Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Rolfe]

The thing is, sometimes you find evidence that flatly contradicts other evidence. I had a badger caught in a snare, and the intestinal contents showed it had eaten within the previous 24 hours or so. The thing was, histopathology of the wound margins showed without doubt that the animal had been in the snare for at least a week.

So in that situation, something has to go. The histopathology was solid. In the end, the reasonable conclusion was that the snare had allowed sufficient leeway of movement that the animal had managed to find some food even though it was trapped.

In this situation though, there's no contradiction. There's nothing else that suggests Meredith lived beyond 9.30 that evening. Nobody spoke to her, nobody saw her, and there was no evidence of her having done any of the things a live person might have been expected to do during the evening.

So I don't need to go out and find evidence that Meredith took her pizza portion home with her in her bag, and heated it and ate it after she arrived home, or anything like that. Thankfully. Because that's the sort of evidence that would have to be found, to make a time of death of 11.40 consistent with these post mortem findings.

Nobody has even made a coherent case. It's not possible for duodenal contents to slip down to the ileum just by handling and moving a body. If Meredith had been tortured and terrorised for two and a half hours starting with a full stomach, it's as likely that her gut would have started to churn as anything. She could have vomited. And in any case, who started to torture her before 9.30, and how many of them were there?

I see the PMF have also now decided that the official forum view is that the West Memphis Three were guilty child-killers, and have admitted it. Nobody seems to understand the subtleties of that particular version of the Alford Plea, or to have given much thought to how come a man who had been sitting on death row is now free, on account of it. They agree to agree the three are admitted child killers, so that's fine. Fiona knows better, and would like to disagree, but she also knows she can't challenge the group-think.

What a horrible crowd.

Rolfe.

 

[HumanityBlues]

If you're referring to the claim that Frank tried to sell nude photos of Amanda, I'm certain I read that a couple of years ago. It's not a new claim although the source could be the same, I don't remember. Anyways, even then I never saw any proof, and I'd hazard a guess if he actually had any he would have found a buyer no matter the price and we would know of it by now, likely in a very tawdry way.

You bring up a good point. That thing would have sold for a lot of money and very quickly.

 

[Rolfe]

I would have thought that comment was libellous, actually, if it wasn't true. And like you, I assumed that the fact no pictures of that nature were ever published was a pretty fair pointer to its not being true.

Rolfe.

 

[Danceme]

Not only was no picture ever published but no email from frank or document of any sort proving even his quest to find a buyer. If someone makes a claim like that you would think it wouldn't be done without at least a modicum of proof. That is suspicious enough to me to completely discount it as either a lie or completely unfounded and created rumor, which I guess in effect is the same thing.

 

[Justinian2]

Using another common metric of poverty, race, American students still lagged behind. Only forty one percent of white students scored proficient on math. (About 10 percent of white children live in poverty, much lower than the overall rate.) Only 11 percent of black students and 15 percent of Hispanic students scored proficient on math.

Some have wondered about the logic of some posters. Well, logic is taught in math...

 

[LondonJohn]

I would have thought that comment was libellous, actually, if it wasn't true. And like you, I assumed that the fact no pictures of that nature were ever published was a pretty fair pointer to its not being true.

Rolfe.

Oh, definitely libellous if not true (just like allegations of sexual harassment and financial impropriety in relation to a young Finnish/Russian ballet dancer - I wonder how that libel action is going.......).

But it also raises another question: If Sfazo was indeed trying to sell nude photos of Knox to the tabloid press, how could Sfarzo possibly have come to have possession of such photos? It would appear beyond belief that Knox's family or friends would have provided Sfarzo with such material. It would also seem that by far the most likely source of any such photos would have been Knox's digital camera or - more likely - her laptop. It's far from unknown for people of that age to experiment with candid photography for their own use and for the use/gratification of their sexual partners, and these would be by far the most likely places where they would store such photos.

And who was in possession of these items (camera and laptop) from the moment of Knox's arrest? Yup, the "crack" postal police. And Sfarzo does not exactly enjoy a cosy personal relationship with the Perugia law enforcement community. The only other possibility I can think of is that Knox had emailed or passed nude photos of herself to a previous boyfriend (DJ, perhaps) before she came to Italy, or a very marginal possibility that she gave such a nude photo to the guy (Daniele) that she had a one-night-stand with in Italy. But either way, I don't see why either of these two people would want to seek monetary gain from such photos, nor why they would want to use Sfarzo as a conduit instead of ringing up the newspapers themselves.

Is it therefore possible that there indeed were at some point some nude (or semi-nude) photos of Knox were being touted for sale - but that the potential seller wasn't Sfazo, but rather either someone closely connected to the Perugia police, or perhaps even one of the officers him/herself?

 

[RoseMontague]

Is it therefore possible that there indeed were at some point some nude (or semi-nude) photos of Knox were being touted for sale - but that the potential seller wasn't Sfazo, but rather either someone closely connected to the Perugia police, or perhaps even one of the officers him/herself?

Such people would want to destroy the evidence of where they got these photo's. I am certain if the computers that possibly contained such photos were fried we would have heard something about that by now.

 

[HumanityBlues]

Oh, definitely libellous if not true (just like allegations of sexual harassment and financial impropriety in relation to a young Finnish/Russian ballet dancer - I wonder how that libel action is going.......).

But it also raises another question: If Sfazo was indeed trying to sell nude photos of Knox to the tabloid press, how could Sfarzo possibly have come to have possession of such photos? It would appear beyond belief that Knox's family or friends would have provided Sfarzo with such material. It would also seem that by far the most likely source of any such photos would have been Knox's digital camera or - more likely - her laptop. It's far from unknown for people of that age to experiment with candid photography for their own use and for the use/gratification of their sexual partners, and these would be by far the most likely places where they would store such photos.

And who was in possession of these items (camera and laptop) from the moment of Knox's arrest? Yup, the "crack" postal police. And Sfarzo does not exactly enjoy a cosy personal relationship with the Perugia law enforcement community. The only other possibility I can think of is that Knox had emailed or passed nude photos of herself to a previous boyfriend (DJ, perhaps) before she came to Italy, or a very marginal possibility that she gave such a nude photo to the guy (Daniele) that she had a one-night-stand with in Italy. But either way, I don't see why either of these two people would want to seek monetary gain from such photos, nor why they would want to use Sfarzo as a conduit instead of ringing up the newspapers themselves.

Is it therefore possible that there indeed were at some point some nude (or semi-nude) photos of Knox were being touted for sale - but that the potential seller wasn't Sfazo, but rather either someone closely connected to the Perugia police, or perhaps even one of the officers him/herself?

Given the madonna/whore element of this case, I would be shocked if they existed, because the prosecution would have certainly used it against them at trial.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Witches' Holiday

On a discussion board that covered the West Memphis 3 a question was asked in 2006 about the apparent genital mutilation aspect of the crime by someone who was pretty new to the case. A more knowledgeable poster responded in part, "The Prosecution, as far as I know, had no theory as to what they were actually used for, per se, like where are they, but by putting a 'occult expert' on the stand, they asked him questions to which he answered, basically, that the date of the murders was near a 'Witches Holiday', and that the blood is thought to be a source of power by some."

Since that time, the notion that one of the boys was mutilated by the killer has been questioned. This link suggests that animal predation was the explanation for the state of the bodies. My point is that stories about Witches Holidays are fine for campfires, but they are brought up by prosecutors more than they actually happen. The crime was horrific, and the parents must have endured something I cannot imagine, but that does not change fanciful tales about witchcraft into reality. Obviously I see a parallel to the present case, in the allusion to the occult that PM Mignini brought into the pre-trial and (according to Ms. Nadeau's book) wanted to reintroduce in his closing remarks.

 

[LondonJohn]

Not only was no picture ever published but no email from frank or document of any sort proving even his quest to find a buyer. If someone makes a claim like that you would think it wouldn't be done without at least a modicum of proof. That is suspicious enough to me to completely discount it as either a lie or completely unfounded and created rumor, which I guess in effect is the same thing.

The "evidence" for such things is usually "a well-placed and reliable source" - AKA one or other of Ganong's friends: the freelance journalists Andrea Vogt and Barbie Latza Clouseau Nadeau.

Vogt/Nadeau also appear to have provided Ganong with parts of the Conti/Vecchiotti DNA report, information that a potentially-crucial piece of prosecution evidence (a long light-brown hair) was apparently lost by the "crack" forensic team, allegations regarding the circumstances of Sfarzo's arrest, and various other tidbits about the case. But since both Clouseau and Vogt have been shown to have demonstrated the "holy trinity of ineptitude" - ignorance, misinterpretation and confirmation bias - many times during their inglorious reporting stints on this case, I think we can discount most of this "inside info" as unreliable and/or biased.

 

[AmyStrange]

Thank you...

The cell tower never saw that connection.

If we interpolate between the time Sophie left Meredith and the time she is recorded crossing the street we can estimate where Meredith was at the time the call was attempted. What we find there is one of the narrowest streets in Perugia with high walls on either side. Cell phone coverage in this spot could be expected to be spotty.

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Dan,

I'm sure you're busy and I really appreciate that you took the time to get me this information. I will be sure to adjust my time of death arguement to reflect this. Again, thank you,

Dave

 

[LondonJohn]

Given the madonna/whore element of this case, I would be shocked if they existed, because the prosecution would have certainly used it against them at trial.

You're probably correct. My point was more that if such photos had existed, it's most likely that they existed on Knox's laptop (or possibly her camera memory) - and that since these items were in the custody of the postal police from November 6th onwards, any attempted sale would more likely have been conducted by the police or someone closely connected to the police.

The truth is more likely to be that no such photos ever existed in the first place. Although there's also the possibility that an unscrupulous postal officer might have discovered nude photos of Knox on his initial examination of the hard drive, then decided to copy them for himself and delete their presence on Knox's machine. In that way, he could potentially make money for himself by selling the photos (possibly via a friend or other connection), while remaining unlinked to the photos' provenance. If that were the case, then the prosecutors would not have had the photos available to use in evidence, even if they would have wanted to do so.

 

[AmyStrange]

What an awesome crew...

It can get very frustrating trying to conduct a worthwhile debate with people who are either stunningly ignorant of relevant facts, or who have a blinkered agenda that they are determined to follow no matter what.

The ToD issue is a very interesting case study. As you're no doubt well aware, a JREF member who is a prominent pro-guilt commentator employed ignorance and confirmation bias* in a failed attempt to rubbish/denounce/nullify the work that Kevin, I and others had done into ToD. This poster repeatedly claimed - here and elsewhere - that there was no scientific validity to the work done by those of us arguing that the stomach/duodenum/small intestine contents found at autopsy (when considered alongside a likely start time of the last meal of around 6.30pm, and the established fact that the victim was still alive just before 9pm) clearly indicated a ToD before 10pm, and most likely between 9.00 and 9.30pm. The poster implied that we didn't know what we were talking about, that we were dabbling in things we knew nothing about, and that we were ourselves allowing confirmation bias to dictate our conclusions.

-

thank you LJ, Kevin, Rolfe and everyone else for their contributory work in resolving the time of death issue with reference to this case.

Also I would like to send a belated shout-out and thank you to those who helped translate the C&V report and even those who worked on the Massei report and now we have volunteers working on the first trial transcripts.

I am just knocked out by the AWESOME people involved in all this. I am just speechless and have no idea what else to say except that Karma is going to reward all of you big time,

Dave

 

[LondonJohn]

-

Dan,

I'm sure you're busy and I really appreciate that you took the time to get me this information. I will be sure to adjust my time of death arguement to reflect this. Again, thank you,

Dave

This is still not a totally definitively-settled issue. However, it does seem reasonable to suggest that the figure in the grainy CCTV images is Meredith returning to the cottage (there would be little reason for anyone else to be walking on that side of the road at that time, and the image appears to show Meredith's light beige tote bag hanging down in front of her jeans as if she might have removed it from her shoulder to retrieve the door key). And if the time stamp data on the CCTV has been correctly interpreted, it appears that Meredith would have arrived back at the cottage at around 9.03-9.05pm (depending on the precise level of the inaccuracy on the timing clock).

So if all the above is correct and accurate, then Meredith would have most likely made the attempted call to her mother as soon as she split from Sophie Purton at around 8.55pm. It's likely that she would have been walking down Via Pinturicchio at 8.56pm - it's a narrow street with thick stone 4-storey buildings on either side, so it's entirely possible that there were black spots in mobile coverage. It's also of course possible that Meredith started to call her mother, but then decided that she would prefer to wait until she was comfortable at home, and therefore voluntarily terminated the call before connection.

Either way, the striking thing about all this is that if Meredith arrived home at the cottage at around 9.05pm, she never made that call to her mother. She made a point of calling her mother - who was sick and in hospital - every single day, and she had not yet placed a call that day. Italy is one hour ahead of UK time, so Meredith arrived home at around 8.05pm UK time. I think it's reasonable to suggest that Meredith would have been conscious of the need to call her mother before around 10.30pm Italy time (9.30pm UK time) at the latest, and in fact it's reasonable to suggest that Meredith would have wanted to call her mother as soon as possible after getting home. I think this also lends weight to the reason why Meredith tried her mother as soon as she split up with Sophie: she realised that the UK was well into the evening, and she didn't want to leave her call too late.

For this reason, I think it's entirely reasonable to suggest that Meredith would have wanted to call her mother again very shortly after arriving back at the cottage. It makes perfect sense to me that she would have wanted to get in, maybe grab a drink, put the heating on, go to her room and relax on her bed or her chair before calling her mother for her daily chat. Conversely, it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever that Meredith would have loafed around for over two hours (as per Mignini and Massei) without calling her mother back.

And this is one of very many reasons that support a hypothesis that Meredith was confronted and attacked very shortly after arriving home at the cottage at around 9.05pm. And that she was confronted and attacked by one person, wielding a large knife, who became violent and sexually aroused once the situation escalated. And that one person was Rudy Guede.

 

[LondonJohn]

-

thank you LJ, Kevin, Rolfe and everyone else for their contributory work in resolving the time of death issue with reference to this case.

Also I would like to send a belated shout-out and thank you to those who helped translate the C&V report and even those who worked on the Massei report and now we have volunteers working on the first trial transcripts.

I am just knocked out by the AWESOME people involved in all this. I am just speechless and have no idea what else to say except that Karma is going to reward all of you big time,

Dave

It's nice to hear thanks, but I speak for myself when I say that I am not after praise or plaudits. I suppose it will be somewhat satisfying to be vindicated when this is all properly resolved (i.e. when Knox/Sollecito are acquitted, followed hopefully by a number of independent inquiries and public disciplinary hearings), but that's about it.

And there are very many other rational, sceptical, intelligent people posting here who have also figured out that the evidence supports no other possible outcome but acquittal (and it also very probably supports a scenario in which neither Knox nor Sollecito has any involvement whatsoever in the crime). A whole host of people have made interesting and valuable contributions to the debate. To me (and so many others), it's now pretty much beyond doubt that Knox and Sollecito should be acquitted of the crimes with which they were charged. We can only trust a) that we are correct in our assessment, and b) if we are correct, that Hellmann's court comes to what appears to be the only possible verdict: acquittals for Knox and Sollecito.

 

[Malkmus]

You're probably correct. My point was more that if such photos had existed, it's most likely that they existed on Knox's laptop (or possibly her camera memory) - and that since these items were in the custody of the postal police from November 6th onwards, any attempted sale would more likely have been conducted by the police or someone closely connected to the police.

The truth is more likely to be that no such photos ever existed in the first place. Although there's also the possibility that an unscrupulous postal officer might have discovered nude photos of Knox on his initial examination of the hard drive, then decided to copy them for himself and delete their presence on Knox's machine. In that way, he could potentially make money for himself by selling the photos (possibly via a friend or other connection), while remaining unlinked to the photos' provenance. If that were the case, then the prosecutors would not have had the photos available to use in evidence, even if they would have wanted to do so.

I had always assumed actually, that if such pictures existed that they were taken by PLE as part of her examination for injuries (like the photo of the hickey on her neck taken during such examination). I think I got that notion from this post on PMF last year:

No, the photos that the blogger tried to sell to the tabloids were not taken before her arrest. If there are photose of Knox in the nude "out there" for sale, and they were taken before Nov 1, 2007, they are not the same photos as the ones referred to in Barbie Nadeau's article, which a "blogger" tried to sell. That's what I'm saying.

http://perugiamurderfile.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=223&p=43141&hilit=nude#p43141


I can't think of what other photos would have been taken of her after her arrest.

 

[Ampulla of Vater]

If you're referring to the claim that Frank tried to sell nude photos of Amanda, I'm certain I read that a couple of years ago. It's not a new claim although the source could be the same, I don't remember. Anyways, even then I never saw any proof, and I'd hazard a guess if he actually had any he would have found a buyer no matter the price and we would know of it by now, likely in a very tawdry way.

Not to mention if he had really done this then I somehow doubt that #9 would be true. I'm not sure why Chris Mellas would be "associated with" someone who tried to sell nude pictures of Amanda.

 

[RoseMontague]

I had always assumed actually, that if such pictures existed that they were taken by PLE as part of her examination for injuries (like the photo of the hickey on her neck taken during such examination). I think I got that notion from this post on PMF last year:




http://perugiamurderfile.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=223&p=43141&hilit=nude#p43141


I can't think of what other photos would have been taken of her after her arrest.

Well they did seem to be rather protective of other people taking pictures of her around that time.

 

[LondonJohn]

I had always assumed actually, that if such pictures existed that they were taken by PLE as part of her examination for injuries (like the photo of the hickey on her neck taken during such examination). I think I got that notion from this post on PMF last year:




http://perugiamurderfile.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=223&p=43141&hilit=nude#p43141


I can't think of what other photos would have been taken of her after her arrest.

Interesting. Very interesting. So if the photos in question were indeed post-arrest police shots of Knox's naked torso/body, well.... the first thing that comes to mind is that they would hardly have been very erotic: a stone-faced Knox standing in front of harsh police examination lights in an office, interview room or custody suite, face-on, side-on, back-to-camera.

But then the important questions start: how and why would such photos have leaked from the police? Who would have leaked them? Who would have had access to them within the police/prosecutor investigating team? How and why would the photos have even ended up in the hands of Sfarzo?

 

[AmyStrange]

Makes sense to me also...

And this is one of very many reasons that support a hypothesis that Meredith was confronted and attacked very shortly after arriving home at the cottage at around 9.05pm. And that she was confronted and attacked by one person, wielding a large knife, who became violent and sexually aroused once the situation escalated. And that one person was Rudy Guede.

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LJ,

I was thinking (and remembering) something else when I made my time of death theory about the interrupted call and I really have no problem with acknowledging my mistakes, especially when folks are so nice about it and willing to take the time to explain in detail.

Again thank you LJ and Dan,

Dave