• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Why not war against Islam?

I did not see a yes or a no.

Did you answer my question?

If you find someone who is against Islam do you first assume they are a right-wing hypocrite?
 
I am being dragged kicking and screaming into this whole christian discussion. They bring it up. So I ask about it and give my views.
You brought it up indirectly when you made the claim that Islam is uniquely harmful. Do you really not get that? You're claiming that compared to all the others, Islam is the worst. Then you're getting angry when people actually start comparing Islam to other religions.

It is not very intellectually honest approach. I mean, if here was an anti-catholic web forum somewhere I would not think about joining it just to tell people how bad Islam is.
The intellectually dishonest approach is to claim that Islam is worse that other religions and then complain when people compare it to other religions.

It is like, "Hey, let's find a discussion about cancer and hijack it and talk about heart disease"
Actually, it's more like comparing on form of cancer to another closely related form of cancer.
 
That is all you. I never implied that.
Then why did you present it as an example of the evils of Islam?

If you find someone who is against Islam do you first assume they are a right-wing hypocrite?
Bill, these are your own words: "Only the inbred appalachian genetic throw-backs interpret the bible literally and they lack the opposable thumbs and/or higher brain functions to hold and/or make use of a weapon anyway."
 
Then why did you present it as an example of the evils of Islam?


Bill, these are your own words: "Only the inbred appalachian genetic throw-backs interpret the bible literally and they lack the opposable thumbs and/or higher brain functions to hold and/or make use of a weapon anyway."

Do you understand what the word "context" means?
 
Yeah, and I showed you why the Baptist Conference was not what you thought it was. It just took a little digging.

Foster, I did not see a yes or a no.

Did you answer my question?

If you find someone who is against Islam do you first assume they are a right-wing hypocrite?
 
Too bad I have you on ignore. No. Wait. No it isn't. Too bad I can still read what you say when Foster quotes you. Yeah. That is the bad thing.
 
Foster, are you going to answer my questions? I think you won't because we both know what the answer is.

If you find someone who is against Islam do you first assume they are a right-wing hypocrite?
 
Show me.

You must have an exact quote where I said that.

Bill, do you know what quotation marks are for? Do you see any quotation marks in that post of mine? When I quote you verbatim I use quotation marks, like this: "Only the inbred appalachian genetic throw-backs interpret the bible literally and they lack the opposable thumbs and/or higher brain functions to hold and/or make use of a weapon anyway."

Also, do you know that letters like "X" and "Y" are often used to denote variables? In this case they represent the various arguments that you have presented as evidence that Islam should be viewed as more harmful than other religions.

So it should be obvious to most anyone that I was not quoting you, I was paraphrasing your style of argument.
 
Foster, are you going to answer my questions? I think you won't because we both know what the answer is.

If you find someone who is against Islam do you first assume they are a right-wing hypocrite?

Sorry Bill, but I have a life to lead, children to get ready for bed, dinner to make etcetera. I'm not sitting in front of this computer all day so don't act like my failure to respond to your posts immediately is an indication that I've nothing to say.

The answer is no, I do not assume that anyone who is critical of Islam is a right-wing hypocrite. In fact, I myself am quite critical of Islam, as I am with virtually all religions. I'm not sure where this right-wing hypocrite tangent is coming from, but it is curious to me that it seems to have grown out of me quoting your own words, "only the inbred appalachian genetic throw-backs interpret the Bible literally and they lack the opposable thumbs and/or higher brain functions to hold and/or make use of a weapon anyway".
 
BT: Islam is uniquely evil among the world's religions because it contains feature X.

FZ: But most other religions contain feature X as well. As an example, Christianity contains feature X as well.

Hmm...which other religion requires for apostates to be killed? I don't think that Christianity or Judasim do that.
 
Hmm...which other religion requires for apostates to be killed? I don't think that Christianity or Judasim do that.

Might want to take a look at Deuteronomy 13. Not only are you supposed to slay apostate family members who try to get you to also turn apostate, if you hear of people in a city turning apostate and withdrawing from everyone else so they can worship other gods, you're supposed to wipe out that entire city down to the livestock.

For a modern example, take the Christian Dominionist/Reconstructionist movement. Among the many (many!) things they seek to make punishable by the death penalty is...you guessed it, apostasy from Christianity.

And lest you think that they're a wacky fringe movement that no one pays attention to, be sure to read the parts of the article talking about how they're working hard to expand their influence in the political arena, specifically in the wider religious right segment of the GOP.

The fruits of their efforts can be seen in the fact that both of the current Republican frontrunners for the presidential nomination, Rick Perry and Michelle Bachmann, are Dominionists.
 
Might want to take a look at Deuteronomy 13. Not only are you supposed to slay apostate family members who try to get you to also turn apostate, if you hear of people in a city turning apostate and withdrawing from everyone else so they can worship other gods, you're supposed to wipe out that entire city down to the livestock.

For a modern example, take the Christian Dominionist/Reconstructionist movement. Among the many (many!) things they seek to make punishable by the death penalty is...you guessed it, apostasy from Christianity.

And lest you think that they're a wacky fringe movement that no one pays attention to, be sure to read the parts of the article talking about how they're working hard to expand their influence in the political arena, specifically in the wider religious right segment of the GOP.

The fruits of their efforts can be seen in the fact that both of the current Republican frontrunners for the presidential nomination, Rick Perry and Michelle Bachmann, are Dominionists.

Beat me to it.
 
Might want to take a look at Deuteronomy 13. Not only are you supposed to slay apostate family members who try to get you to also turn apostate, if you hear of people in a city turning apostate and withdrawing from everyone else so they can worship other gods, you're supposed to wipe out that entire city down to the livestock.

For a modern example, take the Christian Dominionist/Reconstructionist movement. Among the many (many!) things they seek to make punishable by the death penalty is...you guessed it, apostasy from Christianity.

And lest you think that they're a wacky fringe movement that no one pays attention to, be sure to read the parts of the article talking about how they're working hard to expand their influence in the political arena, specifically in the wider religious right segment of the GOP.

The fruits of their efforts can be seen in the fact that both of the current Republican frontrunners for the presidential nomination, Rick Perry and Michelle Bachmann, are Dominionists.

You might want to provide some better evidence that there is a signficiant (or event insigificant) number of christian or jewish denominations which support killing of apostates.

Can you tell me which denominations exactly kill or advocate the killing of apostates?

Are there any countries in which apostasy from Christianity or Judaism is considered to be a crime?

Are there any Christian or Jewish theologians who advocate the killing of advocates?

How many Christian denominations teach that all the rules and regulations of the OT still apply to Christians today?

How many apostates from Christianity or Judaism have been killed for being apostates?


...never thought I'd actually defend Christianity one day....
 
You might want to provide some better evidence that there is a signficiant (or event insigificant) number of christian or jewish denominations which support killing of apostates.

You asked if there was any other religion that requires apostates to be killed, and doubted that Judaism or Christianity were among them. You were wrong.

Can you tell me which denominations exactly kill or advocate the killing of apostates?

I already gave you one. I believe the Holy Spirit Movement in Uganda is another. Many of the more extreme Calvinist and Presbyterian groups are Reconstructionist in their theology.

Are there any countries in which apostasy from Christianity or Judaism is considered to be a crime?

Not yet, though as I told you the group in the US is working very hard to make America one of those countries. Uganda might be next.

Not coincidentally, the two groups are rather friendly with each other.

Are there any Christian or Jewish theologians who advocate the killing of advocates?

Gary North, Gary DeMar, RJ Rushdoony, Greg Bahnsen...

How many Christian denominations teach that all the rules and regulations of the OT still apply to Christians today?

Fortunately very few. Most Christians don't follow that particular Biblical mandate. Even those who think the Bible is the literal and inerrant Word of God.

Those that do follow it, however, have an undue political influence in America today.

How many apostates from Christianity or Judaism have been killed for being apostates?

Hard to tell, since the Lord's Resistance Army killed so many people for so many reasons.

...never thought I'd actually defend Christianity one day....

"Christianity" teaches the same thing that "Islam" teaches regarding apostasy. If you go by what their scriptures seem to directly command, both are equally "evil" in that regard. But, as your questions above seem to recognize, what matters isn't what "the scriptures teach", but what adherents actually do. But there's nothing inherent in Islam that makes its command to slay apostates different from Christianity's command to do the same. There's simply a difference in the way many modern Muslims and many modern Christians interpret those commands (and even those ways differ from the ways Muslims and Christians used to interpret them at various periods in their histories).

At the moment, for a variety of reasons mostly focusing on Christianity in the West going through a phase of development that Islam has not yet undergone as well as things still shaking out in the postcolonial era, there are more Muslims than Christians who advocate following the dictates regarding apostates that both religions have. That needs to change (ideally via Islam going through an Enlightenment-type period, but there are other methods).

Saying "Islam is worse than Christianity because Islam says (or Islam's holy book teaches) that apostates should be killed while Christianity (or Christianity's holy book) doesn't!" isn't just flat-out wrong, it's the wrong approach if your goal is to truly combat the problem of Islamic extremism and violence (especially if you want that nebulous "War on Islam but not on Muslims" thing everyone keeps bandying about).
 
Last edited:
You asked if there was any other religion that requires apostates to be killed, and doubted that Judaism or Christianity were among them. You were wrong.



I already gave you one. I believe the Holy Spirit Movement in Uganda is another. Many of the more extreme Calvinist and Presbyterian groups are Reconstructionist in their theology.



Not yet, though as I told you the group in the US is working very hard to make America one of those countries. Uganda might be next.

Not coincidentally, the two groups are rather friendly with each other.



Gary North, Gary DeMar, RJ Rushdoony, Greg Bahnsen...



Fortunately very few. Most Christians don't follow that particular Biblical mandate. Even those who think the Bible is the literal and inerrant Word of God.

Those that do follow it, however, have an undue political influence in America today.



Hard to tell, since the Lord's Resistance Army killed so many people for so many reasons.



"Christianity" teaches the same thing that "Islam" teaches regarding apostasy. If you go by what their scriptures seem to directly command, both are equally "evil" in that regard. But, as your questions above seem to recognize, what matters isn't what "the scriptures teach", but what adherents actually do. But there's nothing inherent in Islam that makes its command to slay apostates different from Christianity's command to do the same. There's simply a difference in the way many modern Muslims and many modern Christians interpret those commands (and even those ways differ from the ways Muslims and Christians used to interpret them at various periods in their histories).

At the moment, for a variety of reasons mostly focusing on Christianity in the West going through a phase of development that Islam has not yet undergone as well as things still shaking out in the postcolonial era, there are more Muslims than Christians who advocate following the dictates regarding apostates that both religions have. That needs to change (ideally via Islam going through an Enlightenment-type period, but there are other methods).

Saying "Islam is worse than Christianity because Islam says (or Islam's holy book teaches) that apostates should be killed while Christianity (or Christianity's holy book) doesn't isn't just flat-out wrong, it's the wrong approach if your goal is to truly combat the problem of Islamic extremism and violence (especially if you want that nebulous "War on Islam but not on Muslims" thing everyone keeps bandying about).

I fully agree. There isn't any real evidence to argue that the problems associated with Islam, compared to other faiths like Christianity, are due to some intrinsic quality of the religion itself so much as they are due to the environment that certain Muslims find themselves living in. There is a great deal of evidence both past and present to support the case that if the situation were reversed, that is if Christianity and Islam had been exchanged by events in history, little would be altered other than the fact that Christians would be flying planes into buildings in Muslim America and stoning adulterers in Christian theocracies like Afghanistan.
 

Back
Top Bottom