The Realities of Mind Control - What can actually be done?

[Greedo]

Conspiracists cling on to their idea that we are all mind-controlled.

Some go all the way nutty and believe it's dome by some sort of rays, HAARP, or what have you.

Others insist that it's being done MKULTRA-style; not seldom with the addition of "Project Monarch", wich springs entirely out of the mind of a woman by the name of Cathy O'Brien. Believers assert that we are all systematically being manipulated through every major media outlet, by placing Illuminati symbolism everywhere, using reverse psychology and so on.

An avid promoter of this "theory" is a person that goes by the suggestive name of Vigilant Citizen.

This guy can't leave anything alone. Everything is part of the evil scheme to control everybody.

One word, and I am not making this up, that keeps coming up on his site is Sex Kitten Programming.
If you got some spare (make sure it's spare) time on your hands and you don't mind toral lunatics, robbed of any reason and sense of reality whatsoever, stroll through his site. For a great laugh, don't forget the comment sections .

http://vigilantcitizen.com/latestnews/rihannas-mind-control-perfume-ad/

I've heard many people say the site is a joke, but I maintain that he is sincere.


Most Illuminati believers believe in some sort of mind control - most likely not quite as crazy as mister Vigilant (one might equally well say paranoid), but still believing that "the media" is trying to control us, if not by means of subliminal messages (hasn't that been debunked as utterly ineffective? One would think the Illuminati know better...), then by the means of reverse psychology, another word that CTists cling on to (probably a bit of this in it)

I definitely think one reason why the mind contol theory is so appealing to conspiracists is that with mind control, they have a (for them) good reason not to trust anyone. For those that are more intelligent in the CT rows, this solves the possibly showing conflict, that almost no one in the scientific community believes in these things. Remember, intelligent people don't belive crackpot theories because they've turned stupid - but because they're better at defending - and rationalizing their beliefs.


I have got two questions:

• 1. What is the reality of mind control? Could it be done, even close to the way the conspiracists think?
• 2. How do conspiracists explain the fact that they are magically exempt from that mind control?

 

[Scott Sommers]

OK...I'm back. And this time, I'm for real. I do not know what 'mind control' means.

I am a PhD candidate in Educational Psychology. I have never been taught about how to control people's minds. In fact, in our studies, we can barely get any measurable effect. Where did this amazing secret technology that no one in a psychology department has ever heard of come from? Aliens? The secret global government developed in those underground cities? It would have to be, since even professors at top research schools have never heard of it.

There is no such thing as mind control. There is no such thing as brain-washing. I have tried talking to people before about what brain-washing could be. I still don't understand what it's supposed to be. Maybe you can clear this up for me.

 

[Greedo]

...

There is no such thing as mind control. There is no such thing as brain-washing. I have tried talking to people before about what brain-washing could be. I still don't understand what it's supposed to be. Maybe you can clear this up for me.

Well, for instance, conspiracists point to things in TV; Symbols, like the eye of providence, wich is today very often falsly associated with the (bavarian)Illuminati through popular culture. They'll point to the eye in the pyramid appearing in Spongebob (in a scene in a toystore, there is a pyramid with an eye on one shelf; an obvious joke and reference to the Illuminati Card game, a classic) or in Family guy or whatever conspiracy-minded folks are watching o) and say it's reverse psychology. That the Illuminati put it there so we associate the Illuminati with fiction so we think they™ aren't real. Another example would be this:





Why don't they get when they're made fun of.

 

[Ocelot]

OK...I'm back. And this time, I'm for real. I do not know what 'mind control' means.

I am a PhD candidate in Educational Psychology. I have never been taught about how to control people's minds. In fact, in our studies, we can barely get any measurable effect. Where did this amazing secret technology that no one in a psychology department has ever heard of come from? Aliens? The secret global government developed in those underground cities? It would have to be, since even professors at top research schools have never heard of it.

There is no such thing as mind control. There is no such thing as brain-washing. I have tried talking to people before about what brain-washing could be. I still don't understand what it's supposed to be. Maybe you can clear this up for me.

http://www.cultwatch.com/mctb.html

 

[Scott Sommers]

Now I get it. You flash a symbol at someone and they do what you want. I would've called that magic, but if you call if you call it mind control, then that's what mind control is. How does this work? What causal mechanism does this work through? So it's 'reverse psychology', is that it. My wife talks about that a lot, but I must have skipped that day at school. I've been taught by some of the leading neuro- and social-psychologists in the world, and we never learned about that.

I know I don't have to convince you, but I have no idea what 'mind control' is supposed to be. I see it all the time in the movies and it sure is cool. I guess that makes it true. Right now, as we speak, there's a fellow over on the 9/11 Conspiracy Forum talking about the film Terminator and how that proves something about something. But until one of those conspiracy folk come over here and explain to me how this works, I'm going to have to quote that George Bush guy on this one and say "the juries still out."

 

[Scott Sommers]

http://www.cultwatch.com/mctb.html

I don't know if this is serious and you really want a response. Honest question...did you really read this, or did you just do a quick search and post whatever you found?

Terms like 'brain-washing' and 'mind control' have been used frequently to explain the involvement of some people in New Age religions that appeared during the 1970s and 80s. I have read books about this and talked with people who are or have been involved in such groups. I used to study Mandarin Chinese with a woman who was and still is a full-time missionary in the Christ-based sex cult The Family.

Have a look at that thing you linked to. Does this have anything to do with the kind of ideas that the term 'mind control' evokes? Deception? Get serious? So I lie to people and this is mind control? Does that mean when you try to pick up drunk girls by telling them they're beautiful, that's mind control? If you read through the whole page, apparently it does.

Mind Control is not what many secular authors have tried to portray it as - a magic method of controlling its targets against their will making them only victims. Neither is it what those in opposition to the secular Mind Control model have defined it as, in their reaction they let the pendulum swing to the other side saying that Mind Control does not exist and is a fable invented by anti-Christian secularists. Cultwatch says that Mind Control is a suite of practices Mind Control groups use to influence their members and potential recruits, a real attempt to control their minds. There is an enormous amount of evidence that certain groups are employing the Mind Control methods. Mind Control will fail or succeed to a certain degree depending on the many factors of its target. The target of Mind Control is always able to choose to stop allowing it to influence them. Mind Control is a morally wrong, unbiblical and unethical practice for any group. All Christians and non-Christians should strongly oppose its use. Counter-cult groups should oppose its use, labeling correctly any group which has been proven to use it as a Mind Control cult.

But what happened to the symbol manipulation of the Illuminati? Oh...that's not real mind control. Real mind control is that thing they do to you in graduate school where they threaten and intimidate you, control your life, and promise great things for you if only you can do all the stuff they tell you to do.

 

[Greedo]

Hmm, well, in the case of cults, I'd say brain washing is the general term used to describe the systematic deception going on. Of course, there is no specific thing as "mind control" or "brain washing". Thanks for your input, non-nutty Scott!

 

[uk_dave]

Mind control is predicated on what we call 'triggers'.

'Triggers' have to be carefully formulated to suit the individual or group.

So, for example, a mind control 'trigger' for people posting on a JREF conspiracy subforum might consist of the following phrase:

I know 911 was an inside job because it's obvious only you can't see it because it was secret but plain to see and you're wrong and I'm right. So there!

** Now Think **

Go on, admit it: You really want to, don't you?

 

[Scott Sommers]

Hmm, well, in the case of cults, I'd say brain washing is the general term used to describe the systematic deception going on. Of course, there is no specific thing as "mind control" or "brain washing". Thanks for your input, non-nutty Scott!

Well, you're welcome. And as much as this is true the term mind control, or anything like it, is a meaningless term.

Mind control is predicated on what we call 'triggers'.

'Triggers' have to be carefully formulated to suit the individual or group.

So, for example, a mind control 'trigger' for people posting on a JREF conspiracy subforum might consist of the following phrase:

I know 911 was an inside job because it's obvious only you can't see it because it was secret but plain to see and you're wrong and I'm right. So there!

Or that's how they used it in Telefon and the Manchurian Candidate. But now we have a 3rd meaning for the term.

I have a friend who likes to talk about this. He's a bright guy, but does way too much mind-altering stuff. I've tried to get him to clear this up and it just doesn't work. Mind control conspiracy stuff is about as well-organized as 9/11 Truth. It just is a fact, and that's that.

 

[uk_dave]

Did I use the wrong font colour?

 

[Dave Rogers]

Did I use the wrong font colour?

You all use the wrong font colour. There is one that can take over your mind, but I can't tell you what it is because it's classified.

Dave

 

[Scott Sommers]

You all use the wrong font colour. There is one that can take over your mind, but I can't tell you what it is because it's classified.

Dave

That's supposed to be my secret. And whatever you do, don't let them know that there really is government mind control, but THEY have hired me to come to the all important JREF and tell the sheeple there's nothing like it.

 

[uk_dave]

You all use the wrong font colour. There is one that can take over your mind, but I can't tell you what it is because it's classified.

Dave

It's the white one, isn't it?

Let me try.......

You must tell me what it all means

** Think **

You can't resist now, can you?

 

[Horatius]

Have a look at that thing you linked to. Does this have anything to do with the kind of ideas that the term 'mind control' evokes? Deception? Get serious? So I lie to people and this is mind control? Does that mean when you try to pick up drunk girls by telling them they're beautiful, that's mind control? If you read through the whole page, apparently it does.

I think you're running into the same problem with this "mind control" technology as conceived of by CTers that we run into with any kind of technology as conceived of by CTers. That is, they're confusing the Hollywood version with reality.

In Hollywood, Evil People can build a laser that can disintegrate things from thousands of miles away. So of course they believe that Evil People can do that in reality!


Similarly, in Hollywood, Evil People can program a person like a computer. So of course they believe that Evil People can do that in reality!

Of course, the reality of "mind control" is much like the reality of lasers- much less powerful than depicted, much harder than depicted, and almost always less effective than other, more practical solutions to the problem it's intended to solve.

I'd say that the reality of "mind control" would probably be better described as "behaviour control", or just "training". Using control over people and their circumstances to influence their outward behaviour, and, maybe in some extreme cases, their thought patterns. As the link above shows, it's often used in cults, but it also is used in things like abusive relationships.

And of course, those cases of real world "mind control" show how the Hollywood version is unrealistic. Cult programmers or abusive family members rely on having almost total physical control of their victims - where they live, where they work, who the talk to, what they read, what they watch, what they eat, and so on. And even with all that, they need to constantly reinforce their control, lest the victim wake up one day and figure out how to get out of the situation.

There's no way some nebulous "them" could have that sort of absolute control over any large enough number of people to "control" them the way the CTers think they do. Even in the more limited Manchurian Candidate version of the CT, once the victim was sent out to do whatever task he was "programmed" to do, they'd be more likely run to the cops than to carry out their mission.

 

[Ocelot]

Well I guess this is what I deserve for posting a terse link with no personal comment. I was in a hurry. Sorry.

I don't know if this is serious and you really want a response. Honest question...did you really read this, or did you just do a quick search and post whatever you found?

You seemed unfamiliar with the term "mind control." What I've read about mind control is mainly this http://www.amazon.com/Battle-Mind-Physiology-Conversion-Brainwashing/dp/1883536065 I've read around the subject on the internet in addition and dipped into various discussions about cults and new age religions. The use of the term mind control appears to be rather consistently defined in this context. A little overblown but at least based upon observation.

The page I directed you to summarizes the techniques detailed in the book by which such organisations exert influence over people's mind's. Whilst the term "mind control" evokes some sort of iron grip what the term refers to really is just influence rather than control. The book I mentioned is carefull to distinguish between the term brainwashing and mind control. The former being the realms of fiction like the ipcress file and rumour like MKULTRA whilst the latter being a term for the more subtle influence observed at play in the groups recruiting and retention activities.

Terms like 'brain-washing' and 'mind control' have been used frequently to explain the involvement of some people in New Age religions that appeared during the 1970s and 80s. I have read books about this and talked with people who are or have been involved in such groups.

So you do know what is meant by the term "mind control" in the context I raised.

I used to study Mandarin Chinese with a woman who was and still is a full-time missionary in the Christ-based sex cult The Family.

Any flirty fishing?

Have a look at that thing you linked to. Does this have anything to do with the kind of ideas that the term 'mind control' evokes?

Well to me the combination of those techniques and effects are exactly what the term "Mind Control" evokes because thats my default definition of the term. I realise that it falls pretty short of the sort of Mass Brainwashing/Mind Controll assumed by the conspiracy theorists but that was rather the point of the OP. To say what is realistically plausible in the realm of mind control and how that falls short of the more extreme claims.

Deception? Get serious? So I lie to people and this is mind control? Does that mean when you try to pick up drunk girls by telling them they're beautiful, that's mind control? If you read through the whole page, apparently it does.

Only if you skip the note at the top "Remember, all together these form Mind Control. Separately they are undesirable but they are not Mind Control."

But what happened to the symbol manipulation of the Illuminati? Oh...that's not real mind control. Real mind control is that thing they do to you in graduate school where they threaten and intimidate you, control your life, and promise great things for you if only you can do all the stuff they tell you to do.

Did you go to a really messed up graduate school? I think we might at a stretch be able to find an element of some or all of these techniques at certain schools, but I wouldn't say that a simply authoritarian school would qualify.

I posted the link because it appeared that you were unfamialr with any legitimate use of the term and wondered if this at least semi-legitimate usage were broken down into it's constituent parts then you'd have more familiarity with the compent terms.

However if you just want a good argument, I'll leave it to someone else.

 

[Ocelot]

In the interests of revealing sources it was about 15 years ago that I was last actively interested in this topic and reviewing the description of Battle for the mind I realise that I aslo read another book on the subject whihc was more focussed on Cults. Some of the infomration I mentioned may have been more relevant to that book. I'm not sure but I think it might have been http://www.amazon.com/Combatting-Cult-Mind-Control-Best-selling/dp/0892813113

 

[Scott Sommers]

In fact, I am quite familiar with the idea of brain-washing. It is completely irrelevant what William Sargant says. He is/was a nut case. The American Psychological Association position on the idea is clear.
APA Task Force on Deceptive and Indirect Techniques of Persuasion and Control. There is no professional voice that speaks about 'brain washing' or 'mind control'. It is wacko ideas from popular films and conspiracy theory. It is an idea that hangs around at the margins among lay discussions of some anti-social religious practices. And that is absolutely the end of it.

Tell me, what is this brain washing thing supposed to do? How can I tell that someone is brain washed? What are these things they will do by which I will know someone is under this form of control.

 

[Sabrina]

In all honesty, what I think conspiracy theorists want is nothing more than a scapegoat. Something they can point to and say, "Look, see? It was the evil (fill in the "evil" organization) that was controlling the (fill in the event/person/weather effect/mindset) all along! I heroically saved you all from them by refusing to submit, which forced them to stop in some way I haven't figured out yet!" Okay, that last sentence was parody, but the first part stands; CTers in general just want SOMETHING to lay the blame on.

In my opinion, most CT proponents want to believe in mind-control or what have you because they want an excuse for not getting up and doing anything with their lives. They're lazy, plain and simple, and want everything handed to them on a silver platter, so when they realize they're going to have to actually work for whatever it is they want, they instead put all the blame on an outside force (in this case, mind-control) that prevents them from getting what they want in some nefarious, nebulous way. CT proponents simply refuse to comprehend that life is hard, that you have to work for the things you want, and that nothing will ever come to you if you wait for it. They're eternal children, in other words.

It also, in my opinion, allows them a sense of false superiority; in many cases they've failed to succeed in whatever areas they attempt (i.e. Steven Jones failing at actually accomplishing cold fusion before turning to the world of 9/11 CTs), and their fragile little egos need a booster, which they gain by lording it over the "sheeple" who are too fat, stupid, and happy to "wake up". So many times I have seen a CTer infer that they are far superior to us poor "sheeple and shills" because they have discovered the "truth", and act condescendingly in the face of overwhelming evidence to contradict their theories, able to dismiss it all with a handwave. I could quote numerous examples from threads in this forum and the 9/11 CT forum, but I'll refrain; so much concentrated stupidity in one post might very well cause the forum to implode.

Lastly, and I believe most importantly, there certainly exists the possibility that many CT proponents are suffering from various mental disorders. The paranoia and narcissism that many of them display is too pronounced to be anything but mental illness, in my (admittedly layman's) opinion. I'm not saying that every CT proponent is suffering from mental illness, but as I recall there was a study done which indicated that a high percentage of people who were prone to believe in conspiracy theories were either suffering or would be suffering from a diagnosable mental illness at some point. I have no idea if that study has been proven through repeated testing or not, but I have to agree with the majority of the conclusions it reached. I wish I could remember the name of it so I could link to it.

Ultimately, to attempt to answer the OPs original questions: Mind-control in the sense that conspiracists think of it is impossible. Influencing the mind through careful verbal and physical manipulation is certainly possible, but outright control of another human being isn't. There is no technology in existence that I am aware of that could possibly do it. Ironically, conspiracy proponents seem to be more easily influenced than otherwise; how else would you explain their dogged clinging to a theory that has been proven wrong through science and evidence countless times? And that brings us to the second question; to a conspiracy theorist, simply because they've heard and believe in the "truth", that is enough to protect their minds, since we are incapable of erasing memories at this point in time. All they have to do is remember the "truth", and they are protected, or at least, that's my perception of it. They fail to comprehend that they are in fact the ones who are being manipulated. A delicious irony to a critical thinker, of course.

 

[Scott Sommers]

In all honesty, what I think conspiracy theorists want is nothing more than a scapegoat. Something they can point to and say, "Look, see? It was the evil (fill in the "evil" organization) that was controlling the (fill in the event/person/weather effect/mindset) all along! I heroically saved you all from them by refusing to submit, which forced them to stop in some way I haven't figured out yet!" Okay, that last sentence was parody, but the first part stands; CTers in general just want SOMETHING to lay the blame on.

Our JREF friend Ocelot doesn't appear to be a conspiracy retard. I read some of his old posts and he seems to be a lay person interested in alternative religious kind of things, like Scientology, etc. He also seems familiar with the Family International, that I posted about.

I presume he feels there is some sort of psychological transformation that a person can undergo after which they become some sort of obedient thing. I have tried to talk to people about this and what exactly 'mind control' is supposed to do to someone under these conditions, but I can't get a consistent answer.

The link he posted is to a website called Cult Watch which appears to be particularly concerned about unorthodox Christian religions.

Cultwatch is a para-church organisation made up of people from different Christian denominations. (Para-church means not founded, owned, or controlled by any one church group.) Cultwatch's two main aims are to help the people trapped in the cults and to warn people about the cult danger before they are ensnared. Cultwatch is a Christian based organisation dedicated to helping people from all walks of life.

Serious question Ocelot, is Christ important to you?.

The page he recommended is exactly the sort of confusion I am referring to. Even though it claims to be about 'mind control', it does not seem to be describing a process. It appears to be more like a moral code prescribing practices that 'proper' Christian groups would avoid. But even they seem to know this,

Cultwatch says that Mind Control is a suite of practices Mind Control groups use to influence their members and potential recruits...Mind Control is a morally wrong, unbiblical and unethical practice for any group. All Christians and non-Christians should strongly oppose its use. Counter-cult groups should oppose its use, labeling correctly any group which has been proven to use it as a Mind Control cult.

So tell me Ocelot, what is this mind control thing supposed to do to people?

 

[Alferd_Packer]

and you don't mind toral lunatics,

No, I don't mind, in fact I love nutty doughnuts.