the school teacher, and or parents become ill, at least you are battling appropriately and will almost for sure prevail without a major casualty given the favorable circumstances. But with astronauts, it is more difficult, and one could never be too cautious.

Of course it would be absolutely ridiculous to make the claim that bowel movements would be out of the question, that space travel was/is/and will remain off limits due to hygenic concerns. I am not asserting that by any means. What I am asserting however is that a purportedly high tech program of lunar exploration cannot hope to succeed if it ignores the fundamentals of sanitation, if it ignores the simple fundamentals of good hygiene.

We have indeed caught the Apollo boys with their pants down here. I do not like it anymore than anyone else, but are we to ignore the obvious truth?

If Apollo were genuine, there would have been a genuine program adressing these problems, those of sanitation. Evaluating how best to go about protecting astronauts and then implementing whatever proceedures deemed appropriate.

This is utterly absurd. Apollo claims to have succeeded in sending its Mission 8 crew from the earth to the moon and then around that same orb a bit, and then, bringing the trailblazers back to our home planet in December of 1968. Yet, one of Apollo 8's crew members was said to have been sick with viral gastroenteritis, his vomitus and diarrheal stools wafting through the ship's zero G cabin threatening the other 2 crew members and the entire mission. Are we to believe given this set of circumstances and the commonality of this type of problem, the pedestrian commonality of this type of infection, that they would actually send Armstrong/Collins/Aldrin up in number 11; to get nude, poop in a bag, and were one of them just a hair off the mark, or if one got sick like Borman, the cabin would wind up swarming with potentially infectious droplets, droplets commander Armstrong could easily ingest(hand to mouth) or inhale. And in so doing, the fist moonwalker would descend to the lunar surface with God only knows what virus, or Salmonella or Shigella cooking there in his belly. Why it is preposterous. It never would be allowed to occur, the genuine taking of such a risk by NASA. We may confidently conclude therefore.....

Diagnosis; fake mission.
 
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Fighter pilots do not go on 8/9 day missions without landing Loss Leader. The issue here is risk of infection, serious infection to others, and jeopardization of an "Apollo Mission", and were this real, risk of death.

Loss Leader, say you are the medical director of a nursing home. You have been informed by staff members at Friday/before weekend morning rounds that 2 patients have highly contagious and very much garden variety viral gastroenteritis.

...and that's where I stopped reading. Elderly, infirm people, a confirmed diagnosis of a dangerous infection and a situation where you can realistically intervene to prevent further infection. Patrick, are you familiar with the term "straw man fallacy"? If not, you soon will be.

You still have nothing.
 
Lest my point about the cislunar sanitation concerns be misunderstood, please allow me to elaborate.

For the moment, let us assume that Frank Borman really did have a bad case of the runs...

...and once again that's where I stopped reading. Let's not assume that, eh?

Evidence that Borman had severe diarrhea - nil. All we have is his report of one loose BM. All the rest - all the purple prose about the entire cabin being pasted with globules of space poop - is completely pulled out of Patrick's imagination.

So anything he concludes from his assumptions is just another straw man fallacy.

And he still has nothing. As always. Except a poopie phobia.
 
Sorry, but has P1000 provided any documentation from NASA or the space sciences community, written prior to Apollo, that considered bowel movements as a major impediment to lunar exploration?

Funnily enough no. But there is evidence that the medical regime was constantly being reviewed and updated through the programme, as you would expect.

Following the Apollo 7 preflight, inflight, and postflight experience, a preventive
medicine regimen was detailed in the medical requirements document. Since the
Apollo 7 mission, a 21-day preflight period of modified crew isolation has been maintained. It is impossible and unrealistic in the operational environment to require total
isolation of the crew from all individuals and yet to have the crew accomplish its mission. Every attempt has been made to control the environment of the crew, whereever
possible, concerning food, water, and air and to limit crew contacts to the minimum

Thirty days before the mission launch date, the programed medical evaluations
begin with a detailed crew briefing concerning all of the potential examinations and the
clinical problems encountered on previous missions. Concerns relating to the particular flight are also discussed, and the first physical examination and collection of laboratory data are completed. Detailed physical examinations are conducted again at
14 and 5 days preflight, and an abbreviated physical examination is conducted on the
day before lift-off. For the Apollo 11 mission, the crewmen were examined on a dailybasis for the 5 days preceding the flight. The postflight examinations are performed immediately after recovery and 24 hours after recovery. Daily physical examinations
were conducted on the Apollo 11 crew during the 21-day quarantine period. "

The lack of crew illness on the Apollo 10 and 11 missions has been gratifying.It appears that a number of factors were involved in the improvement noted over theApollo 7, 8, and 9 missions: (1) the Apollo 10 and 11 launches took place during the
time of year in which infectious illnesses are less prevalent in the general population,(2) the crews made increased attempts to secure adequate preflight rest and to maintain immunity, and (3) the number of personal contacts was reduced as prescribed bythe preventive medicine program.

Apollo-7-to-11-Medical-Concerns-and-Results


There is also a note that:
Feces collection in both the LM and the CM is accomplished through the use of
the Gemini fecal collection system. This system is a tape-on bag which is only marginally adequate because an inordinate amount of time is required for its use and because no provision is made to isolate odors that accompany defecation.
So worried that it's a bit slow, unpleasant and awkward to use , but no major medical concerns.
 
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How many times will Patrick imply that the flight surgeons settled on a diagnosis of gastroenteritis before someone calls him out on it?

He's done it several times on this page already.
 
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