Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Fine]

It is an interesting quote from the 25 July transcript (quoting Stefanoni's previous testimony from 2008):



Either Stefanoni doesn't understand the question, or she has confirmed people were in the house moving things around during the 46 days the crime scene was supposedly "sealed".

______________

Rose,

The last November day Stefanoni had been in the cottage was November 5th. The Perugian cops had been in the cottage on November 6th and 7th.

The "46 days" is the number of days that elapsed from the date of the murder, November 1st, til the return of the cops on December 18th.......

November days that elapsed = 29
December days that elapsed = 17
____________________________
Total days that elapsed = 46

Bye this way, Sabrina and her mother, Cosima, will appear in court on Monday, answering charges of kidnapping and premeditated murder of Sarah Scazzi.

///

 

[Rhea]

ETA:
After all, how could I ever hope to present details of the case and argue as intellectually while using them as exemplary as this one line...errrr...'argument' directed at me.

Are you still talking?

how could you possibly? I find your double standard absurd at times … the way you so friendly and humanly talk about JREF-posters on PMF … it is really, really absurd …

Short "From the Trenches" for a laugh

Speaking of the futility of even attempting a discussion.
When a poster favoring guilt explains in detail why a particularly obnoxious 'blue human' has made what is little other than yet another attack dog baseless blather of a snarky post against the absent SA, the blue human makes this one line intellectual reply:
__________________________
Are you still talking?
__________________________

Really classy stuff, is it not?
Ever so enlightening about the case
More like paralegal wannabes from New York mannerisms

And then of course the fur clerk (of all people) says this to the guilter:
_______________________
"Play nice"
_______________________
This from cretins who whine that no one favoring guilt will discuss *details of the case* with them.

You're talking about yourself as "a poster favouring guilt"… why the masquerade?

 

[AmyStrange]

I'm not arguing that...

http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/mma/blog...off-robber-with-rear-naked-cho?urn=mma-wp5794

The point is that if a 5 foot 7 inch, 63 year old man can hold down another man with a gun until the police get there, why is it difficult for a young, tall, atheltic Guede to hold down a 120 pound woman long enough to stab her in the neck?

Justinian2,

I appreciate your arguement, and it definitely quite possible for a strong man like Guede to overpower Meredith. Hell, slice anyone's neck with a knife and their hands immediately go to their throat, then knock them to the ground, and strangle them (Meredith) with her own hands etc etc.

What I am arguing is in reference to the marks on Meredith's wrist and forearms (if I remember correctly) from the autopsy report that are used as possible evidence she was restrained by someone other than Guede as he knifed her. My theory is (and like I said before, I apologize if anyone else has already put forth this theory) while taking off her coat and before she had her hands out of the sleeves, Guede attacked her and while she was violently trying to get her hands free; this could have caused the marks on her wrist, but like you said, it wouldn't be that difficult for someone as strong as Guede to over power her himself, my theory is just another possibility also,

Dave

 

[AmyStrange]

I don't always wash dishes after a meal...

halides1,

Yes washing before and after is definitely possible. As I recounted earlier, waiting until needed was a policy during my younger years, but their statements and testimony certainly could have been better on that and what they did that night in general. It can't be argued that they couldn't have done better even if they had nothing to do with the murder.

Moving to yet another of my favorites - why is it that R&A could have helped in the murder and left no evidence in the murder room yet the "fact" that multiple people were involved means it had to be R&A. Why couldn't it have been the other guy Kokomani drove up there with Rudy?

-

Grinder and halides1,

let them sit while I relax after a good meal. Then before you can eat again, you have to wash some plates and utensils and bowls or whatever you need.

Then, there's always paper plates and plastic cutlery, but that's another story.

And the "other" guy, I put my money on Curatolo. There's more evidence he helped Rudy then there is that R&A did it. No alibi, admits being near the house at the time of the murder, and just where was Rudy when all those other crimes to which Curatolo was an eyewitness.

Maybe he was taking the heat off Rudy and it's not much of a stretch that Guede and Curatolo knew each other. He was a drug addict and Rudy sometimes sold drugs or maybe he gave him drugs for his help,

Dave

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Meredith's mother

Once again, does anybody have the communication history of Meredith?

Grinder,

I have frequently read that she called her mother every day. That is what makes the lack of a follow-up call to the one that was ended just before 9 PM so strange.

 

[Danceme]

Danceme,

With due respect you are putting words into my mouth. I never said that Rudi practiced parkour. I seem to recall, however, that Rudi had previous experience breaking and entering through one or more second story windows. What I wonder about is why people either pretend that ascending to Filomena's window is almost as bad as the north face of the Eiger on a blustery day or claim that there should be marks like neon signs left from the ascent. Please excuse the little bit of poetic license in my reply, and I am not putting you into either of these two categories.

Links to parkour have been put forth many times here, although you are right, it's not been by you before, mainly Charlie. Rudy did have previous experience with b and e but not rape or murder! Isn't that interesting in itself? A young man known to be a nuisance and petty drug dealer becomes extraordinarily violent to the point of rape and murder!!!! I think it's rare and that in itself is a little fascinating.

The Knox girl was not there that night. The only decent Luminol print does not even match her foot.

Massei believes that Knox was barefoot based on his discussion of the partial shoe-print on the pillow case.

You are very right RoseMontague and many kudos to you. Your gifted brain picked up on this as well, the print doesn't match Amanda but it also doesn't quite match Rudy either, he has the same long second toe.

Look, the argument over whether bars have been placed on the window is over. This picture is well documented:
[qimg]http://i.imgur.com/npzRL.jpg[/qimg]

End of story, ok?

And as far as criticizing someone for plastic flowers, that's a little ridiculous. Who cares? They guy was on a tour of kind deeds. I mean, a heroin addict going through withdrawal can actually die. Can you imagine where Curatolo might be today if someone hadn't given him money that day? The guy saved his life.

Kudos to you too, thanks for stating the obvious, even if ironically! It's a reality check for those who choose to disparage someone for circumstances beyond his control that day and it's all pretty petty when you really think about it. Personally, I'd have been a little embarrassed to have brought the subject up.
It obviously says more about those that choose to do so than those that choose to let sleeping dogs lie.

Grinder,

I often wash dishes once, as I am preparing food, then wash right after dinner, so that the "palmetto beetles," as I like to call them (or is that palmetto beatles?), do not have anything to eat. Preparing food really is "a hard day's night." Now Danceme will probably point out that palmetto beetles are not a problem in Perugia. Oh, well.

Funny halides1! Personally, I'm sometimes surprised by what you proffer as logic because I often think you're too intelligent for the lame arguments you sometimes offer up.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

distraction

Links to parkour have been put forth many times here, although you are right, it's not been by you before, mainly Charlie. Rudy did have previous experience with b and e but not rape or murder! Isn't that interesting in itself? A young man known to be a nuisance and petty drug dealer becomes extraordinarily violent to the point of rape and murder!!!! I think it's rare and that in itself is a little fascinating.
SNIP
Funny halides1! Personally, I'm sometimes surprised by what you proffer as logic because I often think you're too intelligent for the lame arguments you sometimes offer up.

Danceme,

I posted the parkour link because the previous link was no longer available. Also, it's a fun little video, and I needed a little bit of distraction today. I'd prefer you to specify which arguments you feel are lame and why. That way I can offer a contrary view if I so chose.
ETA
I agree about Rudi, and I am not sure why his behavior changed so much that evening, relative to his previous actions. Is there undisputed evidence that he had a drug habit?

 

[Danceme]

Grinder,

I have frequently read that she called her mother every day. That is what makes the lack of a follow-up call to the one that was ended just before 9 PM so strange.

Yes, I also think this is suspicious and likely related to the timing of the attack on poor Meredith. I think her first attempt at calling was cut off due to poor reception on her way home but she didn't try again because she was then involved in circumstances within the cottage.

 

[Danceme]

Danceme,

I posted the parkour link because the previous link was no longer available. Also, it's a fun little video, and I needed a little bit of distraction today. I'd prefer you to specify which arguments you feel are lame and why. That way I can offer a contrary view if I so chose.

Still lame! Distraction is one thing but red herrings are quite another.

 

[Danceme]

Danceme,
I agree about Rudi, and I am not sure why his behavior changed so much that evening, relative to his previous actions. Is there undisputed evidence that he had a drug habit?

it's the million dollar question if you're into psychology. And no, it's never been stated he had a drug habit, at least no more than any other young person of the time.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

escalation

Still lame! Distraction is one thing but red herrings are quite another.

Danceme,

I don't think one needs to be an expert in parkour to scale the wall in question, do you?

I don't find Rudi's behavior as strange as you do in one sense. A supervising psychologist at the Utah penitentiary was interviewed about rape:
"Q: Do their crimes tend to escalate?

Many times we do see an escalation in the severity of the crimes. Many of the rapists engaged in like I said earlier, fights at school, difficulties with authority figures, teachers, parents, running away from home, those kind of things. Many of them began voyeuring in homes, then eventually escalated to burglaries, even breaking into houses at night while peole were sleeping, because of the thrill and excitement of that experience. Then escalating to the point of fantasy, fantasies about rape, and eventually planning to rape and committing rape."

 

[Danceme]

Danceme,

I don't think one needs to be an expert in parkour to scale the wall in question, do you?

yeah, pretty much.

I don't find Rudi's behavior as strange as you do in one sense. A supervising psychologist at the Utah penitentiary was interviewed about rape:
"Q: Do their crimes tend to escalate?

Many times we do see an escalation in the severity of the crimes. Many of the rapists engaged in like I said earlier, fights at school, difficulties with authority figures, teachers, parents, running away from home, those kind of things. Many of them began voyeuring in homes, then eventually escalated to burglaries, even breaking into houses at night while peole were sleeping, because of the thrill and excitement of that experience. Then escalating to the point of fantasy, fantasies about rape, and eventually planning to rape and committing rape."

That doesn't describe Rudy. B and E yes, but no stories of running away from home, breaking in to watch people sleeping.........
His crime was an escalation not following these usual parameters IMO, although I think he did do the crime.

 

[Kaosium]

Halides1, parkour is not just something you do, one must practice and practice to do the things you see on YouTube. Just try it yourself, or even read about it. There's absolutely no evidence Rudy was a parkour practitioner. Why not stick to the argument that it wasn't all that hard to gain entry through Filomena's window rather than attribute feats such as parkour to Rudy?

Please don't misunderstand, there is value in dissent and it is not my intention to quell it, but I just wanted to ask this as the particular question of climbing into that window has always astonished me that people would argue it.

First off, basketball is something people must practice and practice and requires great feats of athleticism to play well. Rudy was considered an excellent player and as a matter of fact got taken into a rich man's home basically because it was thought he could help their team. Perhaps you don't think you could accomplish it, but let me put it differently:

Now, here's the picture that I thought ought to have completely ended this argument:

Imagine you hear a window break and running into the room you see an athletic young man's head peeking above the opening and he has both hands on the sill. At this point do you feel safe? Would you sneer 'nanny-nanny boo-boo you can't get me!' Or would you run like hell like I would, knowing full well it's a matter of seconds before he's in that window?

 

[Danceme]

Please don't misunderstand, there is value in dissent and it is not my intention to quell it, but I just wanted to ask this as the particular question of climbing into that window has always astonished me that people would argue it.

First off, basketball is something people must practice and practice and requires great feats of athleticism to play well. Rudy was considered an excellent player and as a matter of fact got taken into a rich man's home basically because it was thought he could help their team. Perhaps you don't think you could accomplish it, but let me put it differently:

Now, here's the picture that I thought ought to have completely ended this argument:

[qimg]http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/window_access111.jpg[/qimg]

Imagine you hear a window break and running into the room you see an athletic young man's head peeking above the opening and he has both hands on the sill. At this point do you feel safe? Would you sneer 'nanny-nanny boo-boo you can't get me!' Or would you run like hell like I would, knowing full well it's matter of seconds before he's in that window?

First off let me say that I've always considered Filomeana's window the most unlikey entrance for a burglar no matter the arguments put forth here. I still do but sometimes life is illogical, I accept that.

Second, Basketball bears little resemblance to parkour.

If someone was practically in the window already and I happened to see him I would scream like crazy and slam something down on his hands before he got in or get the hell out of there tout de suite.

 

[Danceme]

OT, once when I was around 19, I was walking to a friend's house at night and as I was passing a school grounds a guy walking on the sidewalk in front of me turned around and ran toward me, picked me up over his shoulder and ran into the school grounds. I stayed calm and kept telling him " you don't want to do this, let me down" and he eventually did. It scarred me for life but he did let me alone and actually said "I'm sorry". I bet this guy went on to worse things. I wonder if Rudy had anything similar in his background.

 

[Kaosium]

yeah, pretty much.


That doesn't describe Rudy. B and E yes, but no stories of running away from home, breaking in to watch people sleeping.........
His crime was an escalation not following these usual parameters IMO, although I think he did do the crime.

There's a lot more about Rudy in the new book by Nina Burleigh, which I've only perused the first forty pages of but have read accounts of indications there's a lot more trouble in his life that previously was either just rumored or unknown. However I was just reading from "Murder in Italy" to answer a question in another discussion and there is something suggestive of the above:

Page 217:

"When Gabriele checked the internet in mid-November, he noticed that Rudy's Instant Messenger account was active. He tried to reach him just to say hello. He was worried that Rudy might have run away, a habit of his from childhood.
I also noticed another source for his English skills, as I recall you queried about that, on page 218 they are described as "...knew a smattering of English..."

As for why? I dunno, I think perhaps he went first for the money and was surprised, and I've always wondered why the courts and doctors seemed to have difficulty determining whether there was an actual assault or not. The assault while dying theory has never quite convinced me, though I've seen the evidence it does happen. That stain might well have the answer, perhaps now it will be tested. I was kinda wondering if that could have had something to do with why he didn't actually do much more than sit there while Mignini read the letter in court, on the advice of his lawyer knowing that an outright lie might well get him more time on his sentence if that stain actually got tested. That whole facet of the case is simply strange.

 

[Danceme]

Interesting Kaosium, I might have to read Nina's book.
The assault while dying theory strikes me as strange too, from a boy not known to be prone to violence. The crime against Meredith was pretty gruesome for a newbie.

ETA, is it possible for Rudy to get more time after having already passed through the highest court in the land?

 

[lionking]

edit

 

[Kaosium]

Bye this way, Sabrina and her mother, Cosima, will appear in court on Monday, answering charges of kidnapping and premeditated murder of Sarah Scazzi.

///

Thanks for the update, at what stage would this court session be? Kind of like the Court of Freedom for Raffaele and Amanda? So just starting to set the kindling, and apply the ropes?

 

[Kaosium]

OT, once when I was around 19, I was walking to a friend's house at night and as I was passing a school grounds a guy walking on the sidewalk in front of me turned around and ran toward me, picked me up over his shoulder and ran into the school grounds. I stayed calm and kept telling him " you don't want to do this, let me down" and he eventually did. It scarred me for life but he did let me alone and actually said "I'm sorry". I bet this guy went on to worse things. I wonder if Rudy had anything similar in his background.

Aw geez! That's terrible, I'm sorry to hear that.

I did find a reference to aggressive behavior, but hardly of that caliber, though not the one I was looking for, where I thought it was said he liked to pin girls up against the wall. From page 224 of "Murder in Italy" by Candace Dempsey:

"When Rudy Guede's photo hit the TV screens, Zach Nowak immediately recognized him.

"I used to see him in the pubs. He's the classic Italian girl botherer. The kind of guy that goes up to a girl in a bar whom he doesn't know and he makes a move. She lets him know that she's not interested. He makes another move. She lets him know again. And still he keeps trying. At that point you're not hitting on a girl, you're bothering a girl. Some guys are too persistent."