Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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A poster at another site has listed some negative credentials on Frank and one of these is quite "shocking".

The old lady finally lost her marbles completely. I don't see how Peggy could come up with something so vile and insane. It must be the summer heat and the building up of pressure and agitation in anticipation of the inevitable.
Let's see how she's going to support her accusation.

BTW I see a lot of agitation at the .org today. Some catfights about the translations :)
 
Keep in mind this person hinted that the mafia might have influence over the strange actions of the independent experts.

Yes, mafia, masons and scientologists (sic!) plus the conspiracy of conservative Catholic establishment from Seattle or something like that. And they're all there to get her.
 
Any Italian speakers that want to help with this, please send me a PM. This might be a really long term thing with just one day's testimony averaging 150 pages. I only have about 20% of the transcripts (so far).

Wow! I am very impressed, I didn't know all this was available, did it just become so? I was wondering where it was all coming from.
 
Wow! I am very impressed, I didn't know all this was available, did it just become so? I was wondering where it was all coming from.

I can't claim any credit on this one.

I will say I have several volunteers already and hopefully more to come. Even if we don't get it all, I will make public what transcripts I do have.
 
Really? Here's a picture of the places they were found. Rudy's are the ones in red. Care to explain how he got from opposite Amanda's door to the entrance of the living area without leaving prints between them? Want to explain how he left right foorprints in the living area, but only left footprints in the hall?



Care to explain the 2 groups of 3 prints in the living area? Did Rudy have three feet?



Care to prove that the footprint is Amanda's? This was never done in court, the prosecution simply claomed that it was.


First of all, your diagrams wrong, where did you get it from, Rudy left no prints in the bathroom, secondly, all the shoe prints are left foot of Rudy's, the prints clearly show he was running out of Meredith's room and stopped in the living room probably to put his coat back on that Amanda had hung up for him. Rudy clearly did not stop to lock Meredith's door no matter how you want to spin it but at the same time I know you people can not accept this, because it means Amanda is GUILTY to some degree, Good day sir.
 
What time do you estimate Amanda hung up Rudy's coat for him? What time do you estimate she locked the door?

Rolfe.
 
what do you mean by reliable?

bucketoftea,

By using the advanced search function I found up to fourteen comments I have made that were addressed to you. You have only addressed a fraction of them. May I suggest you start with the one below and document what you mean by reliable with citations, as I and others have done. Thank you.

bucketoftea,

Whether something is reliable or not depends upon that with which it is compared. Just repeating the word "reliable" over and over does not advance an argument, IMO. Do you acknowledge that GI contents give any information at all? If so, what specifically do they indicate or not indicate?
 
Any Italian speakers that want to help with this, please send me a PM. This might be a really long term thing with just one day's testimony averaging 150 pages. I only have about 20% of the transcripts (so far).

rose, this is great... Curious though if this is appeals testimony or first trial testimony? Thanks!
 
Any Italian speakers that want to help with this, please send me a PM. This might be a really long term thing with just one day's testimony averaging 150 pages. I only have about 20% of the transcripts (so far).


I'd be happy to try to help - although I fear that my conversational Italian might struggle when faced with the amount of arcane legalese jargon and fractured sentences. I suspect that the job is better carried out either by native English speakers with an academic fluency in Italian, or by native Italian speakers with a good knowledge of English. Maybe some of the more collegiate and higher-integrity members of another forum might want to contribute to the team?
 
First of all, your diagrams wrong, where did you get it from, Rudy left no prints in the bathroom, secondly, all the shoe prints are left foot of Rudy's, the prints clearly show he was running out of Meredith's room and stopped in the living room probably to put his coat back on that Amanda had hung up for him. Rudy clearly did not stop to lock Meredith's door no matter how you want to spin it but at the same time I know you people can not accept this, because it means Amanda is GUILTY to some degree, Good day sir.


1) Guede left a partial print in a dilute mixture of blood and water on the bathmat in the small bathroom. Regardless of the incorrect conclusion drawn in Massei's court, this issue will almost certainly be corrected in Hellmann's court.

2) On what evidence do you base your seemingly-confident assertion that Guede "clearly did not stop to lock Meredith's door"? Even if this action did not happen on the occasion when Guede tracked the faint blood shoe prints down the hallway, why is it not possible that Guede then returned to Meredith's room - after all the blood on his shoe had been deposited onto the floor, therefore leaving no prints? In fact, as I argued a day or so ago, it's entirely possible that Guede either forgot that he needed a key to open the front door, or that he had never realised this prior to the confrontation/attack on Meredith. If that were the case, then Guede would almost necessarily have walked/run from Meredith's room towards the front door, then would have had to return to Meredith's room to find and retrieve the key he now knew he needed to open the front door.

3) Who are "you people"? That's a worryingly segregationalist phrase, which is more redolent of a hate group than someone simply debating a murder case.
 
I'd be happy to try to help - although I fear that my conversational Italian might struggle when faced with the amount of arcane legalese jargon and fractured sentences. I suspect that the job is better carried out either by native English speakers with an academic fluency in Italian, or by native Italian speakers with a good knowledge of English. Maybe some of the more collegiate and higher-integrity members of another forum might want to contribute to the team?

What some posters may not be aware of is that a good portion of the Massei report was translated by non-Italian speakers. Your offer is accepted. Expect to receive your first bill within a few weeks.

Any poster on any forum is welcome.
 
First of all, your diagrams wrong, where did you get it from, Rudy left no prints in the bathroom, secondly, all the shoe prints are left foot of Rudy's, the prints clearly show he was running out of Meredith's room and stopped in the living room probably to put his coat back on that Amanda had hung up for him. Rudy clearly did not stop to lock Meredith's door no matter how you want to spin it but at the same time I know you people can not accept this, because it means Amanda is GUILTY to some degree, Good day sir.

The diagram with evidence and pictures the cops presented in court doesn't even match the diagram presented by the prosecution's footprint expert. No need to get upset that we have yet another diagram that is different from the (many) others.
 
Looking at Rudy's history it seems he didn't like school and dropped out.

The claim that Guede can't speak English appears to have come from Madison Paxton who travelled over to Italy to be with Amanda after the killing.
Well I'm sure she had quite the few conversations with him!

Danceme,

..... If you were asking the defense to say which substance it was, that would be reversing the burden of proof.

No, not the defense, unless Kaosium is actually one of the lawyers!

Prof Tower (Google translation)

This is very interesting. I wonder if it is worthwhile to look at this luminol print in comparison to Amanda's reference footprint as closely as we have looked at the bathmat print comparisons?

Definitely worth doing Rose. If I wasn't almost exclusively using my iPad these days I would attempt it too but I'm lacking suitable programs.

The old lady finally lost her marbles completely. I don't see how Peggy could come up with something so vile and insane. It must be the summer heat and the building up of pressure and agitation in anticipation of the inevitable.
Let's see how she's going to support her accusation.

BTW I see a lot of agitation at the .org today. Some catfights about the translations :)

If you're referring to the claim that Frank tried to sell nude photos of Amanda, I'm certain I read that a couple of years ago. It's not a new claim although the source could be the same, I don't remember. Anyways, even then I never saw any proof, and I'd hazard a guess if he actually had any he would have found a buyer no matter the price and we would know of it by now, likely in a very tawdry way.
 
Your characterisation of the evidential value of GI contents is simplistic, naive and poorly informed. In other words, I'm afraid you have no idea at all what you're talking about.

Rolfe.


It can get very frustrating trying to conduct a worthwhile debate with people who are either stunningly ignorant of relevant facts, or who have a blinkered agenda that they are determined to follow no matter what.

The ToD issue is a very interesting case study. As you're no doubt well aware, a JREF member who is a prominent pro-guilt commentator employed ignorance and confirmation bias* in a failed attempt to rubbish/denounce/nullify the work that Kevin, I and others had done into ToD. This poster repeatedly claimed - here and elsewhere - that there was no scientific validity to the work done by those of us arguing that the stomach/duodenum/small intestine contents found at autopsy (when considered alongside a likely start time of the last meal of around 6.30pm, and the established fact that the victim was still alive just before 9pm) clearly indicated a ToD before 10pm, and most likely between 9.00 and 9.30pm. The poster implied that we didn't know what we were talking about, that we were dabbling in things we knew nothing about, and that we were ourselves allowing confirmation bias to dictate our conclusions.

The next bit was the most interesting: this poster knew that you had medical qualifications, and that you were a reasonable and logical person. He therefore assumed that you would be more than happy to weigh in on his side: to chastise and criticise Kevin, me and others here for our cod-knowledge of pathology and gastro-intestinal physiology, and our ludicrously incorrect deductions. This would then give this poster the "seal of approval" he wanted in order to fully ridicule this argument.

Instead, quite the opposite actually happened. You belatedly had a look at the evidence, and used your knowledge, experience and reason to conclude that the argument put forward by Kevin, I and others here was in fact essentially entirely correct. And you were quite happy both to endorse the argument, and to use it as a key factor in your own reasoning on the wider issue of the guilt/non-guilt of Knox and Sollecito. And this particular pro-guilt commentator does not now seem fit to respect your opinion on the matter - and nor do a bunch of similarly ill-informed and/or confirmation-biased pro-guilt commentators.

The fact remains that Kevin, I and others bothered to do some decent and scientifically-robust research into this subject, and came to the objective conclusion that the available evidence clearly showed that Meredith had to have died well before 10pm - and most likely between 9.00 and 9.30pm. What's more, this pathology-based view clearly tends to be corroborated by other important factors: notably Meredith's failure to call her mother back after the aborted 8.56pm call, the fact that she was still wearing her outer jacket and trainers when she was attacked, and (significantly) Guede placing her scream at "around 9.20pm" in his Skype conversation. As you say, Massei's court (and to a certain extent the defence teams) made a serious error in placing the ToD at 11.45pm. I am highly confident that this is one of very many issues that Hellmann's court will correct in the appeal trial.

* And yes, I do know exactly what "confirmation bias" means and where it should correctly be applied. The simple truth is that the term is applicable to huge swathes of pro-guilt "arguments" - since they simply do not stand up to any decent disinterested scrutiny. It's therefore clear that those making the "arguments" are either ignorant or they are willfully shaping their arguments to fit with prior beliefs. And that would be confirmation bias. But I always appreciate getting patronising lectures on how and when to use the phrase, from people whose opinions I don't respect......
 
Uh, yes, basically. I'm sorry I didn't read any of the stuff you and Kevin posted, either at the time or belatedly. This thread has always had a tendency to grow faster than I could read it, so I didn't.

I just happened across a description of the post mortem findings in the Massei/Mignini thread which I was reading in an idle moment, and of course it was completely obvious what the situation was. What I couldn't get my brain round were the irrational convulsions of those who sought to deny the bleedin' obvious.

Of course she died between nine and nine-thirty. It's a no-brainer.

Rolfe.
 
Grease is the word

No, not the defense, unless Kaosium is actually one of the lawyers!
Dancme,

If you want to ask someone to speculate what the substance might be, OK, I can see the point of thinking about this question as an intellectual exercise. However, the prosecution failed to demonstrate that it was blood, Ms. Comodi's nonsense to the contrary notwithstanding. Moreover, the number of things that might have caused the footprints is large enough to make proving that it was blood by exclusion of all other substances a Sisyphean task. If the jury thought that it was demonstrated that the footprints were set in blood, then they were mistaken. MOO.
 
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Uh, yes, basically. I'm sorry I didn't read any of the stuff you and Kevin posted, either at the time or belatedly. This thread has always had a tendency to grow faster than I could read it, so I didn't.

I just happened across a description of the post mortem findings in the Massei/Mignini thread which I was reading in an idle moment, and of course it was completely obvious what the situation was. What I couldn't get my brain round were the irrational convulsions of those who sought to deny the bleedin' obvious.

Of course she died between nine and nine-thirty. It's a no-brainer.

Rolfe.


Oh - no need at all to apologise in any way! We already knew that our research and conclusions were scientific, well-reasoned, robust and defensible. And IIRC, a forensic pathologist had also endorsed our arguments before you came to the very same conclusions. It was (and still is) terribly sad and depressing to see people try to dismiss such arguments purely on the basis that those making the arguments aren't specifically qualified in the relevant fields.

I (and others making the same argument) were perfectly prepared for others to attack the argument itself, so long as they presented evidence that refuted the argument. The fact that they not only didn't manage to do so, but that also they chose to make ridiculous ad hominem attacks on those arguing for a 9.00-9.30 ToD as "library card Google-de-gookers" who did not know what they were talking about, speaks volumes in my opinion.
 
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