So that means you're not going to square those two quotes for me? You can't handle a half-duplex, multiple point discussion? You can only focus on one thing to the exclusion of all others?
C'mon, I thought better of you.
Merged Apollo "hoax" discussion / Lick observatory laser saga
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So that means you're not going to square those two quotes for me? You can't handle a half-duplex, multiple point discussion? You can only focus on one thing to the exclusion of all others?
C'mon, I thought better of you.
Jack by the hedge
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Thank you Patrick.
That wasn't so hard, was it? How long need it have taken for you to address the point?
You have now reached the stage where I might actually read the trajectory report instead of just pointing out internal inconsistencies in the stuff you post.
That wasn't so hard, was it? How long need it have taken for you to address the point?
You have now reached the stage where I might actually read the trajectory report instead of just pointing out internal inconsistencies in the stuff you post.
Patrick1000
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Duty calls SUSpilot
Tell ya' what, will do your questions next time I get on regardless of the trajectory stuff which obviously heated up big time, OK. Got to work, sorry.
Tell ya' what, will do your questions next time I get on regardless of the trajectory stuff which obviously heated up big time, OK. Got to work, sorry.
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Good of you to admit that you change the subject to avoid answering questions. (Not that we hadn't noticed, course)
I had wondered if that was what was going on.
Patrick1000
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There is no deliberate ambiguity going on here.
There is no deliberate ambiguity going on here. That claim is absurd! Reporters are not gathered at Lick Observatory while the astronauts are flying through cislunar space, they are there at the observatory after the "landing" and before the "launch". What kind of jive are you 2 trying to pull with this implication? There is absolutely nothing ambiguous about my claim.
After the astronauts were said to have landed, they were said to have placed an LRRR on the surface of the moon. Very shortly after that alleged placement and well before the Eagle's launch, the exact coordinates of that LRRR were given to Joseph Wampler at Lick Observatory and Professor Wampler and his staff proceeded to try and successfully target the LRRR.
Their efforts that evening were not successful and as events would prove, this turned out to be because there was a timing problem with the Lick Observatory LRRR experiment software. However, it should be emphasized , the landing coordinates they were given were more than good, they were precise.
These very coordinates were not known by the Apollo Program at large until 08/01/1969, 11 days after the landing. This simple fact demonstrates trajectory /landing site foreknowledge and telemetry fraud.
Never once did I suggest Wampler had these coordinates before the Saturn V launch and no one else read my claims this way.
Sorry SUSpilot, I could not let that go. Next post is for you, but that was ridiculous and sort of made me a little angry.
There is no deliberate ambiguity going on here. That claim is absurd! Reporters are not gathered at Lick Observatory while the astronauts are flying through cislunar space, they are there at the observatory after the "landing" and before the "launch". What kind of jive are you 2 trying to pull with this implication? There is absolutely nothing ambiguous about my claim.
After the astronauts were said to have landed, they were said to have placed an LRRR on the surface of the moon. Very shortly after that alleged placement and well before the Eagle's launch, the exact coordinates of that LRRR were given to Joseph Wampler at Lick Observatory and Professor Wampler and his staff proceeded to try and successfully target the LRRR.
Their efforts that evening were not successful and as events would prove, this turned out to be because there was a timing problem with the Lick Observatory LRRR experiment software. However, it should be emphasized , the landing coordinates they were given were more than good, they were precise.
These very coordinates were not known by the Apollo Program at large until 08/01/1969, 11 days after the landing. This simple fact demonstrates trajectory /landing site foreknowledge and telemetry fraud.
Never once did I suggest Wampler had these coordinates before the Saturn V launch and no one else read my claims this way.
Sorry SUSpilot, I could not let that go. Next post is for you, but that was ridiculous and sort of made me a little angry.
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Jack by the hedge
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Apollo 11 Mission report section 11-6:
"11.1.3 Analysis of Transmitted Geologic Data
Location of the landing site.- The landing site was tentatively identified
during the lunar surface stay on the basis of observations transmitted
by the crew.
...
A description by the Commander of a double
crater about 6 to 12 meters in size and south of the lunar module shadow
plus the identification of West crater, the hill to the west, and the 21-
to 24-meter crater reported behind the lunar module, formed a unique pattern
from which the landing site was determined to within about 8 meters.
...
The returned sequence-camera descent photography
confirmed the landing point location. The position corresponds to coordinates
0 degree 41 minutes 15 seconds north latitude and 23 degrees
26 minutes 0 second east longitude."
(My highlighting.) Back to square one, it appears.
"11.1.3 Analysis of Transmitted Geologic Data
Location of the landing site.- The landing site was tentatively identified
during the lunar surface stay on the basis of observations transmitted
by the crew.
...
A description by the Commander of a double
crater about 6 to 12 meters in size and south of the lunar module shadow
plus the identification of West crater, the hill to the west, and the 21-
to 24-meter crater reported behind the lunar module, formed a unique pattern
from which the landing site was determined to within about 8 meters.
...
The returned sequence-camera descent photography
confirmed the landing point location. The position corresponds to coordinates
0 degree 41 minutes 15 seconds north latitude and 23 degrees
26 minutes 0 second east longitude."
(My highlighting.) Back to square one, it appears.
matt.tansy
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Awesome find, Jack! I searched the mission report for that info but could not find it. Great job!
When Dr. Socks repeats his nonsense I'm going to quote your post over and over again. If that doesn't convince the fence sitters Dr. Socks is a fraud, nothing will.
There are fence sitters?
Patrick1000
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Either flat out incorrect or contraindicated by the Apollo 11 Voice Transcript
This is from "day 6" of the Voice Transcript. The astronauts are traveling toward the earth and are days from splashdown. The landing is long behind them and neither the astronauts, nor the Houston staff know where the landing site is located. As a matter of fact, it is the "64 thousand dollar question".
Time 06 07 26 06
CC: Roger. For 64 thousand dollars, we're still trying to work out the location of your landing site, Tranquility Base. We think it is located on LAM-2 chart at Juliet 0.5 and 7.8. Do you still have those charts on board? Over.
Armstrong: Yes. Stand by one. They're packed.
CC: Roger. You may not have to unpack it. The position which I just gave you is slightly westof West Crater. I guess it's about two-tenths of a kilometer west of it, and we were wondering if Neil or Buzz had observed any additional land marks during descent, lunar stay, or ascent which would confirm or disprove this. One thing that we're wondering about is that if you were at this position, you would have seen the Cat's Paw during ascent just up to the north of your track. Over.
Armstrong: We were looking for the Cat's Paw, too, thinking we were probably downrange, beyond the Big V. But I think that it's likely that that might have been West Crater that we went across in landing, but - Stand by.
Armstrong: We're hoping, Bruce, that our 16-mm film was working at that point in descent, and we'll be able to confirm our touchdown position. We thought that during ascent we might be able to pick up some recognizable objects close to the landing site, and we did see a number of small craters, and crater rows, and things like that, which we may be able to pick out after the fact, but we haven't been able to yet.
This is from "day 6" of the Voice Transcript. The astronauts are traveling toward the earth and are days from splashdown. The landing is long behind them and neither the astronauts, nor the Houston staff know where the landing site is located. As a matter of fact, it is the "64 thousand dollar question".
Time 06 07 26 06
CC: Roger. For 64 thousand dollars, we're still trying to work out the location of your landing site, Tranquility Base. We think it is located on LAM-2 chart at Juliet 0.5 and 7.8. Do you still have those charts on board? Over.
Armstrong: Yes. Stand by one. They're packed.
CC: Roger. You may not have to unpack it. The position which I just gave you is slightly westof West Crater. I guess it's about two-tenths of a kilometer west of it, and we were wondering if Neil or Buzz had observed any additional land marks during descent, lunar stay, or ascent which would confirm or disprove this. One thing that we're wondering about is that if you were at this position, you would have seen the Cat's Paw during ascent just up to the north of your track. Over.
Armstrong: We were looking for the Cat's Paw, too, thinking we were probably downrange, beyond the Big V. But I think that it's likely that that might have been West Crater that we went across in landing, but - Stand by.
Armstrong: We're hoping, Bruce, that our 16-mm film was working at that point in descent, and we'll be able to confirm our touchdown position. We thought that during ascent we might be able to pick up some recognizable objects close to the landing site, and we did see a number of small craters, and crater rows, and things like that, which we may be able to pick out after the fact, but we haven't been able to yet.
Patrick1000
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Please note, the 16 mm film was not analyzable until after the return to earth
The 16 mm film was not analyzable until after the return to earth. Also note, the coordinates used for the launch were not 00 41 15 north and 23 26 00 east. Rather, they were the rendezvous radar coordinates which were the best real-time solution available. you will find several versions of those coordinate numbers in the various records, none of which are 00 41 15 north and 23 26 00 east.
The 16 mm film was not analyzable until after the return to earth. Also note, the coordinates used for the launch were not 00 41 15 north and 23 26 00 east. Rather, they were the rendezvous radar coordinates which were the best real-time solution available. you will find several versions of those coordinate numbers in the various records, none of which are 00 41 15 north and 23 26 00 east.
Patrick1000
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Aldrin does not know where he is
From the Lunar surface Journal. Note Aldrin's statement was "even though nobody knew where we were". An editor added (exactly). Why ever for? Even with that modifier exactly, it negates your claim, because 00 41 15 north and 23 26 00 east is EXACTLY Tranquility Base.
102:19:54 Duke: Rog. Copy. Looks great.
[Comm Break, with static during most of the last minute.]
[The LM computer takes actions designated as Verbs, while Nouns are data. The PGNS and AGS both integrate accelerations to estimate the spacecraft velocities. The PGNS uses data from the inertial platform and the AGS uses less accurate data from body-mounted accelerometers.]
[Aldrin - "Somewhere, we had a state vector (three-axis position and velocity) update because of the tracking data that Houston got once we came around. But, how that happened and whether we were aware of it, I don't remember. I know that a lot of people got credit for developing the tracking filter that allowed them to do that. That neat capability contributed to the accuracy of our touchdown, even though nobody knew (exactly) where we were."]
From the Lunar surface Journal. Note Aldrin's statement was "even though nobody knew where we were". An editor added (exactly). Why ever for? Even with that modifier exactly, it negates your claim, because 00 41 15 north and 23 26 00 east is EXACTLY Tranquility Base.
102:19:54 Duke: Rog. Copy. Looks great.
[Comm Break, with static during most of the last minute.]
[The LM computer takes actions designated as Verbs, while Nouns are data. The PGNS and AGS both integrate accelerations to estimate the spacecraft velocities. The PGNS uses data from the inertial platform and the AGS uses less accurate data from body-mounted accelerometers.]
[Aldrin - "Somewhere, we had a state vector (three-axis position and velocity) update because of the tracking data that Houston got once we came around. But, how that happened and whether we were aware of it, I don't remember. I know that a lot of people got credit for developing the tracking filter that allowed them to do that. That neat capability contributed to the accuracy of our touchdown, even though nobody knew (exactly) where we were."]
Jack by the hedge
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None of that is inconsistent with a tentative identification of the landing site from observation, which is later shown to be accurate.
As you have told us, Lick observatory did not manage to target the LRRR site until several days later, due to an error of their own, so that transcript you quoted is from when NASA had no confirmation that they had correctly identified the landing site and nobody knew why.
No inconsistency. No fraud. Your house of cards blows away.
As you have told us, Lick observatory did not manage to target the LRRR site until several days later, due to an error of their own, so that transcript you quoted is from when NASA had no confirmation that they had correctly identified the landing site and nobody knew why.
No inconsistency. No fraud. Your house of cards blows away.
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Patrick1000
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Apollo lunar scientist Donald Beattie and colleagues looked for the Eagle
Apollo lunar scientist Donald Beattie and colleagues looked for the Eagle long after its return. If they had 00 41 15 north and 23 26 00 east on day 1, why does Beattie make this claim;
The samples, which had arrived before the astronauts, were carefully opened in the LRL, inventoried, and briefly described. In the meantime we were monitoring the signals sent back by the passive seismic experiment and attempting to find the LRRR that the astronauts had left behind. This latter operation was not as easy as we expected, since the exact location of the landing site was not immediately known. Mike Collins had attempted unsuccessfully to locate the LM from orbit using the command module sextant. After analyzing the flight data and the returned photographs, we passed our best estimate to the LRRR PIs, and the LRRR was found on August 1, 1969, by the Lick Observatory in California.
Donald A. Beattie. Taking Science to the Moon: Lunar Experiments and the Apollo Program (ebook Locations 2911-2915).
If they have 00 41 15 north and 23 26 00 east, why is Collins looking for the Eagle with his sextant and never finding it? Looking in the incorrect coordinate squares no less.
Apollo lunar scientist Donald Beattie and colleagues looked for the Eagle long after its return. If they had 00 41 15 north and 23 26 00 east on day 1, why does Beattie make this claim;
The samples, which had arrived before the astronauts, were carefully opened in the LRL, inventoried, and briefly described. In the meantime we were monitoring the signals sent back by the passive seismic experiment and attempting to find the LRRR that the astronauts had left behind. This latter operation was not as easy as we expected, since the exact location of the landing site was not immediately known. Mike Collins had attempted unsuccessfully to locate the LM from orbit using the command module sextant. After analyzing the flight data and the returned photographs, we passed our best estimate to the LRRR PIs, and the LRRR was found on August 1, 1969, by the Lick Observatory in California.
Donald A. Beattie. Taking Science to the Moon: Lunar Experiments and the Apollo Program (ebook Locations 2911-2915).
If they have 00 41 15 north and 23 26 00 east, why is Collins looking for the Eagle with his sextant and never finding it? Looking in the incorrect coordinate squares no less.
Patrick1000
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00 41 15 north and 23 26 00 east is not a tea-time option
00 41 15 north and 23 26 00 east is not a real-time option. those coordinates are not listed as real-time options in the landing site coordinate table 5-IV of the Mission Report, nor the Trajectroy Report table 7.11.
AND again to emphasize, 16mm film had to be analyzed on the return to earth. There was no detailed photography available until the return. There were no evaluable pictures. AND 00 41 15 north and 23 26 00 east was not identified by virtue of Armstrong's on site verbal descriptions, that is a known fact.
00 41 15 north and 23 26 00 east is not a real-time option. those coordinates are not listed as real-time options in the landing site coordinate table 5-IV of the Mission Report, nor the Trajectroy Report table 7.11.
AND again to emphasize, 16mm film had to be analyzed on the return to earth. There was no detailed photography available until the return. There were no evaluable pictures. AND 00 41 15 north and 23 26 00 east was not identified by virtue of Armstrong's on site verbal descriptions, that is a known fact.
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abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
At 4:03 P1K wrote:
But at 5:57 P1K wrote:
I wish I could get a job with shifts that short. Or perhaps you are working actually in that rich dudes house in Delhi.
I see you are still labouring under the fantasy James Bond notion of how lasers work.
Explain how Lick got no return until August 1st if they were given precise (according to you) co-ordinates before 20th July.
But at 5:57 P1K wrote:
I wish I could get a job with shifts that short. Or perhaps you are working actually in that rich dudes house in Delhi.
I see you are still labouring under the fantasy James Bond notion of how lasers work.
Explain how Lick got no return until August 1st if they were given precise (according to you) co-ordinates before 20th July.
Jack by the hedge
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Again, they thought (correctly as it turned out) they had identified the landing site by observation, but Lick failed to get LRRR confirmation at those coordinates.
No inconsistency.
No inconsistency.
Patrick1000
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Data transmitted on last pass
Wampler had the coordinates long before this. This is from the bogus 11.1.3 section of the Mission Report and despite the machinations, the astronauts and Houston do not have the landing site coordinates until just before launch. AND Armstrong does not look at that crater until right before he leaves the lunar surface and ends the EVA. So Wampler has the coordinates before "Armstrong looks at the crater". quote from 11.1.3, coordinates to crew before lift off and they were not by the way 00 41 15 north and 23 26 00 east.
"These data were transmitted to the Command Module Pilot on the last pass before lunar module lift-off, but the Command Mod- ule Pilot's activities at this time did not permit visual search. The location just west of West crater was confirmed by rendezvous radar track- ing of the command module by the lunar module near the end of the lunar stay period and by the descent photography."
Wampler had the coordinates long before this. This is from the bogus 11.1.3 section of the Mission Report and despite the machinations, the astronauts and Houston do not have the landing site coordinates until just before launch. AND Armstrong does not look at that crater until right before he leaves the lunar surface and ends the EVA. So Wampler has the coordinates before "Armstrong looks at the crater". quote from 11.1.3, coordinates to crew before lift off and they were not by the way 00 41 15 north and 23 26 00 east.
"These data were transmitted to the Command Module Pilot on the last pass before lunar module lift-off, but the Command Mod- ule Pilot's activities at this time did not permit visual search. The location just west of West crater was confirmed by rendezvous radar track- ing of the command module by the lunar module near the end of the lunar stay period and by the descent photography."
Jack by the hedge
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A Known Fact, eh? Well I guess if it's a Known Fact then that trumps the mere Apollo 11 Mission report talking about "A description by the Commander ...from which the landing site was determined to within about 8 meters."
I guess thay just made that up, then.
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