Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Danceme]

There is also the possibility that Meredith tried to call for help, but was extremely confused due to shock. At any rate, the calls might mark the tod to within ten minutes.

It could be likely that the tod was between the calls and the ping from the last location of the phone.

yes, it could be likely, just as likely as any of the other explanations. We truly do not know the exact moment in which Meredith died and as much as the stomach contents seem to be able to give us a narrow range, there still exists the possibility she fell outside this range somewhat and for some reason. We can't know for how long she was tortured by Rudy before she died. He had never accosted anyone so violently before in his life nor had he ever killed anyone. Rudy has been described as a nuisance but Violence has never been described as part of his character and I believe it took longer to kill Meredith than most people here seem to.

That's what it is! The bleach decomposes into sodium chlorate which is a strong oxidant which lights up luminol too. The pure lab-used sodium hypochlorate of those papers fades a few days after being applied, the sodium chlorate doesn't.

So did several people step into some sodium chlorate, walk it around and later try to wipe it away?
If someone washed the floor with bleach, which decomposed into sodium chlorate, wouldn't the whole floor have a glow?

Charlie Wilkes originally provided a link to this parkour video, but it was not working the last time I checked. Filomena's window looks like it would be no challenge at all to one of these two guys (Phil Doyle and Kie Willis).
EDT
Welcome, Grinder. Those are good questions.

Halides1, parkour is not just something you do, one must practice and practice to do the things you see on YouTube. Just try it yourself, or even read about it. There's absolutely no evidence Rudy was a parkour practitioner. Why not stick to the argument that it wasn't all that hard to gain entry through Filomena's window rather than attribute feats such as parkour to Rudy?

 

[pilot padron]

One answer and

If the window was impossible for someone to climb into why did Filomena make a point to close the shutters for security?

Welcome.
You question here reveals the revered skepticism.

However:
1) Surely you realize that shutters are closed for more reasons than the sole "security" consideration you cite.

2) In fact a cursory perusal of pictures of the cottage windows/doors at the time of the crime will reveal that if the window was so located so that security was a concern, it had a metal grate; not partially rotted wooden shutters.

FWIW, in my opinion, your earlier questions seem to emanate from a mind pretty well made up about the reasons you inquire about, therefore, I respectfully pass.
Reminds me somewhat of the timeworn: "When did you stop beating your wife?"

Finally, since another poster seems to consider himself a qualified adviser as to where to post, he would probably agree that if you seek 'PG' personalities, you are "barking up the incorrect tree" here

ETA:
The spin that grating was put on Filomena's window later indicates nothing more than maybe the owner reads the Internet.

After 20,000 or so arguments, pictures, diagrams, and videos showing a contortionist bending holding on to a nail, word images of a spiderman dangling from the roof eves after assaulting the planter, and finally, the ludicrous You Tube showing World's Dumbest vaulting walls and railings as if equipped with podiatrist's torsion springs....even I might then want an iron grate on that very difficult to reach window.

Is not that later grate now an ever so convincing spin that the 'break in' was real.

 

[Grinder]

The "bloody" footprints of Amanda clearly are indication that she was there the night of the murder except for the fact that it was not proven that they were hers or that they were left in blood. But, let's say they were left in blood and they more than less matched Amanda, it begs the question: Where did the feet pick up the blood?

There is no evidence of her feet in the murder room (the shoe print on the pillow appears to be Rudy's and there is no evidence of it matching any shoe of hers) nor is there any evidence of any cleanup in that room that would have removed the evidence of where she picked up the blood.

Do the PG group have a theory of where and how the blood came to be on her feet? Since they still spout the pillow shoe print do they think she took off her shoes while in the room and then walked in blood and left the odd pattern of prints in the hall?

I would also (I know this an old subject) like to know what the PGers think of the clean up overall. Why would they not clean off the sink, faucet and bath mat when they full well would have known how it got there? Why wouldn't they have thrown the mat in the tub and washed down the hall, knowing that they had walked there with bloody feet?

 

[snook1]

Very astute, never thought about that, Amanda would naturally assume it was most likely recorded and that lying about the interrogation might not be the best idea …

I, too, never thought about that one. But, I'm not sure if she knew or assumed that the interrogation was recorded or not. I would not think of it if I was in her situation. I'm not sure if people that are that young and with no experience in that department, have any clue whatsoever about how should an interrogation look like and that it should be recorded (in her situation).

However, recorded or not, I would never ever lie about police hitting me and I believe Amanda didn't lie also. Even the PMFers at one point stated that most probably there was some slapping, nothing serious though.

It's not something you make up, when there's several police officers. She most probably didn't even think that saying she was hit, would cause such a huge mess. I believe, she was hit and I see no point in lying about that, even though the guilters have quite a different opinion on that one.

 

[snook1]

The "bloody" footprints of Amanda clearly are indication that she was there the night of the murder except for the fact that it was not proven that they were hers or that they were left in blood. But, let's say they were left in blood and they more than less matched Amanda, it begs the question: Where did the feet pick up the blood?

There is no evidence of her feet in the murder room (the shoe print on the pillow appears to be Rudy's and there is no evidence of it matching any shoe of hers) nor is there any evidence of any cleanup in that room that would have removed the evidence of where she picked up the blood.

Do the PG group have a theory of where and how the blood came to be on her feet? Since they still spout the pillow shoe print do they think she took off her shoes while in the room and then walked in blood and left the odd pattern of prints in the hall?

I would also (I know this an old subject) like to know what the PGers think of the clean up overall. Why would they not clean off the sink, faucet and bath mat when they full well would have known how it got there? Why wouldn't they have thrown the mat in the tub and washed down the hall, knowing that they had walked there with bloody feet?

I think I've seen them saying(something that's not only unbelieveable and not realistic but also very illogical for various reasons) that there was a clean up in Maredith's room also. There are, accodring to them, visible smears which were created during the "clean up" and before it, there were the footprints of Amanda and/or Raffaele.

For the past few years I've seen them making up stories about the clean up, about the lamp, about why they didn't remove the bathmat(apparently, they forgot - that's just one of the versions), why they didn't clean the bathroom entirely. Yes, that was entertaining. I remember reading PMF with my eyes wide open and thinking WTF??!! Are they for real? Well, yes, they're for real.

Now, let's get back to your most interesting question and at the same time, let's be real - there's no way Amanda and Raffaele were in the room and even touched Merediths' blood with their feet. There's just no way. They weren't in that room and there's nothing that suggests otherwise.

 

[Grinder]

Snook1,

Not worth dwelling on, but I do believe that most people think that they are recorded a lot and that the TV police shows have impressed on us that questioning is recorded.

Once again, the fact that the police "knew it was the truth" is huge evidence that they fed it to her and did what they needed to get her John Hancock on the statement.

The "bloody" footprints are the evidence they were in the room. The question is where did they acquire the blood. I recall that the evidence of clean up is the lack of evidence not actual positive evidence of the cleaning. Was she wearing shoes or not?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

any sensible person would probably feel the same way

3) Sollecito's and Knox's concerns about "What Guede might say about them" coupled with the Cassation's statements that Rudy was assisted by "two others", and the sheer impossibility of correlating existing evidence with a 'Lone Wolf', most naturally also has influenced my strong belief in guilt of Knox and Sollecito.

Sounds to me as if Amanda and Raffaele were predicting what a guilty party might try to do--shift the blame. Sounds to me as if their concerns were well founded. MOO.

 

[AmyStrange]

the evidence of multiple attackers...

Only point three would carry some real weight if there actually was unequivocal evidence of multiple attackers, only there is none, the man who conducted the autopsy (Dr. Lalli I think) couldn't exclude a lone attacker.

-

Hi Rhea,

all good points. As far as the evidence for multiple, if Meredith were taking her coat off and had not yet removed her arms from the sleeves when she was attacked; her struggles to get out of the sleeves would have left possible evidence that could be misconstrued that other people were restraining her, and thus the evidence of multiple attackers could be explained away with this reasoning.

This is my opinion (maybe someone else has already advanced this theory and I apologize for not giving them credit) and would certainly like to hear rebuttals and other people's opinions concerning this theory,

Dave

 

[Grinder]

Pilot,

I'm honored by your welcome and response (sort of). It was a mild winter weather pattern in Perugia and I don't think she worried about sun damage. IIRC she stated that she closed the shutters for security.

For your PG position you should have used my argument by stating that although it was impossible to break in through that window the residents clearly didn't think so and that's why AK and RS used it for the staged break in.

Pity about me not being neutral enough to warrant a response but maybe just the chief's statement. What the PG people say about it? I've read the PG sites but I have never seen his statement properly addressed.

And to my credit I haven't asked you about ToD.

 

[AmyStrange]

Good PG questions (in an earlier post)...

Snook1,

Not worth dwelling on, but I do believe that most people think that they are recorded a lot and that the TV police shows have impressed on us that questioning is recorded.

Once again, the fact that the police "knew it was the truth" is huge evidence that they fed it to her and did what they needed to get her John Hancock on the statement.

-

Grinder,

and welcome to the forum. I'd also like to add to your arguement above (which is very well put by the way) that another indicator of what you say is that (before even conducting an investigation as to whether Patrick had an alibi or not) they almost immediately went out and arrested him. Like they already knew he was guilty, but just needed Amanda to admit it so they could arrest her too, or something like that,

Dave

 

[Grinder]

Is there a history of Meredith's "normal" phone activity while in Perugia?

Likewise, is there a history of her computer activity? Did she get on the computer the night of the murder or was that all destroyed by the police forensic people? Did they have wireless in the cottage? Did she use it that night?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

blustery day

Halides1, parkour is not just something you do, one must practice and practice to do the things you see on YouTube. Just try it yourself, or even read about it. There's absolutely no evidence Rudy was a parkour practitioner. Why not stick to the argument that it wasn't all that hard to gain entry through Filomena's window rather than attribute feats such as parkour to Rudy?

Danceme,

With due respect you are putting words into my mouth. I never said that Rudi practiced parkour. I seem to recall, however, that Rudi had previous experience breaking and entering through one or more second story windows. What I wonder about is why people either pretend that ascending to Filomena's window is almost as bad as the north face of the Eiger on a blustery day or claim that there should be marks like neon signs left from the ascent. Please excuse the little bit of poetic license in my reply, and I am not putting you into either of these two categories.

 

[pilot padron]

Sounds to me as if Amanda and Raffaele were predicting what a guilty party might try to do--shift the blame. Sounds to me as if their concerns were well founded. MOO.

Yes, wariness toward any guilty party is understandable as you point out.

But since serious attempts at past arguments here have regaled us with reasons why "nearly every person in Perugia" could be equally 'guilty', why were Knox and Sollecito expressing such specific fear of "what Guede might say shifting blame specifically *to them*.

Again, I try to constantly keep uppermost considering the totality of all the evidence.
Self incriminating statements I cited today are just that; very incriminating.
But still are only one part of the whole picture, and standing alone, as you infer, are not 'game changers'

 

[snook1]

Snook1,

Not worth dwelling on, but I do believe that most people think that they are recorded a lot and that the TV police shows have impressed on us that questioning is recorded.

Once again, the fact that the police "knew it was the truth" is huge evidence that they fed it to her and did what they needed to get her John Hancock on the statement.

The "bloody" footprints are the evidence they were in the room. The question is where did they acquire the blood. I recall that the evidence of clean up is the lack of evidence not actual positive evidence of the cleaning. Was she wearing shoes or not?

The question is, though, did Amanda know that the interrogation was recorded? I've seen her making statements on the stand that she watched CSI alot. Not sure if she learned something from this show.

I can speak for myself and I would not think about that issue during an all night interrogation after my roomate was killed. But since, I've never been in this kind of a situation in my short life, I can not rule out that eventually it would cross my mind.

The whole clean up saga is kinda disturbing, as there is no proof that the clean up even took place. Not to mention that the possibility of performing the clean up the way Knox and Sollecito are accused of, is close to zero. In fact, I don't think there is anyone in the whole world who would be able to clean their own traces after a cruel murder and leave traces of someone else, the way the prosecution claims happened in this case.

Imagine Amanda and Raffaele right after they killed Maredith along with Rudy. What's next? Didn't they just kill a person for the first time in their lives? They would most probably just freak out, touch things, leave incriminating evidence that would be near impossible to remove. Instead, we are fed with a story that they went back to the cottage and performed a clean up that would be up for the "best clean up in history award".

To date, I have not seen any credible info how, why, when and by using which tools they performed this clean up.

 

[Grinder]

halides1,

I think you and many discussing this case are taking the bait on the "break in".

Whether or not it was staged has been given far too much interest. There are many alternatives to staging equating to an "inside" job. A couple that have come to mind are Rudy tossing the boulder through the window to see if anybody would react and then having Meredith appear or Rudy having or believing he had a date and that Meredith could have told somebody. I'm sure there are many other possibilities.

It is not at all clear why AK and RS would have felt the need to stage the break in and leave the door open. They didn't clean the bathroom. They didn't clean the hallway. Why would they take the time to stage a break in?

 

[Grinder]

I can speak for myself and I would not think about that issue during an all night interrogation after my roomate was killed. But since, I've never been in this kind of a situation in my short life, I can not rule out that eventually it would cross my mind.

Snook1 - but you never killed someone, told a giant lie that would undoubtly come out and had 12 hours in solitary to think about it.

So had Amanda been in that circumstance she would have turned over all the possibilities and I believe strongly that she would have thought of the session being recorded.

Anyway, the ILE would have known about accusation in less than twenty-four hours after their improper interrogation (Supreme Court ruling) and perhaps a tape/DVD was lost.

 

[pilot padron]

Humor me

Pilot,

I'm honored by your welcome and response (sort of). It was a mild winter weather pattern in Perugia and I don't think she worried about sun damage. IIRC she stated that she closed the shutters for security.

For your PG position you should have used my argument by stating that although it was impossible to break in through that window the residents clearly didn't think so and that's why AK and RS used it for the staged break in.

Pity about me not being neutral enough to warrant a response but maybe just the chief's statement. What the PG people say about it? I've read the PG sites but I have never seen his statement properly addressed.

And to my credit I haven't asked you about ToD.

1) "security" when word dissected as only this Board could, certainly might also include protection from prying eyes, etccc, so I still do not accept your use of that as proof the break in was 'real'

2) Sun damage likewise is pretty broad and unconvincing.
Since there were no blinds, "security" closing could simply be also to protect from morning rays waking young late sleepers.

3) I have no idea why Knox and Sollecito used *that* window to stage the phoney break in, other than convenience and the absence of grate.
Your argument played no part in my argument nor their decision.

4) Humor me. Re-read your questions that I liken to the 'beating your wife' analogy, and you will easily see the glaring lack of 'neutrality' and understand my reluctance and reason therefore.

5) As with so much of this, the Chief's statement has been analyzed ad nauseam, as has the Chief's wall of shame pictures, as has the chief's drive to the Questura, here spun as akin to a WWII ticker tape triumphant siren sounding proud parade down the canyon of heroes in NYC.

Again, my reticence to fully engage each of your points is steadfastly founded in reluctance to reiterate what has been reiterated into oblivion 60,000 times.

ToD omission noted with appropriate acclaim

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Was the handprint common knowledge at this point?

Yes, wariness toward any guilty party is understandable as you point out.

But since serious attempts at past arguments here have regaled us with reasons why "nearly every person in Perugia" could be equally 'guilty', why were Knox and Sollecito expressing such specific fear of "what Guede might say shifting blame specifically *to them*.

Again, I try to constantly keep uppermost considering the totality of all the evidence.
Self incriminating statements I cited today are just that; very incriminating.
But still are only one part of the whole picture, and standing alone, as you infer, are not 'game changers'

pilot padron,

If I understand your argument correctly, it is why were Amanda and Raffaele specifically afraid of Rudi. Here I think you have a valid, if limited, point. Pro-guilt commenters might say, "Why should they be afraid unless they knew specifically that Rudi were involved?" I think that A and R made a natural assumption that the police had got the right person at last. The incompetence of ILE in this matter had not yet fully revealed itself, or they might have been less inclined to do so. Moreover, if A and R knew of the handprint, then it would be an entirely understandable assumption that the police had nabbed the true perpetrator.

Let us assume the opposite of what I believe for a moment (that A and R are guilty). In the past it has been argued in some quarters that A and R did not name Rudi because they were afraid he would turn on them. Well, that day has come and gone. Rudi (obliquely) pointed a finger at them in his court appearance. And yet A and R don't return the favor? If they were guilty, I would expect them to do so, but they did not. I don't believe that this argument alone is a strong one, but it does make one pause and reflect. MOO.

 

[Rhea]

But since serious attempts at past arguments here have regaled us with reasons why "nearly every person in Perugia" could be equally 'guilty', why were Knox and Sollecito expressing such specific fear of "what Guede might say shifting blame specifically *to them*.

Was the rest of the population of Perugia sitting in jail, accused of murder by the police?

Again, I try to constantly keep uppermost considering the totality of all the evidence.
Self incriminating statements I cited today are just that; very incriminating.
But still are only one part of the whole picture, and standing alone, as you infer, are not 'game changers'

You called them staggering examples of why you believe in guilt …

If the rest of the evidence would point to guilt, some of these things could be seen as incriminating, the rest of the evidence points heavily to innocence though and to Rudy as the sole attacker, so the innocent explanation makes much more sense ….

 

[Chris_Halkides]

three left feet

Grinder,

It seems as if they had a preference for cleaning up left feet, since they left three right feet (in luminol in the hallway) behind.