Could the very high rate of mental illness in Europe be related to religion decline?

[Mojo]

Mentally ill people ARE welcome in MANY churches...

Vulnerable people in general tend to be welcome in churches.

 

[Akhenaten]

This is exactly the sort of religiosity that DOC subscribes to...

No it isn't, why don't you let my posts do the talking.

Says the bloke who snipped of the pertinent part of the post that he's pretending to answer.

viz.

This is exactly the sort of religiosity that DOC subscribes to; the kind that also embraces a god that blithely snuffs out the lives of thousands, if not millions of faithful and faithless alike on a mere caprice.

I do indeed let your posts do the talking DOC. It's not my fault that what they say is vile.

 

[Akhenaten]

I don't understand your post, have i made you go defensive and bringing out a tactic i didn't even knew exist.

Ummm . . .

Deadmeat? or the opposite Buddhism and on a side note Atheism?

"It is better to not know Me, then to know Me and turn your back on Me" - your taking effort everyday in this regrade to scripture.

Quite frankly I'll be putting my money on nothing more than a general lack of understanding. I doubt that any special tactics on the part of your opponents need be invoked.

 

[joobz]

If you call the assertion OP makes a failure, then I call what follows a major collapse of reason on the part of the "critical thinkers" who have been incapable of producing a short and comprehensive data-based argument that would make the idea that absence of religion is a main contributing factor to the development of mental illness very unlikely.

Hi Epix,
Right now, Novest is doing his damndest to derail the thread, but I thought your post was well on topic, so I'd like to make some points:
you seem to be unable to find the meat of the argument here, so Let me summarize the arguments as they stand:
1.) The diseases being classified are extremely diverse.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=7547112#post7547112

The article includes diseases which have known well defined origins. For instance, mental retardation is often congenital, vascular dementia is the result of multiple strokes later in life, PTSD is the result of a traumatic event, sleep apnea’s primary cause is obesity. This fact alone makes the “loss of religion is the reason” argument even more difficult. You will need to show how that loss of religion causes all of those underlying conditions.
Simply put, the OP made a suggestion on extremely faulty grounds.
Now, to help you out. There is evidence suggesting religion helps prevent drug use.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=7550379#post7550379

2.) The data presented doesn’t even suggest that there would be a correlation. In fact, one person has already pointed out that when comparing apples to apples, the US ranks higher in mental illness than Europe. http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=7548371#post7548371

3.) Going one step further, here is another post which suggests that alternative explanations equally fit the data. http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=7555650#post7555650

Those are aren't the only ones, just the key arguments which have moved the thread forward.

You failed miserably in your criticism; you didn't move a finger to show that there is no significant correlation that would warrant the conclusion in OP. You only pointed out that there may be other causes to the observed, which is not enough to call someone's assumption a failure.

Actually, it is enough. In science, an author makes a hypothesis, devises an experiment to test that hypothesis and then report on the results observations. It is the reviewer’s job to see if the author’s conclusions logically fit the data. One of the reviewer’s KEY duties is to consider what alternative explanations may exist that also fit the data. If there are other issues, it is the author’s job to explain why their explanation is better than others.

 

[joobz]

Most of what I come across are emotional outbursts, ridicule, poor reasoning, ignorance and other signs which unmistakeably point toward the mob-spirited, anti-religion branch of atheism.

Let me paint you an alternative story and you tell me which one makes more sense.

After it was pointed out that the US had the highest mental illness rate, an argument which nullifies the OP:
DOC stated:

Actually you brought in a different link than the one I brought in in post # 1. Your link is from 2004 and the study is from 2001 - 2003. The link in post # 1 is from 2011. Also in your link it says the US has a rate of 26%. That is lower than the 38% for Europe (as a whole) in the link I brought in.

Here DOC compares two studies, which use completely different criteria. This was explained to him in the following post

Yes, but the two links are using different criteria for identifying mental illness, so can't be used as a comparison. The one that uses the same criteria for USA and European countries, and can therefore be used to compare the rates, found that the rate is higher in the USA.

Yet later, to another person, DOC repeats his arugment.

Bottom line is that almost 2 in 5 Europeans as of 2011 have some sort of mental illness according to the link in post #1. Show me a study that says as of 2011 almost 2 in 5 Americans have a mental illness.

Here DOC seems to think this value is high (yet he has no comparison to make with US data). However, I make the following answer to his request:

Here you go.
http://www.nimh.nih.gov/statistics/1ANYDIS_ADULT.shtml
46% of Americans will have had a DSM-IV disorder some time in their life. And this is by a narrower set of conditions than what was listed in your OP report.

To which, DOC states:

Were not talking about over a lifetime we are talking at any given time, they are very different figures.

50% of Americans might get a broken bone at some point in their lifetime. That is a very different figure than the figure of the number of Americans that have a broken bone at the current time.

In other words, DOC is fully aware of comparing APPLES to APPLES between studies and will use this argument when it benefits him. However, when this treatment hurts his argument, he turns a blind eye to it. This is a concrete example of standard practice of dishonesty in his presentation of data. This is what gets people mad. This is what brings out the derision.

ETA: DOC always suggests to let his posts speak for them. I think this exchange does so quite nicely.

 

[stokes234]

Someone may already have posted this, but -
http://www.equalitytrust.org.uk/why/evidence/mental-health

Mental health problems correlate reasonably closely in rich countries with inequality, with some anomalies.

 

[Professor Yaffle]

Someone may already have posted this, but -
http://www.equalitytrust.org.uk/why/evidence/mental-health

Mental health problems correlate reasonably closely in rich countries with inequality, with some anomalies.

I beat you to it again

 

[stokes234]

I beat you to it again

Blast. I'm off my game.

 

[Novest]

In the course of attributing to me a suggestion that I didn't make and persisting with the ridiculous assertion that atheism is a religion you've completely ignored the question that was asked in the post you're pretending to respond to.

Multifail.

Ok, whats atheism doing to help mental illness, since you believe its not a religion (even after i've provided a valid evidence to say someone who is atheist does by mistake)

 

[Foster Zygote]

Ok, whats atheism doing to help mental illness, since you believe its not a religion (even after i've provided a valid evidence to say someone who is atheist does by mistake)

That's like asking "what is not collecting stamps doing to help those with mental illness?".

Atheists can help to prevent/alleviate mental illness, but it is done using neuroscience, not atheism. Atheism, unlike many religions, doesn't pretend to solve all problems.

 

[Dave Rogers]

Ok, whats atheism doing to help mental illness,

Admitting that people who claim to hear the voice of God should be treated for it.

Dave

 

[kmortis]

This thread is undergoing routine maintenence. Until that is complete, please enjoy the New Moderated version.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: kmortis

 

[Edward Palamar]

Christ is with us, never let go of Him!

I was surprised to see just how high the figures for mental illness are in Europe.

(Original post's url)

I maintain that an increase in secularism and decrease in religiosity could be a major reason.

There is a great comment/response at the provided link :

QUOTE :

Mental illnesses aren't just bouts of the blues, or stomach flutters before an exam. They're not worrying about whether your boss liked your proposal or a bit of stage fright. Mental illness is not a personality trait, a flaw, or a quirk. They consume your every waking moment. Every breath, every step, every thought is affected. It's no joking matter. This isn't about people who may be a little off beat or a little different or deviate from "the norm." This is about people who can't get to work on time because they retrace their route seven times to make sure they didn't hit someone by accident and not notice/hear it. This is about people who are so ill they cannot get out of bed to play with their children no matter how badly they want to. It's about people who live every moment of their lives trapped in a feeling of deepest despair or utmost terror. These are not people who are weak, ungrateful, unproductive or any less important than any of you snobbish commenters. Mental illnesses are also not always lifetime sentences--some develop mid life, some develop early and go away. By some estimates, as many as 1 in 2 Americans will, at some point, experience symptoms severe enough to be classified as a mental disorder or illness. Just like with any disease, the fact that it may come or go is not an indicator of severity. Even cancer goes into remission, but it's always there.

So for those of us who struggle with these diseases, please don't be so crude. We're exactly like you. We're your coworkers who joke with you in the break room, we're the parents of your kid's friends who drink coffee with you, and we're your relatives--except that we're terrified to talk about this to anyone BECAUSE of people like you. We take our medicine, we go to work, we come home to our families. We're diabetics of the brain.

END QUOTE
***

 

[kmortis]

Ok, I had to move almost 250 posts off to AAH because they were off topic. The topic is religiousity vs. mental illness. The topic is not the definition of atheism, the SCOTUS, or DOC. If you want to discuss the first of those two, go find one of the other threads about them and post there. If you want to discuss the third, look me up and we'll go for beers.

Play nice, keep on topic. And don't make me pull this thread over to the side of the forum again, or you'll be REALLY sorry, young [man/woman/semi-intelligent shade of blue]!

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: kmortis

 

[Novest]

That's like asking "what is not collecting stamps doing to help those with mental illness?".

Atheists can help to prevent/alleviate mental illness, but it is done using neuroscience, not atheism. Atheism, unlike many religions, doesn't pretend to solve all problems.

Don't tell me, you just took science away from religion and claimed it as your own, like there are no scientist or doctors that have a religion. If you did, try again.

 

[stokes234]

Don't tell me, you just took science away from religion and claimed it as your own, like there are no scientist or doctors that have a religion. If you did, try again.

He didn't claim that all scientists that have contributed to neuroscience are atheists. He claimed that atheists can help and have helped alleviate mental illness by contributing to neuroscience.

 

[Sawbones79]

There is a great comment/response at the provided link :

QUOTE :

Mental illnesses aren't just bouts of the blues, or stomach flutters before an exam. They're not worrying about whether your boss liked your proposal or a bit of stage fright. Mental illness is not a personality trait, a flaw, or a quirk. They consume your every waking moment. Every breath, every step, every thought is affected. It's no joking matter. This isn't about people who may be a little off beat or a little different or deviate from "the norm." This is about people who can't get to work on time because they retrace their route seven times to make sure they didn't hit someone by accident and not notice/hear it. This is about people who are so ill they cannot get out of bed to play with their children no matter how badly they want to. It's about people who live every moment of their lives trapped in a feeling of deepest despair or utmost terror. These are not people who are weak, ungrateful, unproductive or any less important than any of you snobbish commenters. Mental illnesses are also not always lifetime sentences--some develop mid life, some develop early and go away. By some estimates, as many as 1 in 2 Americans will, at some point, experience symptoms severe enough to be classified as a mental disorder or illness. Just like with any disease, the fact that it may come or go is not an indicator of severity. Even cancer goes into remission, but it's always there.

So for those of us who struggle with these diseases, please don't be so crude. We're exactly like you. We're your coworkers who joke with you in the break room, we're the parents of your kid's friends who drink coffee with you, and we're your relatives--except that we're terrified to talk about this to anyone BECAUSE of people like you. We take our medicine, we go to work, we come home to our families. We're diabetics of the brain.

END QUOTE
***

[applauds]
That's a great way to put it, and expressing a panic attack as a "healthy hyperventilation" is just the opposite.

 

[TimCallahan]

Novest: Getting back to the OP, DOC suggested that the high rates of mental illness in Europe was caused by a decline in religion. We have pointed out the following:

1) The comparatively more religious U.S. has a higher rate of mental illness than does Europe as a whole.

2) Within Europe, and across the globe, taken country by country, there seems to be no correlation between rates of mental illness and level of religiosity.

3) While Canada and the U.S. have comparable levels church attendance, Canada's rate of mental illness is less than half that of the U.S.

4) In the study DOC cited, two of the major forms of mental illness were strokes and various senile dementias, such as Alzheimer's; i.e. they are physically based and have nothing to do with religion or the lack of it. Both strokes and senile dementias, being functions of old age, will be higher in the developed world, where there are greater numbers of people who make it into old age.

5) Mental illness is high in counties experiencing high rates of unemployment, cultural disruption and civil strife. The first two afflict the Ukraine; the last afflicts Lebanon.

6) Taken all in all, rates of mental illness seem to vary from one country to another based on specific idiosyncratic conditions. They seem to have nothing whatsoever to do with levels of religiosity. This is particularly true of the striking difference in rates of mental illness between the U.S. and Canada, two countries more culturally alike than most any others in the world and with comparable levels of church attendance.

7) There is nothing in what I've noted above that smacks of some "atheist religion." We've pointed all this out to DOC, who has essentially not responded to these objective facts. Since DOC hasn't responded to the objections raised against his OP, perhaps you'd like to give that a try.

 

[citizenzen]

Novest: Getting back to the OP, DOC suggested that the high rates of mental illness in Europe was caused by a decline in religion.

If as some have claimed, atheism is a religion, then is there really a decline in religion at all?

 

[six7s]

Novest: Getting back to the OP, DOC suggested that the high rates of mental illness in Europe was caused by a decline in religion.

If as some have claimed, atheism is a religion, then is there really a decline in religion at all?

Nominated!!11!!