Being transgender is hard

[epepke]

What claims make you skeptical, and what sort of research are you looking for?

I'm going to jump in here. I won't speak for anybody else, as I'm not as extreme as some. Here is what I'm skeptical of:

That diagnoses of pre-pubescent or barely pubescent children, either by the DSM or GID, are accurate enough to warrant the administration of hormones to prevent (not merely delay) puberty as provided by, for example, the WPATH (Harry Benjamin) standards.

That's really it. There's a lot that I'm not skeptical about, including hormone treatments on adults (adults can legally consent), hormone treatments on infants born with ambiguous genitalia or the victim of circumcision accidents, and wearing different clothes with a different haircut, or the existence of the transgendered in general.

What I'd like to see evidence for is what I consider ridiculously extreme confidence in the accuracy of psychological diagnostic methods on children, to the extent that it is self-evident to many that the correct thing to do is give them hormones that will at least threaten and probably destroy their ability ever to have children for the rest of their lives. Not only that, but self-evident to the point that it is perverse and an indication of bigotry to withhold automatic assent.

 

[PhantomWolf]

I want to clarify one thing. I do not in any way doubt, nor do I want to pathologize, people who feel that they belong to a different gender than their body suggests. If people are biologically male and want to behave like females stereotypically do, and they prefer being treated like females, then this is something I'm very accepting of.

I don't think you get it at all. This has nothing to do with wanting to behave like the other sex, or being treated like the other sex. Nor does it have anything to do with cross-dressing. It has to do with a funamental belief and knowledge that you are in the wrong body, created by having a brain structure and chemistry closer to the oppostite biological gender than to your own biological gender. It's not even about wanting to be a woman, it's knowing that you are one, but outwardly appear top be male.

However, what I do call into question, is the connection between the preferred gender role and using surgical and/or hormonal treatment for bodily changes. Of course if an adult person really is convinced, it's a free society and it should not be banned. But should it be encouraged? I am not convinced of that.

Why? Let's say that there was a genetic female who for some medical reason had a huge boost in testosterone during puberty and so instead of developing like a teenage girl and getting breasts and curves, she ended up with a flat chest that grew hair, as did her chin. Would you be agreeable to her having correctional surgery to become feminine? If so, what is the difference? Genetically male women feel exactly the same way this girl would, that their bodies have betrayed them and aren't who they person inside is. Altering the body is merely a way of showing the world who you really are inside.

I am aware that this is not done lightly. People are informed that in the best case, they will sometimes get some people to instinctively consider them to belong to their preferred gender, but not everyone all of the time. And if being considered as the preferred gender is the goal, it is not just people reacting disrespectfully that is a problem, then you really want/need people to instinctively and truly see you as your preferred gender, not just agree to pretend.

Again, not true, it's not about getting the world to treat you as the new gender, it's about being able to show the world your true face, and body. Try and imagine what it would be like if you were magically transformed into a pengiun. Now all the other pengiuns would treat you as one of them, but inside you would know that you weren't a penguin, that instead of being a penguin you were a human. Would you want to be changed back to being a human so others would see you as human, or would you want it because that is what you are?

So, when I think that this is a psychological issue, that does emphatically not mean 'get real and start behaving like the man you are'. Behave like a woman, behave like a man, behave like neither. Prefer people to treat you like a man, or a woman - but learn to live with the fact that your physical body is what it is, and you cannot ever hope to have everyone treat you like you would prefer.

And again it's not about how others treat you. If it was most TG's would stay their birth sex because changing often means getting treated like crap. It's about becoming the person that you honestly and truly are inside. Say "learn to live with the fact that your physical body is what it is" is a load of crap too. Trust me on that one, I learn to live with my body every day, and it is incredibly difficult, it's living a lie. Lucky for me I'm not as fully dissociative as some are and so can control it to a degree, I also have found other outlets I can use which has been a huge help. The thing is that I am often only happy when using one of them, and that's a bad thing.

To exemplify: some transgender people consider it extremely important to be classified according to their preferred gender in public documents. Of course this is only a very small part of being transgender, but it is a situation that everyone can relate to.

Assume that for whatever reason, authorities decided to classify me as a woman. Would I appeal that decision? Sure. Would I spend months or years fighting it? Certainly not. In the end, it is not really important. Presumably the biggest consequence would be that I'd be notified for having a mammogram.

I look at it more like Andrew in Millennium Man. He was created an android, but he knew he was more, he had something that made him more then his programming, that made him feel in his soul that he was human, and he wanted nothing more than to be acknowledged as such.

 

[L.Y.S.]

So if science can completely prove this "brain" assertion, then is it ethical to just change the sex with in the womb and save all the drama? I think people would be much less adverse to the concept if the sex could be changed in the womb. But it would generally be difficult to tell the brain patterns. Frankly I think this entire concept is just too in its infancy to fully understand. People say that there are decades of research and yet we need decades more. There are many things I could say on my part, but this is indeed an emotional topic for many people. And I will evade the subject matter because it’s too close to heart, just like the issue of poverty is to me.

 

[Merko]

I don't think you get it at all. This has nothing to do with wanting to behave like the other sex, or being treated like the other sex. Nor does it have anything to do with cross-dressing. It has to do with a funamental belief and knowledge that you are in the wrong body, created by having a brain structure and chemistry closer to the oppostite biological gender than to your own biological gender. It's not even about wanting to be a woman, it's knowing that you are one, but outwardly appear top be male.

Someone's gender is, for most transgender persons anyway, imprinted in every cell of their body. Perhaps there are people who 'know' that they are 'really' a lizard or the master of the universe. Perhaps they are having a really hard time to accept that their real life conditions don't match up with that conviction. Or, more commonly, just someone who believes that he or she is really, really ugly, and who are finding it extremely difficult to accept that they look the way they do.

Why? Let's say that there was a genetic female who for some medical reason had a huge boost in testosterone during puberty and so instead of developing like a teenage girl and getting breasts and curves, she ended up with a flat chest that grew hair, as did her chin. Would you be agreeable to her having correctional surgery to become feminine?

Of course. And I'm not saying transgender persons should be banned from operation or hormone treatment either. But they, and this hypothetical person, will fundamentally have to learn to accept that they were given a physical lot in life which is not what they really wanted, and although there are some things they might do to mitigate it, there are limitations to what is possible and in the end they must learn to accept and like themselves for what they are in the physical world that we live in.

Try and imagine what it would be like if you were magically transformed into a pengiun. Now all the other pengiuns would treat you as one of them, but inside you would know that you weren't a penguin, that instead of being a penguin you were a human. Would you want to be changed back to being a human so others would see you as human, or would you want it because that is what you are?

It is not possible to operate a penguin to become even remotely like a human. So it does not matter what I would want. I would still have to learn how to live life with the body I had been equipped with. Maybe I would not succeed and I would always be miserable. But it would still be my only hope.

And again it's not about how others treat you. If it was most TG's would stay their birth sex because changing often means getting treated like crap. It's about becoming the person that you honestly and truly are inside.

Sorry, I don't believe in this 'truly' bit. You truly are what you are. You may not like it. You might have preferred something else. Perhaps you can do something. If you're very fat and you hate your body because of that, you might be able to lose some weight. But maybe you're simply not able to lose nearly as much as you'd like, no matter how hard you try. In the end, you simply must learn to like yourself as you are, no matter how hard this may seem.

And I do not believe that it does not matter how other people see you. It is patently obvious that a lot of transgender people are very much interested in getting 'confirmation' from others in their new gender roles. And I don't think that's wrong at all. If you don't like your own body, I think it can certainly help you to find someone else who truly does like your body.

Say "learn to live with the fact that your physical body is what it is" is a load of crap too. Trust me on that one, I learn to live with my body every day, and it is incredibly difficult, it's living a lie.

I understand that it can be extremely difficult, I really do. But in the end, I don't think there is any other way.

 

[Aepervius]

So if science can completely prove this "brain" assertion, then is it ethical to just change the sex with in the womb and save all the drama? I think people would be much less adverse to the concept if the sex could be changed in the womb. But it would generally be difficult to tell the brain patterns. Frankly I think this entire concept is just too in its infancy to fully understand. People say that there are decades of research and yet we need decades more. There are many things I could say on my part, but this is indeed an emotional topic for many people. And I will evade the subject matter because it’s too close to heart, just like the issue of poverty is to me.

The study I remember about difference in f-to-m or m-to-f were about white matter in grey matter area. They found a correlation between the transexual and a post mortem matured brain being more like the "to" part instead of the born part. The things is, as far as I can tell they could not check it except post mortem in adult due to the placement in the brain making scanning difficult, and it is an area which mature slowly over a long time. So you would not be able to spot it in the infant brain.

The other things I wonder also, is if the white mater growth promotion is stopped once detected, would it also simply solve the problem ? Is this a correlation or a causation ? I don't think any study shows that.

 

[PhantomWolf]

I understand that it can be extremely difficult, I really do. But in the end, I don't think there is any other way.

No you don't understand, everything you write proves you have no understanding because you simply refuse to believe what you are being told and continue to post stuff that is just plain insulting. Now however I'm going to drop out of this thread before I say something I regret.

 

[Toke]

No you don't understand, everything you write proves you have no understanding because you simply refuse to believe what you are being told and continue to post stuff that is just plain insulting. Now however I'm going to drop out of this thread before I say something I regret.

If you are unhappy with Merkos style here, you should try read the last pages of "Is there any good reason for prostitution being illegal?"

 

[L.Y.S.]

The other things I wonder also, is if the white mater growth promotion is stopped once detected, would it also simply solve the problem ? Is this a correlation or a causation ? I don't think any study shows that.

Honestly I was thinking the same thing yet said nothing. How do we know that brain patterns don't play a role in other mental functions? I can bet you that this topic of "stopping" the white matter is controversial at best. And we must also not be afraid to add in addition to this assertion, does mental configuration accompany any other situations, such as forms of dysmorphia? Has science checked and seen if there is correlation between brain patterns and dismorphia? Again I'm not against the concept of transexuality, but I still think there is a lot to be desired. And if we can "stop" the white parts, is this what we as a society want? Is it better than the agonizing transition and societal consequences that those in the transgender community face? There are so many things missing from this topic and frankly there are more holes in the idea than Swiss cheese.

 

[arthwollipot]

Can anyone find a non-biased study on the prevalence of transgender identity in nature? I'm just curious to see if humans are the only ones who go through these sorts of things.

I'd be interested to know whether you have any ideas about how we might go about finding out whether non-human animals feel that they are in the wrong sexed body. I mean, it's not like you can just ask them, is it?

 

[L.Y.S.]

No you don't understand, everything you write proves you have no understanding because you simply refuse to believe what you are being told and continue to post stuff that is just plain insulting. Now however I'm going to drop out of this thread before I say something I regret.

Like it or not phantom the acceptance of certain things in our society has consequences and before any informed decision can be made on the better half of society we must review all consequences before we whole-heartedly accept something we don't understand. This situation is anything but simple, and I am apprehensive about it at best. I personally don't like the Christian rhetoric on the subject, but I'm not too sure about the "pro-community" science either. I need to see more evidence and more questions need to be answered. Especially the brain pattern arguments, how do we know that these sorts of things don't accompany many other situations? There is much to be desired here. And I understand that this could be upsetting, but that's the way things work. Society doesn't just accept things out of the blue. Things take time, research, patience, and endurance. No movement in our country or any country has ever happened without stubborn and dogged determination. This situation will prove no different.

 

[L.Y.S.]

I'd be interested to know whether you have any ideas about how we might go about finding out whether non-human animals feel that they are in the wrong sexed body. I mean, it's not like you can just ask them, is it?

No, and this is truly a difficult situation at best arth.

 

[quadraginta]

<snip>


Sorry, I don't believe in this 'truly' bit. You truly are what you are. You may not like it. You might have preferred something else. Perhaps you can do something. If you're very fat and you hate your body because of that, you might be able to lose some weight. But maybe you're simply not able to lose nearly as much as you'd like, no matter how hard you try. In the end, you simply must learn to like yourself as you are, no matter how hard this may seem.

<snip>

This comes across as an attitude of, "Too damn bad. Everybody's got problems. You just have to tough it out and deal with it."

This is also an attitude not uncommon towards people with severe, clinical depression or debilitating anxiety attacks. Common, that is, to people who haven't suffered those problems. They too cannot believe that the person who is suffering has a very real illness, an organic, medical condition quite distinct from the daily travails of life, and insist on comparing the disease to their own experience.

They are wrong, too.

What you believe to be true, based simply on your own experiences, isn't always the perfect metric to judge by. This is even more the case when it is something completely outside any experiences you might have had for comparison.

 

[Aepervius]

Like it or not phantom the acceptance of certain things in our society has consequences and before any informed decision can be made on the better half of society we must review all consequences before we whole-heartedly accept something we don't understand. This situation is anything but simple, and I am apprehensive about it at best. I personally don't like the Christian rhetoric on the subject, but I'm not too sure about the "pro-community" science either. I need to see more evidence and more questions need to be answered. Especially the brain pattern arguments, how do we know that these sorts of things don't accompany many other situations? There is much to be desired here. And I understand that this could be upsetting, but that's the way things work. Society doesn't just accept things out of the blue. Things take time, research, patience, and endurance. No movement in our country or any country has ever happened without stubborn and dogged determination. This situation will prove no different.

It seems particularly important since, looking around for web site (I have no direct access to the paper) it seems the female-to-male brain pattern correlation has been found, but the male-to-female does not seem to have a good correlation or any brain differentiation, or it seems to be a mix of situation looking either like male or female.

Seems to me this isn't as simple as it is purported to be in this thread.

 

[Aepervius]

I'd be interested to know whether you have any ideas about how we might go about finding out whether non-human animals feel that they are in the wrong sexed body. I mean, it's not like you can just ask them, is it?

Good question. I guess I would observe the "seduction" and coupling pattern they use, and see toward sex they tend to pretend themselves like : like a female ready for copulation, or like a male trying for one. Still very difficult to differentiate from animal homosexuality I guess.

 

[truethat]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOv7E9T7pjQ&feature=related

I think most of the people who are ignorant on the topic should use some common sense and educate themselves because it is obvious you don't know what you are talking about.

Also transitioning means changing to dressing like the opposite gender not sex change.

 

[Merko]

No you don't understand, everything you write proves you have no understanding because you simply refuse to believe what you are being told and continue to post stuff that is just plain insulting.

It seems to me that you are unable to have a rational discussion, because if someone does not instantly accept your views, even without any supporting arguments, you feel insulted.

I believe that it would be disrespectful and therefore insulting to treat transgender people, or anyone else, as if they were not adult human beings, and to just pretend to agree with everything they say just because it might hurt their feelings otherwise.

 

[epepke]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOv7E9T7pjQ&feature=related

I think most of the people who are ignorant on the topic should use some common sense and educate themselves because it is obvious you don't know what you are talking about.

I, for one, welcome the days when every issue about internal and psychiatric medicine can be settled by a Youtube video from the Tyra show.

 

[Merko]

This comes across as an attitude of, "Too damn bad. Everybody's got problems. You just have to tough it out and deal with it."

This is also an attitude not uncommon towards people with severe, clinical depression or debilitating anxiety attacks.

So what is your alternative then?

You can't have read my posts very well if you believe I'd think these issues are not severe, or that it would be no worse than what 'most' people go through. Severe clinical depression is not uncommon though.

Of course, these people deserve all the support and treatment that we can possibly offer. But we should not promise the impossible and it does not help anyone to have the rest of us reinforce unrealistic fantasies and expectations. In the end, everyone must learn to live in reality. Even if that is very, very, very difficult.

What you believe to be true, based simply on your own experiences, isn't always the perfect metric to judge by.

No experience in the world can change physical facts.

 

[quadraginta]

It seems to me that you are unable to have a rational discussion, because if someone does not instantly accept your views, even without any supporting arguments, you feel insulted.

I believe that it would be disrespectful and therefore insulting to treat transgender people, or anyone else, as if they were not adult human beings, and to just pretend to agree with everything they say just because it might hurt their feelings otherwise.

From what you have said you also believe that you have the right to "hurt their feelings", and even to judge them, simply because you cannot understand those feelings.

Just because something is outside of your own personal experience doesn't mean it isn't "true". Before you judge things beyond your limits of knowledge you might be well advised to learn more about the subject.

 

[truethat]

Like it or not phantom the acceptance of certain things in our society has consequences and before any informed decision can be made on the better half of society we must review all consequences before we whole-heartedly accept something we don't understand. This situation is anything but simple, and I am apprehensive about it at best. I personally don't like the Christian rhetoric on the subject, but I'm not too sure about the "pro-community" science either. I need to see more evidence and more questions need to be answered. Especially the brain pattern arguments, how do we know that these sorts of things don't accompany many other situations? There is much to be desired here. And I understand that this could be upsetting, but that's the way things work. Society doesn't just accept things out of the blue. Things take time, research, patience, and endurance. No movement in our country or any country has ever happened without stubborn and dogged determination. This situation will prove no different.

What situation? What the heck are you talking about. What "better half of society." This is not a social issue, it's a personal issue and the only reason it's being made a social issue is because of bigotry. Society needs to accept it and frankly it is beginning to accept it by trusting the source and recognizing the large number of people who are becoming more and more open about their gender issues.

The questions do not "need to be answered" the only ones who don't understand what we are talking about here are people who haven't even bothered to do any research and just don't accept it because it seems weird to them.

Even a small amount of research on the topic will show you that it is REAL and there's nothing to ACCEPT. Should we also have a discussion on whether or not alzheimers is REAL and ACCEPTABLE because there is no way to really prove people aren't just faking it?

If you see a world wide condition that is bolstered by science and research and you also see the end result of people much much happier then it's a done situation.

Only a personal conviction would cause someone to reject it. Give me a break.