Being transgender is hard

[Information Analyst]

Yes and the idea is to explore all these other reasons before anything drastic is done, and if there is no resolution be a certain age it might be a good idea to delay puberty as it may be very traumatic for the child. Nothing surgical would be done until they were an adult and freely chose it.

Which is fair enough.

 

[Professor Yaffle]

Which is fair enough.

This is pretty much how it works - in the UK at least. I used to work (doing some research) for a CAMH service where they were treating a little girl of about 7 years old who had a strong belief that she was really a boy. Obviously I don't know the full details, but at that time she was getting individual and family therapy and they were working with the school to see what the best strategy was to help her cope.

 

[Rolfe]

I suppose you might get away without a wash down afterward for certain forms of PE, but surely for cross-country and swimming, showers are pretty much a necessity.

Neither was an option at my school, since it was in the middle of a city, and had no swimming pool. After gym or hockey or netball or tennis or whatever, we just changed back into our ordinary uniforms. Shocking, maybe, but we thought nothing of it.

Rolfe.

 

[Moon-Spinner]

I think it is becoming quite common to prescribe a drug that will suppress puberty so the child has time to choose their gender when they are older.

It is the same treatment for children with precocious puberty.

For a long time I had thought that suppressing puberty would be proper thing to do. By the time a person goes through puberty, his or her chance of a successful transition becomes much more difficult. Suppressing puberty would give them a better chance at a successful transition while waiting to be of age to be "allowed" to make the transition.

 

[JWideman]

Teens don't shower in high school anymore unless they are on a team. In that event it would be similar to a girl being on an all-boy team.

 

[Lithrael]

It's probably telling as far as my own gender attitudes that when I see a M-to-F transgender I pretty much automatically accept it but when I see an F-to-M transgender it takes a little convincing to make me feel sure they are a dude and not a girl who thinks it sucks to be a girl and that it would kick a lot more butt to be a dude.

Maybe I've just met too many girls that don't like that fact that they are girls and don't want to be like girls because of what it means to be a girl in this society. A lot of the stereotypes are pretty appalling, after all. Myself, it always pisses me off when I really feel like sitting down and having a good cry just because I'm a little stressed out, cause it's such a horribly girly thing to do. That sort of thing. And since I don't have a strong attachment to my own gender it's not easy for me to see making 'the transgender decision' as such a huge milestone that you would never make that choice for any reason besides actual gender dysphoria. (Oh, to be a guy! People would stop accusing me of preferring to hang out with guys only because guys will be friendly to me without effort on my part because I'm a girl! I could hang out with guys without worrying they are only being friendly to me because I'm a girl! I could lift heavy objects! I'd be more employable! Nobody would call me lazy for not wearing makeup!) I'm probably projecting.

 

[Newtons Bit]

Teens don't shower in high school anymore unless they are on a team. In that event it would be similar to a girl being on an all-boy team.

Whoa. Ladybugs flashback.

 

[SumDood]

Yes strangely enough, little girls are more often to like dolls and little boys more often to like trucks, it's a part of our biology.

I've never bought this. Seems more likely to me that boys are given 'masculine' toys since birth and therefore develop a preference. And the same goes for girls with 'feminine' toys. To truly test this, one would have to only allow 'gender neutral' toys until a child is old enough to be tested for a preference.

Transgendered children never change their mind about sexuality. This is a clinical diagnosis and it doesn't go away. It's not as if the child on a whim decides he wants to be LIKE a girl. He feels he is a girl, it's different.

Different enough for a 10 year old to understand? It just seems to be a much too complex issue for a child that young to comprehend. How would you explain to a male child the differences between being a girl trapped in a boy's body, being homosexual or being an effeminate straight male? How could someone be so sure which one their child will turn out to be at such a young age?

 

[Arcade22]

It's still a surprise to me to learn that some schools have showers for their pupils.

Why? Is cleanliness a luxury in Britain?

Why design anything so that people have to get changed in a communal changing-room?

Most shower rooms are like that in Sweden. In schools, gyms, swimming halls, jobs and so on. Why? Because it saves time and money.

Might shut up a lot of this "mine's smaller than his help I'm inferior" stuff we hear from the males.

I never recalled anyone ever talking about that in the locker rooms...

I've never bought this. Seems more likely to me that boys are given 'masculine' toys since birth and therefore develop a preference. And the same goes for girls with 'feminine' toys.

AFAIK they have done studies like that on children and girls more or less instinctively choose to play with dolls (feminine toys) and boys play with more masculine one. They have even done a study like that on monkeys:

Researchers have reported some of the first evidence that chimpanzee youngsters in the wild may tend to play differently depending on their sex, just as human children around the world do. Although both young male and female chimpanzees play with sticks, females do so more often, and they occasionally treat them like mother chimpanzees caring for their infants, according to a study in the December 21st issue of Current Biology, a Cell Press publication.

The findings suggest that the consistently greater tendency, across all cultures, for girls to play more with dolls than boys do is not just a result of sex-stereotyped socialization, the researchers say, but rather comes partly from "biological predilections."

"This is the first evidence of an animal species in the wild in which object play differs between males and females," said Richard Wrangham of Harvard University.

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2010-12/cp-yfc121510.php

 

[L.Y.S.]

Can anyone find a non-biased study on the prevalence of transgender identity in nature? I'm just curious to see if humans are the only ones who go through these sorts of things.

 

[sarge]

It's still a surprise to me to learn that some schools have showers for their pupils.

I don't have much need to be in a school anymore, but I've never known a school that did not have showers for pupils. There is a need for showers. Not having them would be the strange condition.

Why design anything so that people have to get changed in a communal changing-room? Might shut up a lot of this "mine's smaller than his help I'm inferior" stuff we hear from the males. Even better, end the excuse for male genital mutilation that an intact boy might be embarrassed in the changing rooms.

Rolfe.

Or, just change individuals perceptions about modesty and end any expectation of privacy. I mean, as long as we are wishing.

If the school in question can come up with a solution to the unfortunate situation this young person faces without forcing other students to make accomodations, then I'm in. School is hard enough as it is. No child should be forced to share restrooms with members of the opposite sex, and no child should face scrutiny such as this.

 

[iknownothing]

I don't have much need to be in a school anymore, but I've never known a school that did not have showers for pupils. There is a need for showers. Not having them would be the strange condition.

I never had showers at school. It seems really strange to me.

If the school in question can come up with a solution to the unfortunate situation this young person faces without forcing other students to make accomodations, then I'm in. School is hard enough as it is. No child should be forced to share restrooms with members of the opposite sex, and no child should face scrutiny such as this.

Why is it a problem if a boy uses the girls' restroom? Nobody is running around naked in there. The girls do their business in a stall, with a door shut.

 

[Arcade22]

At first I would think a person who is specifically attracted to transgendered women would be a godsend to these women. But it seems like there is more to the story with that.

I've heard transsexuals complain about 'chasers' who apparently are only interested in the fact that they look, or try to look, like women but still have a penis. I guess finding someone for casual sex would be easy, but building a good relationship on that doesn't exactly sound like a winning concept. And who is in more need of a good relationship with someone who actually cares about them and supports them?

I know personally that i probably couldn't like someone who starts getting surgery the same way as before. I mean cross-dressing is hot and sexy (as long as you don't look like you're on The Rocky Horror Show) but it's just not the same when they start getting boobs, vaginas and so on.

Strangely, i wasn't exactly turned off when i saw a girl (although i don't know if she was a transsexual or not) that was IMO indistinguishable from a guy. I originally though 'he' was just a typical gay skinny emoish teen boy (and i wasn't the only one) but then i saw more photos that 'he' or 'his' boyfriend had taken and then i saw 'his' vagina. I guess we could play a game of pretend...

 

[quadraginta]

<snip>

Different enough for a 10 year old to understand? It just seems to be a much too complex issue for a child that young to comprehend. How would you explain to a male child the differences between being a girl trapped in a boy's body, being homosexual or being an effeminate straight male? How could someone be so sure which one their child will turn out to be at such a young age?

I think you may underestimate the cognitive abilities of children. They may not comprehend in a way adults agree with (i.e. "right" or "wrong") and they may not attach the same significance or devote the same interest to areas of detail that adults do, but their world is no less rich or complex as a result of that. It may even be more so, since they don't yet have a stockpile of things to classify by category (stereotypes). Until they build such a stockpile everything is different.

This can be one reason that children don't always seem to comprehend things the way adults believe they ought to. They actually comprehend much more, and struggle with a complexity which adults have abandoned or eliminated from consideration by category. They are processing data that the adults have learned or chosen to disregard, sometimes quite subconsciously.

It isn't all about sexuality in the sense of sexual urges, either. How old do you think the average child is by the time they make a distinction between "mommies" and "daddies"? How about brothers and sisters? Do you believe that ten years old is too early for them to be able to do that?

 

[Cavemonster]

I've never bought this. Seems more likely to me that boys are given 'masculine' toys since birth and therefore develop a preference. And the same goes for girls with 'feminine' toys. To truly test this, one would have to only allow 'gender neutral' toys until a child is old enough to be tested for a preference.

It's the monkey study that convinced me.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2583786/

 

[Dessi]

Dessi welcome to the board and thanks for sharing. I have been very intrigued by this topic for many years. I have heard about tranny chasers and I'm curious if you could share some insight on that.

At first I would think a person who is specifically attracted to transgendered women would be a godsend to these women. But it seems like there is more to the story with that.

In the support group I attended, one of the people who run a tg help line commented that, at least once every few weeks, some idiot calls to ask where he can find transsexuals for sex.

Tranny chasers are fetishists, pervs, regard transwomen as effectively "tranny-shaped dildos". Very dehumanizing and offensive, most tg women very strongly avoid these people.

I can sort of relate. I was a member of a long-hair community, we compliment each others hair, share tips, progress piccies and so on. Sooner or later a hair fetishist shows up, get the banhammer immediately. Not the sort of attention the community is looking for.

 

[Alt+F4]

Let me get this straight. You have a couple wanting to do a sex change operation to their 10-year-old child, and you are surprised people are shocked by this and consider it wrong?

Please link to a post in this thread or a link from a post in this thread that said anything about surgery on a 10-year old. Oh, that's right, you can't. Why do you bother posting when you don't even know what the thread is about?

 

[Dessi]

ty Dessi and truethat, you responded with what I had planned to, but probably would have done in a way that got me suspended. I hate uninformed peoiple making judgements, and ones that are telling me I have a mental disorder are worse.

*huggles lots*

So many haters. Makes me wonder if these sorts of people were the type to bully "fags" and "sissies" in high school. Hope they'll catch up with the rest of civilized society one day. Until then, 6M volt stun guns and pepper spray are inexpensive and invaluable for your personal safety.

 

[Alt+F4]

It's the monkey study that convinced me.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2583786/

Interesting, but I don't know how it applies if I'm understanding your argument correctly. Of the monkeys in the experiment none were infants and about half were adults or elderly. Their age and considering they lived in a primate research center says to me that their choice of toys very well could have been influenced by living in close contact with humans for much of their lives. Also, the study doesn't address what toys the older monkeys were given to play with when they were babies/juveniles.

 

[Earthborn]

People can be mentally stuck in so many different thinking patterns, including religions, phobias, compulsive obsessions, pedophilia, violence, whatever. My starting point is that the physical is the default position, and the psychological is a programmable unit. Psychology is a poorly developed science so far.

Psychology is a poorly developed science so far, which is why manipulating a person's mind is much harder than manipulating a person's body. The psychological is not a "programmable unit", far from it; and even if it were psychology as poorly developed as a science as it is so far doesn't provide us with the knowledge to program it. I think a medical treatment should try to fix a problem with the least invasive and best understood methods, and that doesn't include messing with the brain if that can be avoided.

If in the future treating transsexuals by manipulating their minds becomes as effective as treating them by manipulating their bodies, I think the starting point should be the patient's wishes, not some philosophical debate whether the "physical" or the "psychological" represents a person's "true identity".