Merged Apollo "hoax" discussion / Lick observatory laser saga

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From the page describing "The Journal"

"This 23 December 2010 release of the Journal contains all of the text for the six successful landing missions as well as many photos, maps, equipment drawings, background documents, voice tracks, and video clips which, we hope, will help make the lunar experience more accessible and understandable."

It seems to me that most people, having spotted one misleading comment in a newly issued version of a 40 year old report, would have pointed out the error to the writers, instead of suddenly deciding that the entire event never actually happened.
 
Don't try and squirm outta' this abaddon!

So I was right, it is just commentary, nothing from those involved.

Even if it is an innocent mistake by an editor, like when the editor added the qualifier "exactly" to Aldrin's statement that he did not know where he was, they still do not have the coordinates of Tranquility Base before the launch, they are off by 200 meters and 200 meters in this case may as well be a million miles.
 
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"The Journal is, in Neil Armstrong's words, a "living document". The Journal Update File details recent additions, changes and corrections. E-mail messages to honais@gamil.com."

You wonder what they will say when you point out the big, fat lie? I imagine they will say something like "thank you". The clue is in the fact that they have an email address to which you are invited to send corrections.
 
Even if it is an innocent mistake by an editor, like when the editor added the qualifier "exactly" to Aldrin's statement that he did not know where he was, they still do not have the coordinates of Tranquility Base before the launch, they are off by 220 meters and 200 meters in this case may as well be a million miles.

If 220m is too much, how accurate were they required to be? What error could they tolerate?

<edit> Oops. Make that 200m. Patrick edited it out from under me. I guess that means he was 20m out. Which in this case may as well be a million miles. For all the difference it makes.
 
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...they are off by 200 meters and 200 meters in this case may as well be a million miles.

I challenge you to explain why you would think this.

NOT more handwaving, NOT more garbage...an actual scientific explanation as to why you posted what you did.


edit to add...I'll be gone for about 4 hours, which should be sufficient time for you to post an answer.
 
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In the moons' gravity or earths'?

Entertainment value is a subjective thing that have to be measured here in Copenhagen, Earth. (It is/were falling at 1G.)
It is not dependent of local gravity of whatever planet, moon, or cloud Patric is on.
 
Even if it is an innocent mistake by an editor, like when the editor added the qualifier "exactly" to Aldrin's statement that he did not know where he was, they still do not have the coordinates of Tranquility Base before the launch, they are off by 200 meters and 200 meters in this case may as well be a million miles.

"squirm outta this"?

I'm not the one posting baseless fantasy, you are.

What were the tolerances, and prove that 200m could not be accommodated for CM/LM rendevous.
 
"squirm outta this"?

I'm not the one posting baseless fantasy, you are.

What were the tolerances, and prove that 200m could not be accommodated for CM/LM rendevous.

He shouldn't have any problem with that as the mechanics of rendezvous have been explained repeatedly to his previous incarnations.
 
Mission Report 11.1.3 does not support your interpretation Jack by the hedge

Apollo 11 Mission report section 11-6:

"11.1.3 Analysis of Transmitted Geologic Data
Location of the landing site.- The landing site was tentatively identified
during the lunar surface stay on the basis of observations transmitted
by the crew.
...
A description by the Commander of a double
crater about 6 to 12 meters in size and south of the lunar module shadow
plus the identification of West crater, the hill to the west, and the 21-
to 24-meter crater reported behind the lunar module, formed a unique pattern
from which the landing site was determined to within about 8 meters.
...
The returned sequence-camera descent photography
confirmed the landing point location.
The position corresponds to coordinates
0 degree 41 minutes 15 seconds north latitude and 23 degrees
26 minutes 0 second east longitude."


(My highlighting.) Back to square one, it appears.

Mission Report 11.1.3 does not support your interpretation Jack by the hedge, specifically does not support your contention that that the landing site coordinates were determined before the Eagle's launch. Your quote references a report made by Armstrong in real-time, while he was allegedly on the lunar surface, but its analysis was not carried out until after the astronauts' returned to earth.

The discussion in section 11.1.3 of the Mission Report most certainly does not support the claim that the Eagle's landing site, Tranquility Base, was identified as being located at 00 41 15 north and 23 26 00 east in real time, that is, located at those coordinates prior too the Eagle's alleged launch from the surface of the moon.

Here are the relevant texts from the Apollo 11 Voice Transcript and the Apollo 11 Mission Report; section 11.1.3(both documents are quoted below). With regard to the latter document(Mission Report section 11.1.3), no where in the text/discussion of real-time coordinate determination does one find the coordinates, 00 41 15 north and 23 26 00 east, and so, with regard to the discussion of the "landing site" as below, we are correct in finding this "landing site description" to be a reference to a general area near the West Crater. Specific landing site coordinates are not mentioned anywhere in this section, except with reference to their post flight determination. As a matter of fact, the document refers the reader to the very section (5) which includes the table I have been drawing our readers' attention to, Table 5-IV, where the only appearance of Tranquility Base coordinates occur for the accelerometer reconstruction and the 16mm photography analysis, both post flight assessments, both determinations made long after the astronauts "returned to the earth".

All of the specific landing site coordinates are found in table 5-IV of this same Mission Report. The real-time solutions do not include 00 41 15 north and 23 26 00 east. We may conclude with confidence that the description below of the landing site's general area, is just that, a description of the landing site's general area. The coordinates 00 41 15 north and 23 26 00 east were not obtained in real time as confirmed by the ongoing discussion of the true coordinates(still wrong by the way) mentioned in the Voice Transcript as the astronauts are alleged to be returning to earth AFTER the landing. Again that quote from the Apollo 11 Voice Transcript;

"TIME 06 07 33 59

"CC: Roger. For 64 thousand dollars, we're still trying to work out the location of your landing site, Tranquility Base. We think it is located on LAM-2 chart at Juliet 0.5 and 7.8. Do you still have those charts on board? Over.

Armstrong: Yes. Stand by one. They're packed.

CC: Roger. You may not have to unpack it. The position which I just gave you is slightly west of West Crater. I guess it's about two-tenths
 of a kilometer west of it, and we were wondering if Neil or Buzz had observed any additional landmarks during descent, lunar stay, or ascent which would confirm or disprove this. One thing that we're wondering about is that if you were at this position, you would have seen the Cat's Paduring ascent just up to the north of your track. Over.

Armstrong: We were looking for the Cat's Paw, too, thinking we were probably downrange, beyond the Big V. But I think that it's likely that that might have been West Crater that we went across in landing, but - Stand by.

Armstrong: We're hoping, Bruce, that our 16-mm film was working at that point in descent, and we'll be able to confirm our touchdown position. We thought that during ascent we might be able to pick up some recognizable objects close to the landing site, and we did see a number of small craters, and crater rows, and things like that, which we may be able to pick out after the fact, but we haven't been able to yet." "

So on the way back to earth, after the launch, the cap com/Houston trajectory personal, believe Tranquility Base to be at Juliet 0.5 and 7.8. In Juliet coordinates, Tranquility Base is 0.65/7.54. So a day after the EVA, they still do not know where Tranquility Base is, and this reading confirms the prior assessment that the 11.1.3 Mission Report discussion is a discussion of the general landing site area, a relatively unknown area near west crater. The descriptive report is quoted below, word for ford from the Mission Report. Again, note how the reader is referred to section 5 for the actual numbers, and again, 00 41 15 north and 23 26 00 east does not appear in that table except in the form of coordinates obtained by way of post flight analysis, 16mm photography study and accelerometer reconstruction.

As I have pointed out previously, the real-time coordinates closest to Tranquility Base appearing in the Apollo 11 Mission Report table 5-IV are the rendezvous radar coordinates 0.676 north and 23.43 east. Close to Tranquility Base which is expressed in this coordinate form as 0.6875 and 23.505. So the rendezvous radar is close, but still 1200 feet away give or take from Tranquility Base at 0.6875= 00 41 15 north and 23.505= 23 26 00 east.

"11.1.3 Analysis of Transmitted Geologic Data

Location of the landing site.

The landing site was tentatively identified during the lunar surface stay on the basis of observations transmitted by the crew. The Commander reported avoiding a blocky crater the size of a football field during landing, and observed a hill that he estimated to be from 1/2 to 1 mile west of the lunar module. The lunar module was tilted 4.5 degrees east (backward) on the lunar surface.

During the first command and service module pass after lunar module landing (about 1 to 1-1/2 hours after landing), the first of several different landing site locations, computed from the onboard computer and from tracking data, was transmitted to the Command Module Pilot for visual search (see section 5.5). The first such estimate of the landing site was northwest of the planned landing ellipse. The only site near this computed location that could have matched the reported description was near North crater at the northwest boundary of the landing ellipse. However, this region did not match the description very closely.

Later, computed estimates indicated the landing site was considerably south of the earlier determination, and the areas near the West crater most closely fit the description. These data were transmitted to the Command Module Pilot on the last pass before lunar module lift-off, but the Command Module Pilot's activities at this time did not permit visual search. The location just west of West crater was confirmed by rendezvous radar tracking of the command module by the lunar module near the end of the lunar stay period and by the descent photography."
 
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This is not a real time , but a post flight photographic determination

Apollo 11 Mission report section 11-6:

"11.1.3 Analysis of Transmitted Geologic Data
Location of the landing site.- The landing site was tentatively identified
during the lunar surface stay on the basis of observations transmitted
by the crew.
...
A description by the Commander of a double
crater about 6 to 12 meters in size and south of the lunar module shadow
plus the identification of West crater, the hill to the west, and the 21-
to 24-meter crater reported behind the lunar module, formed a unique pattern
from which the landing site was determined to within about 8 meters.
...
The returned sequence-camera descent photography
confirmed the landing point location.
The position corresponds to coordinates
0 degree 41 minutes 15 seconds north latitude and 23 degrees
26 minutes 0 second east longitude."


(My highlighting.) Back to square one, it appears.

This is ALL POST FLIGHT ANALYSIS! NOT RELEVANT!

"A description by the Commander of a double crater about 6 to 12 meters in size and south of the lunar module shadow plus the identification of West crater, the hill to the west, and the 21- to 24-meter crater reported behind the lunar module, formed a unique pattern from which the landing site was determined to within about 8 meters. The 21 to 24 meter crater has been since identified by photometry as being 33 meters in diameter. The returned sequence-camera descent photography confirmed the landing point location. The position corresponds to coordinates 0 degree 41 minutes 15 seconds north latitude and 23 degrees 26 minutes 0 second east longitude on figure 5-10."


Armstrong made the description in real time, true, but the coordinates were determined POST FLIGHT!!!!!!!!
 
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Pretending the Lick scientists did on the night of the landing what everyone knows they did not do until over a week and a half later. Get a grip.

You are lying now. NBC reported it by mistake.

The experirements officer watching TV presumably, passed this on to the flight director - it's in the transcript.. How you can claim it was NASA asserting a successful return is just total BS.
 
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You are referencing real time data collection and post flight analysis

Apollo 11 Mission report section 11-6:

"11.1.3 Analysis of Transmitted Geologic Data
Location of the landing site.- The landing site was tentatively identified
during the lunar surface stay on the basis of observations transmitted
by the crew.
...
A description by the Commander of a double
crater about 6 to 12 meters in size and south of the lunar module shadow
plus the identification of West crater, the hill to the west, and the 21-
to 24-meter crater reported behind the lunar module, formed a unique pattern
from which the landing site was determined to within about 8 meters.
...
The returned sequence-camera descent photography
confirmed the landing point location.
The position corresponds to coordinates
0 degree 41 minutes 15 seconds north latitude and 23 degrees
26 minutes 0 second east longitude."


(My highlighting.) Back to square one, it appears.
Jack by the hedge,

You are referencing the very post flight analysis of Donald Beattie and his Lunar Science colleagues. The analysis in which they sought to "find the Eagle" by way of photographic and flight data study.

Yes the descriptions and data were relayed in real time, but no one knew where the astronauts were until after. That data, and in particular the 16mm data and accelerometer reconstruction, was not looked at until the astronauts returned.

Likewise, Armstrong's anecdotal descriptions did not lead to a "real-time solution". Donald Beattie again;

"The samples, which had arrived before the astronauts, were carefully opened in the LRL, inventoried, and briefly described. In the meantime we were monitoring the signals sent back by the passive seismic experiment and attempting to find the LRRR that the astronauts had left behind. This latter operation was not as easy as we expected, since the exact location of the landing site was not immediately known. Mike Collins had attempted unsuccessfully to locate the LM from orbit using the command module sextant. After analyzing the flight data and the returned photographs, we passed our best estimate to the LRRR PIs, and the LRRR was found on August 1, 1969, by the Lick Observatory in California."

Donald A. Beattie. Taking Science to the Moon: Lunar Experiments and the Apollo Program (ebook Locations 2911-2915).

This is what you are referencing Jack by the hedge, not a real-time solution.
 
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Anyone else noticed that when Patrick is shown to be clearly wrong his responses get longer and with more capslock shouting? Disappointing to note that despite having the mechanics of orbital rendezvous explained to his various sockpuppets that none of it has sunk in. He still thinks(or perhaps pretends to)that they needed to know the surface position of the LM practically to the millimetre to dock with the CSM after take off.
 
A very short one for you Garrison, debunk this.

Anyone else noticed that when Patrick is shown to be clearly wrong his responses get longer and with more capslock shouting? Disappointing to note that despite having the mechanics of orbital rendezvous explained to his various sockpuppets that none of it has sunk in. He still thinks(or perhaps pretends to)that they needed to know the surface position of the LM practically to the millimetre to dock with the CSM after take off.


A very short one for you Garrison, debunk this. From the Armstrong Voice Transcript quote above, with reference to identifying the exact landing site coordinates, CAPITALS MINE;

"06 07 36 22

"Armstrong: We're HOPING, Bruce, that our 16-mm film WAS WORKING at that point in descent, and we'll be able to confirm our touchdown position. We thought that during ascent we might be able to pick up some recognizable objects close to the landing site, and we did see a number of small craters, and crater rows, and things like that, which we may be able to pick out AFTER THE FACT, but we HAVEN"T BEEEN ABLE TO YET." "

Armstrong is in cislunar space, day 6, long after the "Eagle's launch
 
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If we take it that Julliet 0.5/7.7 is NASA's best estimate of the LM's position while they're still on the moon, maybe we could turn our attention to the coordinates provided to Lick for a moment.

I may have missed some link or other, but as far as I recall, the coordinates provided, and the dates involved are only referenced by a story written decades after the event (which must surely have involved the writer looking the actual numbers up in some reference or other) bolstered by an anecdote which revolves around a misheard "fifteen" being transcribed as "fifty".

Is that really the best documentation which exists for Lick observatory's part in the Apollo 11 mission?
 
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