Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

Status
Not open for further replies.
Amanda testified that she was introduced to Rudy, she saw him maybe once at Le Chic and might have seen him around the neighborhood a few times. This in the space of three months.

Thus she interacted with him all of once for a few seconds and saw him around about as often as you do your garbageman in a month. So saying she didn't know him is perfectly correct. She didn't even remember his name.

How well do you know your garbageman?

Quite right.

When asked for a list of characters who could be considered suspects in her 'interview' Amanda did offer Rudy as one, but said the South African guy (which he isn't, but it's who she meant)

Pointing out that R & A are innocent of this crime is starting to become slightly boring due to it's obviousness.

What would be a lot more interesting would be to see people like Mignini and Steff get really hammered for their involvement in the case.

They should too. They deserve it.....
 
Last edited:
Thank you...

There is nothing wrong with your roommate quotes. They add a he said/she said dynamic to your posts that I enjoy. Continue on.
-

Draca,

I appreciate it, but I like this thread and I just don't want to cause any unnecessary trouble, but again thank you,

Dave
 
I appreciate your understanding Mary H...

Thanks for the explanation, Dave.

[...]

I guess the point is, while I admire you for not wanting to take credit for her input, I don't see why we should care about her opinion if she doesn't participate on the board.

I'm glad you joined the discussion; you've had a lot of good things to say.

Personally, I ignore any thread that doesn't interest me. I even believe in telepathy.
-

and for taking the time to explain also, and I hope you didn't take offense at what I said. I enjoy your post very much also as I do everyone's here. Even the pro-guilters. They make me think and although it was so much easier to just believe in stuff and not have to explain it so it made sense, being skeptical (and having to prove what I believed) added more substance and weight to whatever it is I had to say about it.

When someone ask me a tough question about my belief, I am at least prepared to give a reasonable answer rather than just stutter uh uh uh, or even worse tried to unlock my brain freeze as all the chirp chirp chirping went on around me (a tip of the hat to whomever wrote "chirp chirp chirp" originally in this forum a few days ago. Sorry, can't remember who off hand).

You might be right about my quoting, and I'm too lazy to look it up, and if I am wrong, I apologize for my mistake and hope you can forgive me,

Dave

P.S. I believe in telepathy also
 
It diverted from what I was talking about.

If Edda or Janet ever actually did say that Amanda had never even met Rudy, then I am sure they said it because they believed it at the time. As we all know, there has been a lot of misinformation, misunderstanding and misinterpretation about the case floating around from Day One. I doubt Edda and Janet still hold to that position.

If you are interested in people misleading other people by conveying information they are not 100% sure about, look no further than the day Perugian authorites announced, "Caso chiuso!"

I think that means they were correct, as it happens, not so Edda and Janet. This does certainly suggest that Amanda told her mother (Edda) that she had never met Guede. Edda having spoken to Amanda and all, whereas Ciolino; no.

Did Ciolino just make it up because it is so much more emphatic (and distancing) than if she knew him but, ya know, not very well.

Ciolino must have been informed by Edda, Janet or other family member? Or was Ciolino misinforming the family? Or did AK originally tell her parents that she'd never met Guede.

Where did this substantial error occur? It was most likely AK lied to parents on this point and it spread from there, or is Ciolino using his hyperbole license and it was repeated by E and J because it sounded better to them?

"Misspoken" has the most ridiculous misapplications.
 
I think that means they were correct, as it happens, not so Edda and Janet. This does certainly suggest that Amanda told her mother (Edda) that she had never met Guede. Edda having spoken to Amanda and all, whereas Ciolino; no.

Did Ciolino just make it up because it is so much more emphatic (and distancing) than if she knew him but, ya know, not very well.

Ciolino must have been informed by Edda, Janet or other family member? Or was Ciolino misinforming the family? Or did AK originally tell her parents that she'd never met Guede.

Where did this substantial error occur? It was most likely AK lied to parents on this point and it spread from there, or is Ciolino using his hyperbole license and it was repeated by E and J because it sounded better to them?

"Misspoken" has the most ridiculous misapplications.

Yawn. Does any of this matter? :confused:
 
Retc said:

"So without knowing anything more on your posting, I would simply say that this news report you mention of just leads me to believe that Amanda Knox was acquainted with someone who, possibly, might have been dealing drugs. Big deal..."

I have yet to see any evidence at all that RG dealt drugs. If there were any, why would I assume any AK wrongdoing by way of her acquaintance with Rudy. I never suggested such a thing. nor did I say AK used cocaine.

Why the "never even met"?? Ciolino makes it up? Probably not, but who knows.

It looks much more likely that AK said this to her parents and they repeated to Ciolino. AK was lying to distance herself from Guede. Simple.
 
Last edited:
Indeed. Does it matter?

You tell me. It seems to have little or nothing to do with whether Knox or Sollecito murdered Kercher, considering that she almost certainly died at a time when they can demonstrate they were somewhere else. But no doubt somebody or other saying she "never met Guede" when he probably should have said "barely met Guede" is sufficient proof to condemn her to 26 years in prison.

So, "case closed!!", eh?
 
Foot prints are not missing

Really? Here's a picture of the places they were found. Rudy's are the ones in red. Care to explain how he got from opposite Amanda's door to the entrance of the living area without leaving prints between them? Want to explain how he left right foorprints in the living area, but only left footprints in the hall?

Rudy's clearly show he left the bedroom and went straight out the front door

Care to explain the 2 groups of 3 prints in the living area? Did Rudy have three feet?

Amanda does have a footprint pointing towards Meredith's though.

Care to prove that the footprint is Amanda's? This was never done in court, the prosecution simply claomed that it was.
 
I think that means they were correct, as it happens, not so Edda and Janet.

Even you can't think they were correct about Patrick Lumumba.

This does certainly suggest that Amanda told her mother (Edda) that she had never met Guede. Edda having spoken to Amanda and all, whereas Ciolino; no.

"Suggest" is not a strong basis for an accusation.

Did Ciolino just make it up because it is so much more emphatic (and distancing) than if she knew him but, ya know, not very well.

We don't know that he made it up. Maybe it was simply his understanding at the time.

Ciolino must have been informed by Edda, Janet or other family member? Or was Ciolino misinforming the family? Or did AK originally tell her parents that she'd never met Guede.

No one here knows the answers to these questions. If you're interested, maybe you should send an e-mail to these people and ask them.

Where did this substantial error occur? It was most likely AK lied to parents on this point and it spread from there, or is Ciolino using his hyperbole license and it was repeated by E and J because it sounded better to them?

"Misspoken" has the most ridiculous misapplications.

Amanda would have no reason to mislead anybody about whether or not she knew Rudy, because the truth would eventually come out, whether she was guilty or not guilty. She testified in court that she knew Rudy; that is the only thing we have on record about this issue.

Whether anyone else said Amanda did not know Rudy is irrelevant, not "substantial."
 
So Amanda was a close friend to Meredith? Fine. Top scientists are now learning that affection ain't always a deterrent to violence. At times even a catalyst?..........


Isakin Jonsson was arrested last November after calling police from his apartment in Skara in central Sweden and explaining that he had killed his 40-year-old girlfriend.

He had also cut off her head and other parts of her body, some of which he then ate.

He was also unable to explain the gruesome killing when asked by prosecutors why he did it.

"That's something I also wonder about. ...There was no motive whatsoever. We were a couple with a future together. I've never felt this way with a girl before," he said.


See: Hungry For You

///

It was a very common motive for the actual killing, it's the cannibalism he can't explain. (Other than he said he wanted to experience the taste.)

It was just a case of domestic violence with a bizarre twist. The guy obviously has grave mental issues and there were drugs involved. There's a history of problems in both the murderers and the victims life.

It really underlines why this case is different. A young woman with no criminal background rarely or never kill another young woman and so on (well you know the argument.) But maybe that was your point? :)
 
Last edited:
Insofar as whether heroin causes hallucinations, Curatolo is absolutely right. Heroin no more causes hallucinations than paracetamol or any other non-hallucinogenic drug for that matter.

A drug user who only uses heroin is a rare beast, criminologically speaking, and heroin addicts are typically polydrug users, which is a fancy way of saying they will shove anything they can get into their nose, mouth or arm. So it's more likely that Curatolo was on LSD or something on any given night than a randomly selected member of the population, if that's all we know about him, but not greatly so.

Some forms of mental illness can cause hallucinations as well but I am not aware that Curatolo has been diagnosed with any such condition.

His track record of popping up with just the witness statements the Perugia police needed is also hard to reconcile with the theory that he was randomly hallucinating, whether because of drugs or some underlying condition.

I think a far more likely story is just that Curatolo was extremely vulnerable to "suggestions" or coercion by the police that he come forward with some kind of story placing Knox and Sollecito outside their house at a particular time.


My first response to your post above only addressed the hallucination angle. But reading it again this morning prompted another thought about Curatolo - one that's been discussed here before, but which merits revisiting.

I believe it's highly possible that Curatolo was essentially under the control of the Perugia police in November 2007 (and long before and long after that time). I think the evidence to support that assertion revolves around his subsequent drug-dealing arrest and conviction. As far as can be ascertained, the allegations that led to his conviction dated from 2004. If so, then the fact that he was not even arrested for the offences until January 2011 has to raise serious questions. And the questions become even more pressing when it appears that the police had cast-iron evidence of Curatolo's criminal offences in the form of video recordings of him dealing, and (most likely, based on the known evidence) a police plant/informant who actually bought the heroin from him. And the police would have had all this evidence in their hands way back in 2004.

Therefore, the most obvious - and damning - question is this: if the police had such hard evidence of Curatolo's heroin dealing in 2004, why was he not arrested and prosecuted until 2011? And the only answer that makes any sense whatsoever is that the police/prosecutors deliberately and consciously decided not to arrest/prosecute Curatolo for some reason.

So the next question would be: why would they decide to hold back on arresting/prosecuting Curatolo? And the only reasonable answer would be this: they wanted to hold the threat of prosecution/conviction over Curatolo in return for his agreeing to help them in some way..

So this in turn leads to the next question: how could Curatolo help the Perugia police/prosecutors to such an extent that they would be willing to hold back on pressing serious criminal charges against him? Again, I think the only reasonable answer is this: Curatolo agreed to be a police informant on the many drug dealers operating in the vicinity of Piazza Grimana, in return for a deferment of the heroin-dealing charges.

When you stop to go through all this in a reasoned and logical manner, this appears to be one of the very few (if not the only) explanations that makes any sense. Curatolo lived in Piazza Grimana, and therefore had constant surveillance capabilities. In addition, his personal circumstances and appearance would give him excellent cover to spy upon - and report back to the police on - all the drug-dealing activities taking place in the vicinity of his park bench. I think that this is very likely to be what happened: the police/prosecutors called Curatolo in for a "polite chat" some time in late 2004; they presented him with the evidence of his heroin-dealing activities; they then told him that they would be willing to hold back on arresting and charging him, so long as he agreed to be a police informant in the war on organised drug gangs.

I think that a person in Curatolo's position would jump at the chance to take such a deal. I think that it made him beholden to the police/prosecutors in many ways. And I think it leads directly to the last link in the puzzle:

By November 2007, Curatolo would have been acting as an informant for some three years (according to my theory). It's likely that his usefulness to the police/prosecutors could have been waning, and/or that they were finding out that he was an unreliable/incompetent informant, partly owing to his continued use of heroin. So when the Meredith Kercher murder occurred, I think it's very possible that the police/prosecutors had another "friendly chat" with Curatolo. I think that in this conversation, they could have told him that they now wanted his assistance in the murder investigation. I think they could again have used the drug charges as currency, in order to "persuade" Curatolo to "remember" seeing Knox and Sollecito on the night of the murder. Essentally, the police/prosecutors could have said something along the following lines to Curatolo: "Agree to become a prosecution witness against Knox and Sollecito, or we'll arrest and charge you immediately on the heroin-dealing charges."

I think that this is how Curatolo came to be in the witness box in Massei's court, with his ludicrously inept and contradictory tale of seeing Knox and Sollecito on the evening/night of November 1st/2nd 2007. I further think that the police/prosecutors realised that Curatolo had made a terrible witness, and it's also possible that news of the police/prosecutor knowledge of his heroin dealing way back in 2004 had somehow come to light (maybe through a leak, or through defence investigations in advance of the appeal). I think that by January 2011 the police and prosecutors therefore decided that they had no option but to pull Curatolo in on these heroin-dealing charges.
 
LJ,

makes sense, but let me play devil's advocate here. In your scenario above, why wouldn't he then just leave the way he came in --Filomena's window?

Dave

-


Others have given pretty good answers to your question before I read the board this morning, but I will supplement their answers by trying to paint a picture of Guede's options and risks after the murder:

Firstly, Guede would have been standing in the cottage at around 10pm, having gruesomely murdered Meredith and sexually assaulted her (probably as she lay dying). He had partially cleaned himself up, and now desperately needed to get away from the cottage to the safety of his own apartment.

Now, whichever way he left the cottage, Guede would have reasoned that he had a chance of being seen. But now consider his two reasonable options for exiting the cottage: a) through Filomena's window, then either climbing or jumping down to the sloping ground below; or b) through the front door, provided he could open it.

If Guede left through Filomena's window, not only would this be a somewhat difficult exit (as others have pointed out), but to my mind there would also have been significant additional risks. If someone either walking/driving down the road outside the cottage or looking down from the apartment blocks had seen someone climbing out of a window, it's entirely logical to assume that this would set off alarm bells in their minds*. It's therefore entirely possible that any such witnesses might either continue to watch (and/or follow) Guede, or that they might immediately call the police, or even that they might challenge Guede directly if they were on foot or in a car right outside the cottage.

However, if Guede chose to exit via the front door, then even if there were people driving/walking down the road or glancing out of their apartment windows, they would not register anything unusual whatsoever about a man leaving a house by the front door (even if he left in a hurried manner). It's true that such people might have subsequently been able to identify Guede once the murder was discovered - but this was a risk that Guede could not do anything about, no matter which way he left the cottage. But by exiting through the door, Guede would have minimised (actually, eliminated) the chance of immediate suspicion and consequent confrontation or alerting of the police.

So when you think about it in these terms, the door is by far Guede's best option for exiting the cottage. Furthermore, once he realised that he needed a key to open the door from the inside, he knew (since Meredith had come through the front door) that Meredith had the necessary key to enable him to exit through the same door. All he needed to do, therefore, was to find the key, and he knew he'd be able to unlock the front door and exit via the least conspicuous route. The small additional time and effort needed to find the key (which Guede would know would be fairly easy to find either in Meredith's pockets, in her bag, or on a surface in her room) was nothing in comparison to the advantages to Guede of leaving via the front door rather than via Filomena's window.

* Note that while similar risks apply to Guede's entry through the same window, he had no option but to break-in through a window (since he knew that he couldn't possibly open the front door from outside). And in addition - as others have pointed out - even if the alarm were raised by somebody who witnessed him climbing through Filomena's window, he had only committed a relatively minor crime by this point. On the way out of the cottage, he was now a murderer, and the stakes were therefore much, much higher.
 
Last edited:
Indeed. Does it matter?...the truth came out in the end :D

AK knew RG well enough for chitchat and smoking up. Not a stranger at all.

Not quite, if you read the testimony carefully, no one ever said Amanda smoked the spinello with Rudy, just that a spinello was smoked at the same party that Amanda was introduced to Rudy. That's notable because if they had evidence of her actually smoking it with Rudy you'd sure think they'd have put a witness on the stand to testify to that 'damning' fact. For crissakes they inquired into her underwear purchases in court, if they had any reason to think Amanda had 'done drugs' with the murderer they'd have feted that 'superwitness' for a week and given them the keys to the city!

So why did they rely on sleazy lawyer tricks to try to imply Amanda smoked the spinello with Rudy, rather than just put a witness on the stand to testify to that fact, or ask her point blank if she had smoked it with Rudy?
 
Last edited:
You tell me. It seems to have little or nothing to do with whether Knox or Sollecito murdered Kercher, considering that she almost certainly died at a time when they can demonstrate they were somewhere else. But no doubt somebody or other saying she "never met Guede" when he probably should have said "barely met Guede" is sufficient proof to condemn her to 26 years in prison.

So, "case closed!!", eh?

They could have said "barely knew", but they didn't. They said "never even met"

You are being a little naughty, IMO. That is not a sole basis for anything except that it shows someone was dishonestly misrepresenting AK's relationship to the owner of the palm print in the victim's blood. I think it was most likely AK herself, although it could have been Ciolino's creative urge getting the better of him.

I can't bring myself to condemn the "case closed" remark because it has been thoroughly vindicated. The authorities have my admiration for investigating thoroughly and not doing it the most convenient (and crooked) way by being satisfied with an African man under arrest. (which is exactly what AK and RS hoped/expected they would)
 
They could have said "barely knew", but they didn't. They said "never even met"

You are being a little naughty, IMO. That is not a sole basis for anything except that it shows someone was dishonestly misrepresenting AK's relationship to the owner of the palm print in the victim's blood. I think it was most likely AK herself, although it could have been Ciolino's creative urge getting the better of him.

I can't bring myself to condemn the "case closed" remark because it has been thoroughly vindicated. The authorities have my admiration for investigating thoroughly and not doing it the most convenient (and crooked) way by being satisfied with an African man under arrest. (which is exactly what AK and RS hoped/expected they would)

Even Mignini thinks the case closed comment was crazy, as he indicated in the Bob Graham interview.

As far as Amanda and the fact that she knew who Rudy was and had seen him on one occasion at a party and another at Patrick's bar compared to her parent's version, I don't see what the point is.

Maybe her parents got it wrong. It does not change reality.
 
They could have said "barely knew", but they didn't. They said "never even met"

You are being a little naughty, IMO. That is not a sole basis for anything except that it shows someone was dishonestly misrepresenting AK's relationship to the owner of the palm print in the victim's blood. I think it was most likely AK herself, although it could have been Ciolino's creative urge getting the better of him.

It also amounts to roughly the same thing too, doesn't it? Outside the fifteen seconds necessary for the introduction where she didn't remember his name? If you go to a wedding or a funeral and have the 'pleasure' of being in the receiving line you might 'meet' hundreds of people, might even see them around a few times during the reception, or wake, but a month later might not even realize you 'met' them. Rudy was kind of distinctive for the neighborhood but she couldn't even give more than a vague description when questioned.

I can't bring myself to condemn the "case closed" remark because it has been thoroughly vindicated. The authorities have my admiration for investigating thoroughly and not doing it the most convenient (and crooked) way by being satisfied with an African man under arrest. (which is exactly what AK and RS hoped/expected they would)

We can have some fun with this one! :)

Of the 'evidence' produced by this 'thorough' investigation before Matteini, how much of it would you say is 'evidence' of the guilt of Raffaele, Amanda and Patrick in the murder of Meredith Kercher? A rough percentage off the top of your head will do, some specific examples would be nice as well.

If you're having trouble with this one perhaps the 'thoroughly vindicated' assessment of the 'cased closed' statement is premature... :cool:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom