Why not war against Islam?

[Bill Thompson]

What has that got to do with the opinion of one individual. We aren't talking about the actions of this man, we are talking about his opinion regarding his former religion.

The internet is given credit for the revolution in the mid east. All the internet did is spread opinions. And I doubt people will brush him off. He knows what he is talking about and is not just making it up.

I see it like the wikki leaks guy. The data comes right from the source.

Or like the abu graib photos.

By the way, I think you mean Thomas Paine, not Benjamin Franklin.

The invention of the lightening rod caused a stir in Europe and the USA. No longer did people have to just think that when lightening struck a building that its burning down was god's will and nothing could be done about it.

 

[Bill Thompson]

As a former Pentecostal, I can testify they really believe angels mated with humans and that the offspring were giants. There isn't anything in the Bible too silly for a Pentecostal to believe. They think they've got leeway on the stoning because modern law enforcement can handle juvenile delinqents now, but it was perfectly fine to stone children in biblical times.

If you don't think there are Christian Dominionists (Christianists, I call them) who favor the death penalty for homosexuality in America, you are mistaken. I don't fancy their chances of making it happen, but they have a much better chance of doing so than our tiny Muslim minority does of accomplishing anything comparable.

Do you have anything to back all this up? Is this how things are today?

It is off topic but still pretty interesting.

Now that you mention it. I just remembered I had some Church of Christ friends who seemed otherwise educated who told me they belived the giants thing.

The giants, by the way (according to PBS), were considered to be facts in biblical times because the Ancient Greeks found mastadon bones and arranged them to be huge humans since they never saw an elephant. The huge hole in the skull where the tusk came from was considered to be a huge eye socket.

 

[Bill Thompson]

Bill, please tell me that you are not claiming that there isn't a single college educated person among the one third of Americans who believe that the Bible is the literal word of God.

Show me one. Bring him here. have him join the conversation. It will be fun to have him participate. But do it for real. Don't register a new account as a different username and pretend to be one for kicks.

Better yet, show me the head of any of the major sects who proclaims that it is the literal word of God.

ETA: Ironically, most Muslim extremists are not well educated.

But all the 9-11 terrorists were. That kind of punches a whole in your theory.

Oh, and before I forget, tell me how this has to do with Islam or a war against Islam. Islam is not Christianity. It is also not a counter balance to Christianity. Talking down christianity does not make Islam magically raise up.

 

[Mister Agenda]

Christianity is not Islam.
So why do you even mentioin it?

I assume this is in reply to my second post above yours. You claimed that Christians don't regard the Bible the way many Muslims do, as the word of God, literal and inerrant. I was begging to differ, as millions of Christians in America avow that very thing.

 

[Bill Thompson]

I assume this is in reply to my second post above yours. You claimed that Christians don't regard the Bible the way many Muslims do, as the word of God, literal and inerrant. I was begging to differ, as millions of Christians in America avow that very thing.

No, it was a reply to Foster's post.

Just so you know, I did not start this whole christian angle. Don't assume I am here because I want to promote Christianity as a better way. The deal is this. I am being dragged kicking and screaming into this whole christian discussion. They bring it up. So I ask about it and give my views.

It is not very intellectually honest approach. I mean, if here was an anti-catholic web forum somewhere I would not think about joining it just to tell people how bad Islam is.

It is like, "Hey, let's find a discussion about cancer and hijack it and talk about heart disease"

 

[Mister Agenda]

Do you have anything to back all this up? Is this how things are today?

It is off topic but still pretty interesting.

Now that you mention it. I just remembered I had some Church of Christ friends who seemed otherwise educated who told me they belived the giants thing.

The giants, by the way (according to PBS), were considered to be facts in biblical times because the Ancient Greeks found mastadon bones and arranged them to be huge humans since they never saw an elephant. The huge hole in the skull where the tusk came from was considered to be a huge eye socket.

Look up 'inerrancy' or 'Pentecostal' on interwebz, plenty of verification there. The main thing that's changed about Pentecostalism from when I was a kid is that it's gone from scorning politics as focusing too much on 'this world', to being very political. Count most of them among the Rick Perry fans. My half-sister is still in it, and homeschooling her children. I haven't asked if she is abstaining from vaccinating her children like my Pentecostal step-sister-in-law has.

The ancients had physical evidence they didn't understand that they based their conjecture on, it's pretty understandable. Pentecostals and other inerrantists don't have that excuse, they believe it because the Bible tells them so.

 

[Lowpro]

No, it was a reply to Foster's post.

Just so you know, I did not start this whole christian angle. Don't assume I am here because I want to promote Christianity as a better way. The deal is this. I am being dragged kicking and screaming into this whole christian discussion. They bring it up. So I ask about it and give my views.

It is not very intellectually honest approach. I mean, if here was an anti-catholic web forum somewhere I would not think about joining it just to tell people how bad Islam is.

It is like, "Hey, let's find a discussion about cancer and hijack it and talk about heart disease"

Hardly, Xtianity gets brought up because you're lying by trying to place the Koran and Islam in a unique light. This statement fails because Xtianity outdoes Islam on all your claims of inhumanity. Again, you suffer temporal bias. Do you realize that?

You're the one who asserts Islam was unique, that somehow other religions (and what makes them evil) isn't similar to Islam. That's ridiculous, and what's MORE ridiculous is how hard you've made efforts to ignore it. You can't actually tackle the question; when you've tried you've failed miserably. So what did you do? Declared that you don't CARE about them, because you actually think your case is solid so long as you don't recognize the evidence against it.

It's intellectual dishonesty at its finest Bill.

 

[Mister Agenda]

No, it was a reply to Foster's post.

Just so you know, I did not start this whole christian angle. Don't assume I am here because I want to promote Christianity as a better way. The deal is this. I am being dragged kicking and screaming into this whole christian discussion. They bring it up. So I ask about it and give my views.

It is not very intellectually honest approach. I mean, if here was an anti-catholic web forum somewhere I would not think about joining it just to tell people how bad Islam is.

It is like, "Hey, let's find a discussion about cancer and hijack it and talk about heart disease"

I know it's not your intention to focus on Christianity. However, it's more like 'let's find a discussion about how cancer is worse than other diseases' and people comparing it to other diseases to determine if this is really the case. Remember, you could have judoed this whole Christian angle by saying 'yeah you're right, we should have a War on Christianity, too. You didn't have to try to make a case that Islam is worse than Christianity, it's what you've chosen to do.

I think a lot of the disagreement on this thread is superficial...when pressed on what a war on Islam involves, you advocate criticizing it and educating people about it. Most of us agree with that, we just don't think of it as a war on any particular religion, but what should be done with all important issues, particularly when they're having a great impact. We also think it's very important to have our facts straight. Hopefully you recognize how helpful we've been if your goal is to educate: some of your information wasn't of the best quality, you've been given the tools to accomplish your goals more successfully. I know I've learned a lot on this thread, from you and many others.

 

[Bill Thompson]

I know it's not your intention to focus on Christianity. However, it's more like 'let's find a discussion about how cancer is worse than other diseases' and people comparing it to other diseases to determine if this is really the case. Remember, you could have judoed this whole Christian angle by saying 'yeah you're right, we should have a War on Christianity, too. You didn't have to try to make a case that Islam is worse than Christianity, it's what you've chosen to do.

I think a lot of the disagreement on this thread is superficial...when pressed on what a war on Islam involves, you advocate criticizing it and educating people about it. Most of us agree with that, we just don't think of it as a war on any particular religion, but what should be done with all important issues, particularly when they're having a great impact. We also think it's very important to have our facts straight. Hopefully you recognize how helpful we've been if your goal is to educate: some of your information wasn't of the best quality, you've been given the tools to accomplish your goals more successfully. I know I've learned a lot on this thread, from you and many others.

i don't understand. Go fight christianity. There is no reason why you should find recruits among those fighting other bad stuff.

 

[Mister Agenda]

i don't understand. Go fight christianity. There is no reason why you should find recruits among those fighting other bad stuff.

I'm not interested in a 'War on Christianity'. It's not among my causes (but if you'd care to help children in Africa, I can hook you up). I'm just trying to understand what you mean.

You say Islam is evil and when comparisons are made to other Abrahmic religions you claim that it is uniquely evil in a way they are not...but you haven't been able to support this contention very convincingly. You seem unaware of a lot of facts that are important in making such a judgement, such as whether Islam has a supreme cleric, what different factions of Muslims believe, and what different factions of Jews and Christians believe. These are things you need to know to make an informed judgement. And once you know them, the only reasonable thing to conclude is that every Abrahamic religion (and most of the others) has dangerous and unsavory sects that aren't representative of the majority of the religion's adherents. Once in possession of these facts, if you conclude something other than we should be concerned with and opposed to the extremists of the various religions, like you have with your conclusion that Islam as a whole needs to be eliminated, you're going to have to explain why very well if you want anyone else to agree with you about that.

I think we should focus on Saudi Arabia, the Taliban, Al Qaeda, the Lords Army, Christian Nation, Aum Shinrikyo, and so forth. It may not be as simple as 'War on Islam', but the enemy of extremism isn't counter-extremism, but the forces of moderation. Hundreds of millions of Muslims do a fine job of ignoring the most objectionable parts of the Qu'ran and Hadiths, just as Jews and Christians do. To reform Islam, moderation and modernity must be encouraged. What good does condemning the moderates as 'not true Muslims' do? Where does that leave them? Which do you think is more likely to go through their head when they hear a non-Muslim claim they're not really a Muslim? Do you really think it will be more likely 'well, I'll just stop saying I'm a Muslim then!' or 'my brother-in-law was right, the kaffir hold us in contempt and even presume to instruct us on our own faith, maybe I am too moderate'?

Your tactics seem calculated to produce the opposite of the effect you say you want. Moderate Muslims are more likely to give up Islam, the percentage of moderates will increase when moderation is rewarded and extremism is punished. Attempting to change Islam is a much more productive course of action than attempting to eliminate it.

 

[Bill Thompson]

I'm not interested in a 'War on Christianity'. It's not among my causes (but if you'd care to help children in Africa, I can hook you up). I'm just trying to understand what you mean.

You say Islam is evil and when comparisons are made to other Abrahmic religions you claim that it is uniquely evil in a way they are not....

Like I said, why make comparisons? What is the point? Yeah, nice comparisons. It does not mean anything.

"What about when Murkystan drove out the Skoobietribe in 1420 AD", who cares, man?

Islam is a lie. That is the bottom line. It has to go.

 

[Mister Agenda]

BTW, the (admittedly over-simplified) reason Judaism and Christianity are 'kinder and gentler' on average than Islam is that they were chained and muzzled by the Enlightenment. Islam escaped their fate, but now it is coming.

The future of Islam in the West is mosques competing to offer the most attractive doctrine to keep the faithful coming in and donating, just like the churches do. The children of Muslim immigrants in the USA go nuts over Justin Bieber and want to be basketball stars when they grow up, and have hundreds of friends on Facebook they compare shoes with, and listen to music whenever they get the chance.

Islamic Modernism is rising as a counterpoint to Islamism, there are multiple Quranist (Qu'ran alone, hadiths are discarded) groups that drop the source of much that is problematic in Islam.

Islam is in the process of reforming itself, a process we should be encouraging if we care about Muslims and want to reduce the power of the Islamists and Islamic terrorism.

 

[Mister Agenda]

Like I said, why make comparisons? What is the point? Yeah, nice comparisons. It does not mean anything.

"What about when Murkystan drove out the Skoobietribe in 1420 AD", who cares, man?

Islam is a lie. That is the bottom line. It has to go.

Christianity is a lie, too. Why doesn't it have to go?

 

[Bill Thompson]

We do not advance or fix a problem by looking the other way or by denying the problem exists or proclaiming it is similar to other problems that we have ignored.

Go attack Christianity if that is the battle you choose.

I was once on a big anti-catholic campaign once. Somone else stepped on my shoes a lot harder. So for me personally I have been shoved by a bigger bully. If Christianity is shoving you, I suggest you shove back. I wish you good luck.

 

[Foster Zygote]

Christianity is not Islam.
So why do you even mentioin it?

BT: Islam is uniquely evil among the world's religions because it contains feature X.

FZ: But most other religions contain feature X as well. As an example, Christianity contains feature X as well.

BT: Why are you bringing up Christianity? This is about how Islam is uniquely evil among all other religions, it is not about those other religions.

Now, Islam is uniquely evil because it contains feature Y.

FZ: Funny you should mention that, because Christianity contains feature Y as well.

BT: [Paraphrased a bit] Stop disproving my arguments by comparing Islam to what I erroneously claim that it is different from!

 

[Foster Zygote]

Don't forget his "THE Grand Mufti, the Official Authority in Islam" thing (or the "Scientology banned in Germany" thing, though that's less directly applicable to his arguments and more a typical sign of his shoddy research skills).

Or the "fasting is unique to Islam" implication, or his "only uneducated Appalachian hillbillies believe that the Bible is the literal word of God" assertion... We might need to make a list to keep track of them all.

 

[A'isha]

Or the "fasting is unique to Islam" implication, or his "only uneducated Appalachian hillbillies believe that the Bible is the literal word of God" assertion... We might need to make a list to keep track of them all.

You should have seen what happened when I tried quoting bits of the official Southern Baptist Conference website at him.

 

[Bill Thompson]

Either you hit the ground running on this Christian stuff or you jumpped into an ongoing conversation where someone else assumed something was true that wasn't.

Or the "fasting is unique to Islam" implication

That is all you. I never implied that.

, or his "only uneducated Appalachian hillbillies believe that the Bible is the literal word of God" assertion... We might need to make a list to keep track of them all.

If you find someone who is against Islam do you first assume they are a right-wing hypocrite?

 

[Bill Thompson]

BT: Islam is uniquely evil among the world's religions because it contains feature X.

HA !

Show me.

 

[Foster Zygote]

Better yet, show me the head of any of the major sects who proclaims that it is the literal word of God.

How about James Dobson? He's just one of many evangelical Christian leaders who claim that the Bible is the inerrant word of God. Have you ever heard of The Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy? I'm guessing not. And what do you think all that opposition to evolutionary biology is all about?

But all the 9-11 terrorists were. That kind of punches a whole in your theory.

No it doesn't. I said that most Muslim extremists are not well educated. I did not say all. The September 11 attacks were a fairly sophisticated operation. They weren't going to pick some of the ignorant provincial kids whom they frequently employ to strap on explosive vests and walk into a crowd. Did you know that in the U.S. intelligence reports on the leaders of the Taliban, the Minister of Education was, like nearly all the Taliban leaders, listed as having "no formal education"?

Oh, and before I forget, tell me how this has to do with Islam or a war against Islam. Islam is not Christianity. It is also not a counter balance to Christianity. Talking down christianity does not make Islam magically raise up.

I'm getting the distinct impression that you do not read most of the posts made in response to you. It has been explained to you numerous times that we are not making a case that Christianity is any worse, or any better, than Islam. Christianity is simply an example of another worldwide religion that shares many of the same problems that you claim make Islam uniquely dangerous. I don't know how to state it any more simply than that. From this point out the failure or refusal to comprehend this point is entirely in your hands.