Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[snook1]

Look, the argument over whether bars have been placed on the window is over. This picture is well documented:
[qimg]http://i.imgur.com/npzRL.jpg[/qimg]

End of story, ok?

And as far as criticizing someone for plastic flowers, that's a little ridiculous. Who cares? They guy was on a tour of kind deeds. I mean, a heroin addict going through withdrawal can actually die. Can you imagine where Curatolo might be today if someone hadn't given him money that day? The guy saved his life.

I needed a good laugh. Thanks.

 

[pilot padron]

Look, the argument over whether bars have been placed on the window is over. This picture is well documented:
[qimg]http://i.imgur.com/npzRL.jpg[/qimg]

End of story, ok?

And as far as criticizing someone for plastic flowers, that's a little ridiculous. Who cares? They guy was on a tour of kind deeds. I mean, a heroin addict going through withdrawal can actually die. Can you imagine where Curatolo might be today if someone hadn't given him money that day? The guy saved his life.

Are/were you arguing with yourself (again) about bars on the window.......???

Who argued against the fact that now there are bars

My post did put in bold print "at the time of the crime"

Before story ends you did read that, did you not ??

1) Indeed 'End of the story'

2) Was the rather childish slur against SA and Mr Curatolo in your 'story ending saga' of an 'argument' supposed to contain a scintilla of....errrr... humor ??

 

[Chris_Halkides]

wheels within wheels

There is a fingerprint map at IIP that my computer freezes up on, if somebody can get that in a format other than php, I would appreciate it. I don't recall them finding a lot of usable fingerprints at all which is not really that unusual.

RoseMontague,

There are some unattributed prints in Amanda's room, as well as one set of Filomena's. So the putative cleanup was not complete. More generally, I have a problem with the argument, "There must have been a coverup; there is no evidence." I admire circularity in wheels but not in all things.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

big feet?

The prosecution said it was Amanda's , the defense that it was Rudy's, Massei said it didn't matter because she was barefoot anyway.

RoseMontague,

If Amanda were barefoot, then how did she make so much noise running?

 

[HumanityBlues]

Are/were you arguing with yourself (again) about bars on the window.......???

Who argued against the fact that now there are bars

My post did put in bold print "at the time of the crime"

Before story ends you did read that, did you not ??

1) Indeed 'End of the story'

2) Was the rather childish slur against SA and Mr Curatolo in your 'story ending saga' of an 'argument' supposed to contain a scintilla of....errrr... humor ??

Are you still talking?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

A hard day's night.

Clearly Amanda's and Raffaele's recounting of that night is the single greatest evidence pointing to their guilt of something.

Raf's dad's call is a point of issue for their recounting. I suppose it is possible that Raf washed before and after the dinner but...it's a weak explanation.

What's really hard to understand is why if they did it, they didn't coordinate a better story.

Grinder,

I often wash dishes once, as I am preparing food, then wash right after dinner, so that the "palmetto beetles," as I like to call them (or is that palmetto beatles?), do not have anything to eat. Preparing food really is "a hard day's night." Now Danceme will probably point out that palmetto beetles are not a problem in Perugia. Oh, well.

 

[snook1]

It wasn't a slur. It was stating a true and simple fact.

Mr Curatolo, as you call him, is not a person that you should put in line with SA Even though the latter one is a person who lives a life full of hate and anger towards people that he never even met. Back to Curatolo, though - confusing dates on the stand, admitting to being a heroin addict and simply not being able to answer simple questions, puts him just a little bit below SA.

 

[snook1]

RoseMontague,

If Amanda were barefoot, then how did she make so much noise running?

Maybe she had a bionic foot/feet or something. After all, it's not like we haven't see people making ridiculous claims before.

 

[Grinder]

Pilot,

It feels as if you wish to pull me into some personal battles but I'm not interested.

I never said I was new to the case. I haven't been posting for months and before that was mostly an anon at only a couple of sites.

I have never said that there is no reason for the ILE to have suspected them. What I do believe is that the case was botched horribly by the authorities and that the current case is incredibly weak.

One thing that has baffled me for years is that the PG people don't admit the most obvious mistakes of the ILE. I remember posting that the PG should be leading the charge to get rid of Mig even if only for the perception that he might have issues.

The reaction to the C & V independent review of the DNA evidence has been stunning. Marriot influenced their report, they don't understand DNA in the field, they cribbed a bio, social workers at a PG site know more than C & V - I mean come on you must be kidding me, but alas no.

I think it just sad in so many ways that you would bring back the bleach receipt, the mop and bucket, why not the 4 AM laundromat or I know the story that one phone number in her phone was to guy later convicted of drug dealing - the fact there is no verification shouldn't be a bother.

One PG poster translates court documents and another challenges her motives and asks for proof, yet that very challenger uses one off yellow news stories or comments on alt weekly blogs as proof of how bad a person AK has always been.

Pilot, I have found and do find this case fascinating. It is hard to make sense of it.

Some people on both sides have lost sight of reason and perhaps would do well to reassess what they are doing.

 

[snook1]

The reaction to the C & V independent review of the DNA evidence has been stunning. Marriot influenced their report, they don't understand DNA in the field, they cribbed a bio, social workers at a PG site know more than C & V - I mean come on you must be kidding me, but alas no.

Don't forget the famous quote where Ms Ganong said that the mafia most probably was involved in one way or the other.

 

[Grinder]

halides1,

Yes washing before and after is definitely possible. As I recounted earlier, waiting until needed was a policy during my younger years, but their statements and testimony certainly could have been better on that and what they did that night in general. It can't be argued that they couldn't have done better even if they had nothing to do with the murder.

Moving to yet another of my favorites - why is it that R&A could have helped in the murder and left no evidence in the murder room yet the "fact" that multiple people were involved means it had to be R&A. Why couldn't it have been the other guy Kokomani drove up there with Rudy?

 

[Bruce Fischer]

Are/were you arguing with yourself (again) about bars on the window.......???

Who argued against the fact that now there are bars

My post did put in bold print "at the time of the crime"

Before story ends you did read that, did you not ??

1) Indeed 'End of the story'

2) Was the rather childish slur against SA and Mr Curatolo in your 'story ending saga' of an 'argument' supposed to contain a scintilla of....errrr... humor ??

Bars were added to Filomena's window by the owner of the cottage after the murder. Why would this be necessary if Kermit's Spider-Man powerpoint was true? Oh yeah its not true, sorry.

I am happy to see that Humanity Blues provided documented proof. This should put it to rest.

There is nothing childish about Curatolo's drug problem. Its a very serious problem that cannot be corrected by handing him money. You might be able to save him for the day as Humanity points out but it will be a never ending circle.

Here's what you do, give Curatolo the money for his daily fix, then get him professional help. Don't take advantage of his condition by taking his photograph and concocting a story about his honesty just to win an online debate.

Okay, now we all know how to properly handle homeless heroin addicts. What's next? Oh yeah, why so angry with the new poster? JREF welcomes new users, play nice Pilot!

 

[RoseMontague]

It is an interesting quote from the 25 July transcript (quoting Stefanoni's previous testimony from 2008):

Q: Between the first and the second inspection, so many objects were moved in the rooms?

A: From what I could see, yes, I realized this at the second inspection.

Q: Can you describe to me what happened?

A: Objects were moved, I remember for example that the mattress wasn't on the bedsprings any more - and indeed, it was in another room - it was leaning on the divan if I remember correctly, with clothes, the doors of the closet and so forth.

Either Stefanoni doesn't understand the question, or she has confirmed people were in the house moving things around during the 46 days the crime scene was supposedly "sealed".

 

[Kaosium]

yes, it could be likely, just as likely as any of the other explanations. We truly do not know the exact moment in which Meredith died and as much as the stomach contents seem to be able to give us a narrow range, there still exists the possibility she fell outside this range somewhat and for some reason. We can't know for how long she was tortured by Rudy before she died. He had never accosted anyone so violently before in his life nor had he ever killed anyone. Rudy has been described as a nuisance but Violence has never been described as part of his character and I believe it took longer to kill Meredith than most people here seem to.

How long do you think it takes to die from blood loss due to that big neck wound? What evidence do you have that she was tortured extensively, or any reason to think Rudy would have done so? There's literally no pathologist, associated with the prosecution or otherwise who suggested that, all of them assuming a quick struggle and fatal wounds soon inflicted. Even Mignini at the end has Meredith dying within minutes of when the attack could possibly have started, and he's the one who came up with the nutty ritualistic stuff in the first place. Massei had to actually add ten minutes or so to his ToD as Mignini didn't actually allow time for the attack and dying part in his final presentation.

Danceme, we don't know that the British girls didn't do her in and conspire to conceal that and frame Rudy by setting him up to discover it. If you let me put on my bunny suit I can find all sorts of 'evidence' this could have happened with 'lies' and 'false accusations' and everything! I can even add 'Filomena' to the conspiracy to make it 'easier' in wonderland logic.

Actually that's a helluva lot easier argument to put together in some respects that Raffaele and Amanda conspiring with Rudy to do it, even using Ockham's ways and means.

So did several people step into some sodium chlorate, walk it around and later try to wipe it away?

That's not what I meant.

I was reminded of what happens to bleach when it sits or in the bottle, that might not happen in perfect little lab studies where everything is controlled. The bleach decomposes and the chlorate is still in the solution so it can still get tracked around. I think of it as 'clumping and getting icky.' That's what I was getting before at with the 'sciency' thing that happens when it sits like pooled at the bottom of a shower and builtup over repeated cleanings perhaps. That's what I couldn't remember when PhantomWolf asked me about it a month or so ago, and couldn't find a reference to it. It gets wet again, becomes part of a solution and can be tracked around without fading like with sodium hypochlorate in those papers.

If someone washed the floor with bleach, which decomposed into sodium chlorate, wouldn't the whole floor have a glow?

Not if it evaporated before it clumped and got icky!

It might just leave a milky film all over everywhere like in those papers...

 

[Bruce Fischer]

Are/were you arguing with yourself (again) about bars on the window.......???

Who argued against the fact that now there are bars

My post did put in bold print "at the time of the crime"

Before story ends you did read that, did you not ??

1) Indeed 'End of the story'

2) Was the rather childish slur against SA and Mr Curatolo in your 'story ending saga' of an 'argument' supposed to contain a scintilla of....errrr... humor ??

Do you enter your posts with your right hand on PMF and your left hand on JREF?

 

[Katody Matrass]

It is an interesting quote from the 25 July transcript (quoting Stefanoni's previous testimony from 2008):



Either Stefanoni doesn't understand the question, or she has confirmed people were in the house moving things around during the 46 days the crime scene was supposedly "sealed".

The "miscellaneous" gallery on IIP shows some of what she's talking about. Series of photos document scientifica unsealing and entering the cottage only to find:
- mattress with bloody stains moved to the living room
- murder room trashed and in extreme disarray
- piles of Meredith clothing and things on the bed
- piles of shoes and other stuff shoved under the bed
- closet doors removed and leaning on the wall
etc. etc.

the room really looked more like someone turned it upside down in search of something, not like it underwent methodical forensic traces collection.

ETA: Welcome Grinder, your sober and sceptical approach is a valuable contribution!

 

[pilot padron]

Adios Amigos (again)

I am happy to see that Humanity Blues provided documented proof.

Proof for and of what ???

1) No one ever questioned the well known by all fact that bars were put on the window after the murder of Meredith.
So, pray tell what is the reason for 'documented proof'...... other than the usual 'piling on'.

2) The child's coloring book like day glow hatching that was photo shopped on the window actually obliterates and makes the *never disputed* bars hardly visible. Not much "documentation" even if ever so redundant
Kinda like the deliberate photo shopping on IIP that is ever so misleading.

play nice Pilot!

Thank you again for yet more unsolicited 'counsel'.
But, you can Day Glow photo shop "Mission Accomplished" somewhere as an ultimate 'pile on'
Because to the contrary; I now follow the example of so many others and simply bid you adieu.
It just "ain't worth it".
You may carry on and just "play among yourselves"

ETA:
After all, how could I ever hope to present details of the case and argue as intellectually while using them as exemplary as this one line...errrr...'argument' directed at me.

Are you still talking?

 

[Justinian2]

-

Hi Rhea,

all good points. As far as the evidence for multiple, if Meredith were taking her coat off and had not yet removed her arms from the sleeves when she was attacked; her struggles to get out of the sleeves would have left possible evidence that could be misconstrued that other people were restraining her, and thus the evidence of multiple attackers could be explained away with this reasoning.

This is my opinion (maybe someone else has already advanced this theory and I apologize for not giving them credit) and would certainly like to hear rebuttals and other people's opinions concerning this theory,

Dave

A robber messed with the wrong man in Florida on Thursday night. 63-year-old, 5-foot-7 Fred Kemp used a foot sweep and a rear naked choke to disarm a robber who pointed a gun at Kemp and his wife.
[…]
Kemp's quick thinking led him to apply a rear-naked choke, then when the robber was weakened, he took the gun from him. The police report mentioned that Kemp held the robber down until the police arrived.

http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/mma/blog...off-robber-with-rear-naked-cho?urn=mma-wp5794

The point is that if a 5 foot 7 inch, 63 year old man can hold down another man with a gun until the police get there, why is it difficult for a young, tall, atheltic Guede to hold down a 120 pound woman long enough to stab her in the neck?

 

[HumanityBlues]

You may carry on and just "play among yourselves"

Heard that one before, but they always come back.

 

[Grinder]

Pilot,

You and the rest of the PG people could come here and discuss the aspects that remain interesting. You have just met me and trust has not been established but I will take you and anyone's side that is being picked on for unfair reasons.

Now if you bring up canards such as the non-existent bleach receipts, you're on your own.

The discussion of SA's flowers is tedious and tired. Everyone gets it as they wish to see it. I find the idea of the entire trip a little bit close to the edge but each to their own.

It seems to me that both sides have taken some liberties with the truth and the evidence. Certain "news people" have given inaccurate reporting of events. Often focus has been lost on what is germane to the case.

Probably the most egregious behavior has been the smearing of family, friends, reporters, authors, commenters et al. That goes with the tracking of people and some cases the outing of the wrong people.

Beyond the crime itself this entire affair has been a sorry story.

I'm with most of the world in hoping fewer rather than a greater number of people participated in the murder. If AK and RS weren't involved, I certainly hope it will be the result of the appeal. If they indeed did aid in the murder, I hope they will serve their time.

I don't really how they could have been involved, but I could be wrong.

Once again, does anybody have the communication history of Meredith?