Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Malkmus]

Interesting. Very interesting. So if the photos in question were indeed post-arrest police shots of Knox's naked torso/body, well.... the first thing that comes to mind is that they would hardly have been very erotic: a stone-faced Knox standing in front of harsh police examination lights in an office, interview room or custody suite, face-on, side-on, back-to-camera.

But then the important questions start: how and why would such photos have leaked from the police? Who would have leaked them? Who would have had access to them within the police/prosecutor investigating team? How and why would the photos have even ended up in the hands of Sfarzo?

Correct. I think some of the ambiguity surrounding the nature of the photos (i.e. reluctance to fully disclose what the photos were, who took them, and how someone else would end up with them) stems from the fact that it actually puts PLE in an unfavorable position, and Knox as defenseless and somewhat sympathetic - as opposed to sexual, lurid pics of her as the person the tabloids painted her as.

 

[LondonJohn]

-

LJ,

I was thinking (and remembering) something else when I made my time of death theory about the interrupted call and I really have no problem with acknowledging my mistakes, especially when folks are so nice about it and willing to take the time to explain in detail.

Again thank you LJ and Dan,

Dave

No problem at all. In fact, before the time stamp was discovered from the CCTV images (it had been cropped out in earlier versions), most people - including me - thought it likely that Meredith arrived home at around 8.55pm. This earlier timing was based on Sophie Purton's testimony, although it now appears that she gave various conflicting versions of the timings from that night. And that 8.55pm homecoming timing would have lent weight to the argument that Meredith's 8.56pm call to her mother was interrupted by a confrontation with Guede.

But with the CCTV timestamp - and the factors leading to the reasonable suggestion that the figure in the images in Meredith with her large beige tote bag - it now seems likely that Meredith didn't in fact arrive back at the cottage until around 9.05pm - some 10 minutes later than the original hypothesis.

My personal belief regarding the 8.56pm unconnected call is now this: I think that while Meredith was at her friends' house, she was conscious of not having called her mother. I think she resolved to place the call as soon as she was away from the company of her friends. I think that as soon as Meredith and Sophie parted at around 8.55pm - at the junction of Via Roscetto and Via Pinturicchio - Meredith immediately remembered that she needed to call her mother. I think she retrieved and dialled the number, but then realised that a) it was a cold night, b) she would prefer to be more fully aware of her surroundings on dark, quiet, high-sided streets, and c) she would be home within five minutes anyhow. I think that for all these three reasons, she made the quick decision to abort the call to her mother, with the intention of calling her mother once she was comfortable, safe and warm at home. That call never happened, of course.....

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

What time do you estimate Amanda hung up Rudy's coat for him? What time do you estimate she locked the door?

Rolfe.

I think she hung his coat up around 9:00 - she didn't lock Meredith's door until likely the early morning.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

1) Guede left a partial print in a dilute mixture of blood and water on the bathmat in the small bathroom. Regardless of the incorrect conclusion drawn in Massei's court, this issue will almost certainly be corrected in Hellmann's court.

2) On what evidence do you base your seemingly-confident assertion that Guede "clearly did not stop to lock Meredith's door"? Even if this action did not happen on the occasion when Guede tracked the faint blood shoe prints down the hallway, why is it not possible that Guede then returned to Meredith's room - after all the blood on his shoe had been deposited onto the floor, therefore leaving no prints? In fact, as I argued a day or so ago, it's entirely possible that Guede either forgot that he needed a key to open the front door, or that he had never realised this prior to the confrontation/attack on Meredith. If that were the case, then Guede would almost necessarily have walked/run from Meredith's room towards the front door, then would have had to return to Meredith's room to find and retrieve the key he now knew he needed to open the front door.

3) Who are "you people"? That's a worryingly segregationalist phrase, which is more redolent of a hate group than someone simply debating a murder case.

#1 - yea, good luck with that one

#2 - If that were the case then the Luminol test would have picked it up

#3 - Sorry, meant to say FOAKers

 

[Danceme]

Vogt/Nadeau also appear to have provided Ganong with parts of the Conti/Vecchiotti DNA report....

Other sites post it was Bongiourno who leaked the report.

You're probably correct. My point was more that if such photos had existed, it's most likely that they existed on Knox's laptop (or possibly her camera memory) - and that since these items were in the custody of the postal police from November 6th onwards, any attempted sale would more likely have been conducted by the police or someone closely connected to the police.

The truth is more likely to be that no such photos ever existed in the first place. Although there's also the possibility that an unscrupulous postal officer might have discovered nude photos of Knox on his initial examination of the hard drive, then decided to copy them for himself and delete their presence on Knox's machine. In that way, he could potentially make money for himself by selling the photos (possibly via a friend or other connection), while remaining unlinked to the photos' provenance. If that were the case, then the prosecutors would not have had the photos available to use in evidence, even if they would have wanted to do so.

I had always assumed actually, that if such pictures existed that they were taken by PLE as part of her examination for injuries (like the photo of the hickey on her neck taken during such examination). I think I got that notion from this post on PMF last year:

http://perugiamurderfile.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=223&p=43141&hilit=nude#p43141

I can't think of what other photos would have been taken of her after her arrest.

Interesting. Very interesting. So if the photos in question were indeed post-arrest police shots of Knox's naked torso/body, well.... the first thing that comes to mind is that they would hardly have been very erotic: a stone-faced Knox standing in front of harsh police examination lights in an office, interview room or custody suite, face-on, side-on, back-to-camera.

But then the important questions start: how and why would such photos have leaked from the police? Who would have leaked them? Who would have had access to them within the police/prosecutor investigating team? How and why would the photos have even ended up in the hands of Sfarzo?

Correct. I think some of the ambiguity surrounding the nature of the photos (i.e. reluctance to fully disclose what the photos were, who took them, and how someone else would end up with them) stems from the fact that it actually puts PLE in an unfavorable position, and Knox as defenseless and somewhat sympathetic - as opposed to sexual, lurid pics of her as the person the tabloids painted her as.

The photos do not exist. There is no need to create scenarios around postal police. There is not a snowball's chance in hell that these photos would not have found the light of day were they for real.

 

[AmyStrange]

If anybody did it...

I think she hung his coat up around 9:00 - she didn't lock Meredith's door until likely the early morning.

-

Sherlock,

it was Curatolo. There is more evidence that he helped Guede (if only as a look out) murder and rape Meredith than there is that Amanda and Raffaele did it. He has no alibi and admits being near the murder scene on that night and probably knew Guede because he was a drug dealer, and where was Guede on the nights that Curatolo testified those other two three times. Maybe he got heroin from Guede for deflecting suspicion away from him,

Dave

 

[Malkmus]

Other sites post it was Bongiourno who leaked the report.










The photos do not exist. There is no need to create scenarios around postal police. There is not a snowball's chance in hell that these photos would not have found the light of day were they for real.

I think you're probably right. Nadeau fed them a lie and I believe they think it's true. I'm just trying to decipher how they've come to believe this might be true. And it seems the above scenario is what fits the pieces best.

 

[PhantomWolf]

First of all, your diagrams wrong, where did you get it from, Rudy left no prints in the bathroom

The footprint in the bathroom, as has been pointed out, was the one on the bathmat, or per haps you have forgotten that one.

secondly, all the shoe prints are left foot of Rudy's, the prints clearly show he was running out of Meredith's room

If he was running, how did he avoid colliding with the clothes rack which one of his footprints was directly in front of?

stopped in the living room probably to put his coat back on that Amanda had hung up for him.

Now you are just making up stuff out of whole cloth with zip evidence.

Rudy clearly did not stop to lock Meredith's door no matter how you want to spin it but at the same time I know you people can not accept this, because it means Amanda is GUILTY to some degree, Good day sir.

Says the person inventing things out of thin air when the evidence doesn't agree with his theory. Have a good day yourself.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

The footprint in the bathroom, as has been pointed out, was the one on the bathmat, or per haps you have forgotten that one.

If he was running, how did he avoid colliding with the clothes rack which one of his footprints was directly in front of?

Now you are just making up stuff out of whole cloth with zip evidence.

Says the person inventing things out of thin air when the evidence doesn't agree with his theory. Have a good day yourself.

The bathmat foot print was not Rudy's - now who's making things up.

If the cloths rack is in the way of one of the footprints, then I guess someone must have moved it there after it was made - You don't have to be Sherlock Holmes to figure that one out.

And I will sir......

 

[PhantomWolf]

Well I'm sure she had quite the few conversations with him!

Well you know, I think I would rather go with the word of someone connected with the case and who actually was in Perugia rather then what someone who has never been there and knows none of the priciple players believes with no actual evidence.

 

[PhantomWolf]

The bathmat foot print was not Rudy's - now who's making things up.

Looks close to Rudy's footprint to me, and funny thing, when a poll was done here, it looked closer to Rudy's print to the majority of those polled too.

If the cloths rack is in the way of one of the footprints, then I guess someone must have moved it there after it was made - You don't have to be Sherlock Holmes to figure that one out.

Or perhaps, shock, horror, the person that made the print was walking, not running, and walked around it.

 

[PhantomWolf]

It amazes me that you all still stand by your amateur calculations and reliance on outdated methodology.

It amazes me that you would call the pathologist that testified in court to the ToD being within three hours of the meal an amateur who was using outdated methodology.

 

[Poppy1016]

Sherlock,
With all due respect, are you seriously saying Amanda hung up Rudy's jacket? Thats sounding wierd and somewhat desperate to make a claim like that. Are you really arguing your belief in guilt in this manner? The thing I don't understand is why some make wild claims and will not argue their point intelligently. Why come here if you do not want to rationally debate ? Many will not answer direct questions in order to further the discussion. I personally welcome the opinions of both sides of the issue, but not statements that cannot be proven. Personal beliefs are fine when they are sincere and thought out. But many argue for the sole purpose of arguing and not fro the purpose of finding the truth.

 

[PhantomWolf]

I'm glad to hear that the professionals came up to your standards, but you are ignoring the fact that GI contents as indicator of time of death are not reliable so your reliance on it rather invalidates your conclusions. Like, totally.

You are right, they aren't reliable. The stomach can start emptying in a healthy unstressed person anywhere between 20 minutes and 3 hours after starting a meal, and in most cases the time of the last meal isn't known either so that throws things in a loop. Of course if the person is stressed or ill that can increase the digestion time significantly.

However, in this case those factors are irrelevant. Meredith was not ill, and between 6pm and 9pm she was far from stresed so digestion was normal. On top of that we know within 30 mins when the meal started, and we know she was still alive at near enough to 9pm that at the longest the stomach should have begun emptying at the latest by 9:30pm all things being equal. That leaves one thing, stress after 9pm. However there is no sign of prolonged stress on her body, no ligature marks, no torture marks, and the Prosecution claims that she spent from 9pm to 11:30pm undisturbed meaning that her stomach had between 5 and 5 1/2 hours unstressed to complete digestion, something that two pathologists in the case stated normally takes only up to 3 hours and one said it could take as long as four hours at a push.

So who is the more likely to be correct about the time of death?

Rudy, who was undoubtably there, and who puts it at 9:20pm
Two Pathologists who put it at 9-9:30pm
One Pathologist who put it between 9 and 10:30pm
ETA: The Italian Court that found Rudy guilty and put it between 9 and 10:30pm

or Massei and Mignini, neither of whom was there and neither of whom has any pathology skills, one of whom puts it at 11:50pm and the other at 11:40pm?

ETA2: Funny how the first five are all in rough agreement with both each other, and the scientific literature, while the last two aren't.

 

[Poppy1016]

bucket,
do you also believe that taking body temperature asap is also not reliable?

 

[Kaosium]

I had always assumed actually, that if such pictures existed that they were taken by PLE as part of her examination for injuries (like the photo of the hickey on her neck taken during such examination). I think I got that notion from this post on PMF last year:




http://perugiamurderfile.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=223&p=43141&hilit=nude#p43141


I can't think of what other photos would have been taken of her after her arrest.

The nude photos of Amanda Knox 'reportedly' offered for sale to a British tabloid source back to this Newsweek article by Barbie Nadeau posted here on the Daily Beast:

The trial has also spawned a bizarre online subculture where bloggers bicker and anonymous posters spew vile comments and juvenile threats that often seem straight out of a South Park episode. One blogger even filed a police complaint against another in Seattle. Another blogger reportedly tried to sell nudie pictures of Knox to a British tabloid. While in Perugia, Knox's family and friends hurl insults at "tacky journalists" who dare question the defendant's innocence.

As you can see that article contains an oblique reference to the Cheshire Cat herself who had this to say:

As everyone knows, I am the blogger who filed the police complaint in Seattle - not against another blogger, but rather against identified individuals who were harassing me. But who's the blogger who reportedly tried to sell nude photos of Knox to a British tabloid? How many bloggers out there could gain access to such photos, if they exist? And who would seek to gain financially in such an utterly sleazy way?

So as you can see, not only does the Barbie Nadeau article not name who it is, the term 'reportedly' is employed. It should be remembered Barbie decided to add something like five extra men to Amanda's sex life in Italy based on nothing but rumors that all turned out to be untrue, and of course never actually noticed of the seven listed in her diary, five were Americans she'd known before she got to Italy. So if Barbie, who can blithely go from 'two' to 'twelve' (or so) and considering it worth reporting as fact, anything she writes as unsubstantiated, unsourced rumor is even more suspect.


As of September 1st, 2010 the Cheshire Cat was still only suggesting who she thought was responsible for the 'naked pictures' as per the post timestamped 2:58 PM. A couple posts down just crack me up, as Katy-Did was 'exposed' as a malignant force by Capealadin for the following comment on JREF:

'Hope the dissenters keep posting though. PMF is so much funner when there are people disagreeing with them."

Her appeal fell on deaf ears as she was then tried by SomeAlibi for treason and executed with no remorse with the dread words: 'Thanks for stopping by.'

So all this amounts to is a rumor Barbara Nadeau wrote about, over time it morphed into an accusation that it could only have been Frank Sfarzo, which is kind of ridiculous as it assumes that there actually were nude photos in the hands of police that Frank somehow got access to, that the police themselves didn't bother to trumpet them to the entire world. As they were creatively translating her Myspace story to make it sound like she had 'rape fantasies' and releasing her diary to reporters suggesting she'd had seven lovers in Italy instead of her life, one would think 'obscene' photos would at least be referred to. Poor Raffaele was damned for something along those lines.

One the other end we have British tabloids whom we are supposed to believe actually turned down naked pictures of their 'Foxy Knoxy' who they were in the process of burning at the stake. Not only that, we're supposed to believe they didn't even mention it. I can think of one reason that might be the case, as in those photos weren't legitimate, in other words some blogger from anywhere might well have created or obtained photo-shopped pictures of Amanda Knox and offered them to the tabloids who of course turned them down.

Considering this is the same group of 'intrepid investigators' who 'determined' Steve Moore was the one investigating financial crimes in the South Pacific, LondonJohn wasn't actually from London but really a FOA infilitrator from Texas, (hilarious reading can be had on this in both previous threads and PMF) Bruce Fisher was a cameraman in Seattle and Frank Sfarzo a 'tool' of the Gogerty-Marriott/FOA PR Supertanker of Doom, the conclusion that whoever and whatever Barbara Nadeau was referring to in that article was Frank Sfarzo is specious at best. At worst it's a false accusation, which reminds me of that police complaint filed also mentioned in that article and the commentary by the Cheshire Cat: what became of that? Was that also a false accusation?

 

[RWVBWL]

You are right, they aren't reliable. The stomach can start emptying in a healthy unstressed person anywhere between 20 minutes and 3 hours after starting a meal, and in most cases the time of the last meal isn't known either so that throws things in a loop. Of course if the person is stressed or ill that can increase the digestion time significantly.

However, in this case those factors are irrelevant. Meredith was not ill, and between 6pm and 9pm she was far from stresed so digestion was normal. On top of that we know within 30 mins when the meal started, and we know she was still alive at near enough to 9pm that at the longest the stomach should have begun emptying at the latest by 9:30pm all things being equal. That leaves one thing, stress after 9pm. However there is no sign of prolonged stress on her body, no ligature marks, no torture marks, and the Prosecution claims that she spent from 9pm to 11:30pm undisturbed meaning that her stomach had between 5 and 5 1/2 hours unstressed to complete digestion, something that two pathologists in the case stated normally takes only up to 3 hours and one said it could take as long as four hours at a push.

So who is the more likely to be correct about the time of death? Rudy, who was undoubtably there, and who puts it at 9:20pm Two Pathologists who put it at 9-9:30pm One Pathologist who put it between 9 and 10:30pm or Massei who was not there and has no pathology skills who puts it at 11:40pm?

Hi PhantomWolf,
I've just gotta say that this was a nicely laid out explanation for the ToD theory.

But with that said, I doubt you will ever get a member of the pro-guilt community, of which I too was one at 1 point a long time ago, to agree with it though. Heck, IF I were still a pro guilter, I bet old man Stint would be cheerin' me on as I argued with you folks against this ToD theory! And you guys would be baggin' on me too, that stupid RWVB, whatever his initials are, is a stupid, clueless, dope smoking, beach bum clod...

These folks, members of the pro-guilt community, hardly ever seem to publicly recognize any of the basic mistakes that the investigators made in this brutal murder case we discuss, such as the cops who couldn't correctly count the # of rings correctly on the bottom of Raffaele's sneakers, nor that there was a copy of that Harry Potter book at Raff's pad as Amanda said there was, or that the cops were wrong, Amanda'a clothes were exactly where she said that she left them., and on and on, and on.

How do you get them to agree that the cops or court made serious errors on much more important issues is beyond me. To get a member of the pro-guilt community to publicly agree that Steffanoni and her team's workmanship, shown on video for the world to see, was a source of possible, therefore probable contamination, or that the ToD, as argued here on JREF, has merit and is true, might be true, is, simply, I believe, too much to ask for.

Halides1, -a very smart guy, myself, -a more simple kinda guy, and others have argued that we would be open to changing our opinion of Amanda and Raffaele's innocence if simply that huuuge knife handle was ever to be opened up, tested and Meredith' blood was found inside, or if simply that possible semen stain, apparently never tested in a rape/murder case, was then so done, and shown to be from Raffaele.

Heck, here's a new 1 from me. I would be open to changing my opinion of Amanda's innocence if simply a video tape fom Amanda's Nov. 5/6 2007 late night chit chat, tea and pastry get together with the cop chicks existed and then did publicly surface and it indeed showed Amanda, uncoerced, just kickin' it with the ol' Rita, Monica, Lorena and Anna the mediator, opps, I mean interpreter, specifically stating that Patrick Lumumba did kill Meredith while she cowered in the kitchem, covering her ears to block out Meredith's screams. Let's see Amanda state this without any slaps to the head to help her remember. I'll probably change my opinion of much that I feel I know.

But I somehow doubt that any of the hard core guilter's will ever admit the cops made numerous mistakes, or publicly state what, if anything simple not done already, would help convince them of Amanda and Raffaele's innocence. Or that the ToD that a JREF Googler or a Library Card holder has argued about for months does inded have merit.

RW

 

[lionking]

Looks close to Rudy's footprint to me, and funny thing, when a poll was done here, it looked closer to Rudy's print to the majority of those polled too.

Well I'm convinced then. An anonymous poll of mainly AK supporters. Can't argue with that.

 

[PhantomWolf]

Well I'm convinced then. An anonymous poll of mainly AK supporters. Can't argue with that.

If the poll was anonomous, how do you know it know that it was mainly AK supporters?

Besides, it was a poll in this forum, so are you saying that most of JREF are AK supporters, and if so, then what does that say about the case since this place is supposed to be full of rational thinkers?

link to poll

Note that less that 5% of those answering thought it was Raffale's footprint, over 23% thought it was Rudy's, and over 50% thought it could have been anyone's.

 

[Katody Matrass]

As prof Vinci pointed out, the shape of the big toe is different from very distinct Raffaele's toe and matches Guede's toe instead.

I think that apart from the simple visual assessment it is useful to consider both the hypotheses ( A - print is Guede's vs B - print is Raffaele's) in context.

A - it is established that Guede was at the scene. There are numerous bloody prints of his that he made no attempt to remove. He admits to going to the bathroom and cleaning himself up, mentioning trouser legs specifically. No problem including the bathmat print into that scenario.

B - Why would Raffaele made the print, call the police and point it out to them?
With the very low probability of any scenario placing AK and RS at the crime scene to begin with it makes the whole thing even more surprising.