Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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burden of proof

Kaosium, I've seen you write this and link this study many times before but I've often wondered if you read the conclusion where the author notes that of the 250 substances tested in the study, 240 do not produce sufficiently intense luminescence to easily be mistaken for blood. Nine apparently do, which are the oft quoted turnips, horseradish, bleach etc. If the footprints are completely unrelated to the crime then is it reasonable to conclude by their strong reaction to luminol that they must be made in one of the nine? And because we know bleach dissipates rather quickly and would not be a source of interference so long after the crime, we can discount it, leaving 8 plausible substances which may have caused the reaction. Of these which do you think it was?
Danceme,

I see no reason to conclude that the list of 250 items is a complete survey of all household products. Indeed, given that there are likely to be differences from one country to another, I think it is not. However, the real problem here is that the forensic police did not follow up their presumptive tests with any confirmatory test (neither TMB nor DNA profiling is confirmatory of blood). If you were asking the defense to say which substance it was, that would be reversing the burden of proof.
 
please be more specific

Rolfe = not an amateur vet

Rolfe et al = amateurs in the fields relevant to the investigation.

GI contents have not been regarded as reliable for years.

bucketoftea,

Whether something is reliable or not depends upon that with which it is compared. Just repeating the word "reliable" over and over does not advance an argument, IMO. Do you acknowledge that GI contents give any information at all? If so, what specifically do they indicate or not indicate?
 
Deal Frees ‘West Memphis Three’ in Arkansas



This is overwhelming. It's hard to even imagine what it is like to be freed after 18 years behind bars without guilt.
wm3.org



Bruce's new article:

What do the West Memphis Three and Amanda Knox Have in Common?

Thank you so much for flagging this. It is, as you say, almost overwhelming (at least, for anyone 'invested' in the case).

FANTASTIC news.

I watched "Paradise Lost" back in the mid-90's, when (IIRC) channel 4 showed it, bought it (and the follow up) on DVD in 2008 to get other people informed about the case..

I wonder if the prime-suspect is now going to be investigated? I noticed that he changed his (phoney) tune some years back, becoming an advocate for innocence, presumably having noticed the way the wind was blowing.
 
I wonder if the prime-suspect is now going to be investigated? I noticed that he changed his (phoney) tune some years back, becoming an advocate for innocence, presumably having noticed the way the wind was blowing.


No chance. They took a very bizarre version of an "Alford plea", and agreed to be held legally guilty while still being allowed to protest their innocence.

This saves the authorities from having to worry that they might sue for compensation, and from the trouble and expense of re-opening the investigation.

Rolfe.
 
I've explained countless times that I'm trained in forensic post mortem work and frequently appear in court in that context.

GI contents may or may not give a reliable indication of time of death. It depends entirely on the particular circumstances of the individual death. This particular case is one of those in which the GI contents provide an unusually good indication of time of death.

And your amateur opinion doesn't change that.

Rolfe.

Sez you, I'm afraid, as to whether this particular case is an exception.


Of course I am a amateur, but common sense dictates against your view. Youdid not conduct the investigations. I'm afraid even a vet pathologist does not hold any weight in a human murder case.
 
You didn't conduct the post mortem either. However, it was videotaped, and the evidence was clear that proper procedure was followed. That being so, it hardly takes an intellectual giant to follow the evidence to its rational conclusion.

As an amateur, you don't seem to be applying the most basic common sense to follow what is in fact a very straightforward argument. I'm afraid that your amateurish and ill-informed comments really merit no more than a return of your childish "sez you!" comment.

Rolfe.
 
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No chance. They took a very bizarre version of an "Alford plea", and agreed to be held legally guilty while still being allowed to protest their innocence.

This saves the authorities from having to worry that they might sue for compensation, and from the trouble and expense of re-opening the investigation.

Rolfe.

Wishful thinking on my part - you're right, of course.

Not only have 3 young men (one of whom clearly has a very good mind which, fortunately, he doesn't seem to have lost) had so many years taken form them in the most heinous way, but the perpetrator(s) of this truly horrendous crime will never be caught (barring some even more extraordinary turns of events).

That said, I'm a firm believer in cosmic law, karma - whatever you want to call it - and one day these people will come to regret what they did.
 
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You didn't conduct the post mortem either. However, it was videotaped, and the evidence was clear that proper procedure was followed. That being so, it hardly takes an intellectual giant to follow the evidence to its rational conclusion.

As an amateur, you seem to be lacking in even the most basic common sense to follow what is in fact a very straightforward argument. I'm afraid that your amateurish and ill-informed comments really merit no more than a return of your childish "sez you!" comment.

Rolfe.

I'm glad to hear that the professionals came up to your standards, but you are ignoring the fact that GI contents as indicator of time of death are not reliable so your reliance on it rather invalidates your conclusions. Like, totally.
 
Mary, my friend, far be it from me to cynically suspect that you might here be arguing tongue in cheek, primarily to send an opposition poster on a long homework assignment.

Just a quick cite from Dr Halkides's own blog to satisfy you that BOT is absolutely correct.
(You do trust this source, do you not ??)

"Unbelievably, Edda Mellas claimed that Amanda Knox didn’t know Rudy Guede despite the fact that Amanda Knox testified IN COURT that she had met Rudy Guede on several occasions."

http://viewfromwilmington.blogspot.com/2010/08/eighteen-false-or-misleading-claims.html

Please excuse me for not piling more easily obtained cites on you, but quite frankly, Edda and Auntie Janet are hardly the type of personalities that I deem even remotely authoritative about anything.
I respectfully prefer more productive use of time than detailing the myriad of occasions and topics that Edda and Auntie Janet, two of Marriott's anointed media spokespersons, have 'misspoke' about.

There is zero evidence that Amanda "knew" Guede, as in knew him by name by Nov 2 2007.

IIRC, she was able to remember and describe him when asked about visitors she had seen or met in the downstairs flat, but was not able to remember his name.

To you, of course, this was a "lie".
 
Danceme,

I see no reason to conclude that the list of 250 items is a complete survey of all household products. Indeed, given that there are likely to be differences from one country to another, I think it is not. However, the real problem here is that the forensic police did not follow up their presumptive tests with any confirmatory test (neither TMB nor DNA profiling is confirmatory of blood). If you were asking the defense to say which substance it was, that would be reversing the burden of proof.

Prof Tower (Google translation)

Now the footprints are these then in consulting Rinaldi and Bohemia it is said: "footprints imprinted deposition of blood substance" but how do you say that the fingerprints were impressed by deposition of substance blood, we can say that those footprints are luminescent at luminol, we all know that the fingerprints that we ... are extremely varied other materials that become luminescent luminol, Sarah spoke to me of a funny case, perhaps she wanted to talk about but there was one case in our part of the luminescent luminol footprints that have given problems in the course of an investigation (inc .) blood and not blood, it is also clear that it was ... because they were small because otherwise you could not possibly understand that they were the footprints of the child who had gone swimming in the pool and that it was taking out the dirty feet of chlorine had left all this walk, now I guess if those footsteps were not a child how many experts would have made measurements of the Scientific Police and were likely written for the deposition of blood substance. Goodness does not add that ... 1 in the survey was pulled out of the DNA, in the survey no 7, now with this
luminescence is hard to imagine that it would not be pulled out of the DNA, is a strong luminescence, the first would be appropriate to perhaps make a specific diagnosis of blood but then speak of these things connect. Then we have the impression taken at the plantar Amanda Knox and relief 1 luminol, Bohemia and th_ experts speak Rinaldi I think in this case likely identity, now first of all be aware that literature is not always advisable to make an impression, but only different position, I do not know if in this case has been made because the impression can change depending on the attitude of the foot, an external pressure, internal, and so on but I am not an expert on fingerprints, and can tell you, even measurements I know we discussed the fact that the measures also had been wrong consistently, I would point out that there are no trade these metrics luminescent strips that are made specifically to be put right next to the findings of interest to be photographed with luminol as a reference metric precision and then work on photographs, is longer, is shorter and has a photo taken sideways so it is difficult to reach then a matter of some interest but above all this I ask myself, these gentlemen have made a sea of calculations , I have now read a bit 'of literature on these things but here I did not ... not a matter of reading the literature, it is clear that Amanda has this foot let's call the second index finger of the foot to make themselves more understandable than longus, the impression the second finger is shorter frankly, the impression with luminol, be Amanda's foot that its mark has inked a long second toe, with that luminol was there with shorter second toes, on this I would say that it rains there. Now I'm not a particular fingerprint expert but if there is one thing that catches your eye when we know that most people have the second longest finger of the big however, there has a good share
shorter I do not think it would be silly to take the fingerprints of other young men who frequented the house and that potentially had walked with bare feet coming out of the shower that perhaps maybe it was washed with chlorine for cleaning and may have left fingerprint luminol positive everywhere. I do not want to say but unfortunately I have no precise image, the only other foot as I can see is that the victim, here there is no image that you see well but if I have to say the foot of the victim who seems to invite the pictures of feet of victim available to learn it, it would seem to have shorter second fingers, you can not say because this is slightly flexed, this is to say that the victim may very well one day before, two days before having a shower and made he pounded the floor and leaving a positive imprint with luminol. Attention will discuss the links but the fact that there is the DNA of Amanda down there has absolutely no meaning in the sense of being allowed to relate the luminescence of luminol with the presence of DNA in the house where a person lives is normal there is, I do not say, but almost everywhere. Probable identity, also apply here the same things, even for the second stamp is clearly seen that here there is no trace of the long second toe. Here, about the likely identity of this fact they are talking about these people exist, you just described ... ENS has agreed, among other things is described in a recent Italian text of 2009 which was attended also intimately that it seems to me that the manager of the Scientific Police, I know little of environments Police do not know the grades, does not I know they are called, however identification, this is for shoes, but be careful ... and there is no similar criteria in respect of footprints, however the concept is of a general nature, I say that there is an identity when the terms of comparison
have the same general features and details. Probable identification, this is what our Scientific Police say but be careful to talk about probable identification is a clear match of design and form in the absence of significant differences as a coincidence of the general features or some marks of wear also must be fulfilled at least one of the following criteria are observable marks, what is a tag? In forensic medicine we study the characteristics and markings, the features are the blue eyes, brown hair, are part of the kit are the anatomical characteristics of each man and therefore may have some value to identify a person, I can say that with the hair blond and blue eyes, and the marks are something abnormal, have a tattoo, have an amputation of a finger, are a wound, are a particular surgery, these prints here is to arrive at a probable ... to have an identity must be equal, to have a likely identity must still have the marks or traceable to the batch and then speaks of shoe marks or causal for example, I once walked on the nails and me are full of holes or there is a clear agreement in the specific wear marks then can not be defined, and so on, however, is all. Be careful even with regard to ... I'm almost done, with regard to the luminol literature insists that the luminol spreads easily and can alter the design of fingerprints.


This is very interesting. I wonder if it is worthwhile to look at this luminol print in comparison to Amanda's reference footprint as closely as we have looked at the bathmat print comparisons?
 
you are ignoring the fact that GI contents as indicator of time of death are not reliable so your reliance on it rather invalidates your conclusions. Like, totally.


Your characterisation of the evidential value of GI contents is simplistic, naive and poorly informed. In other words, I'm afraid you have no idea at all what you're talking about.

Rolfe.
 
There is zero evidence that Amanda "knew" Guede, as in knew him by name by Nov 2 2007.

IIRC, she was able to remember and describe him when asked about visitors she had seen or met in the downstairs flat, but was not able to remember his name.

To you, of course, this was a "lie".

And to me. She's a proven liar, and imo lied everywhere she thought she saw an advantage, including "never even met" possibly for the consumption of her parents. Or Ciolino lied and parents repeated, or parents lied and Ciolino repeated. Take your pick.

There is evidence she was acquainted with Guede, there is no "evidence" she didn't know him.
 
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Trial testimony project

Any Italian speakers that want to help with this, please send me a PM. This might be a really long term thing with just one day's testimony averaging 150 pages. I only have about 20% of the transcripts (so far).
 
And to me. She's a proven liar, and imo lied everywhere she thought she saw an advantage, including "never even met" possibly for the consumption of her parents. Or Ciolino lied and parents repeated, or parents lied and Ciolino repeated. Take your pick.n

There is evidece she was acquainted with Guede, there is no "evidence" she didn't know him.

I'd say it's clear you made up the quote, that's why you're unable to provide the source.
 
And to me. She's a proven liar, and imo lied everywhere she thought she saw an advantage, including "never even met" possibly for the consumption of her parents. Or Ciolino lied and parents repeated, or parents lied and Ciolino repeated. Take your pick.n

There is evidece she was acquainted with Guede, there is no "evidence" she didn't know him.

To you, she's a "proven liar", but there isn't actually any proof that she ever lied (lie = conscious attempt to deceive, NOT simply stating a falsehood, or even, simply, being mistaken)
 
Any Italian speakers that want to help with this, please send me a PM. This might be a really long term thing with just one day's testimony averaging 150 pages. I only have about 20% of the transcripts (so far).

Not an Italian speaker, but do you have those transcripts up for download somewhere?
 
I'm glad to hear that the professionals came up to your standards, but you are ignoring the fact that GI contents as indicator of time of death are not reliable so your reliance on it rather invalidates your conclusions. Like, totally.

Where is your basis for saying they're "not reliable"? I think you are misrepresenting a source which stated they were "not sufficiently precise" to be used in quite another murder case in which the point at contention was quite different. You need to put up, or shut up.

Don't forget that the prosecution depends on Meredith's pizza meal remaining undigested and wholly in her stomach from 6:30pm until 11:45pm. You don't need any specialist training to know that this is complete nonsense - unless you happen to be a different species, or from a different planet, than Meredith Kercher.
 
Don't forget that the prosecution depends on Meredith's pizza meal remaining undigested and wholly in her stomach from 6:30pm until 11:45pm. You don't need any specialist training to know that this is complete nonsense - unless you happen to be a different species, or from a different planet, than Meredith Kercher.


I think you have to go with "different planet". I can't think off-hand of any species on this planet that would retain a meal in the stomach, with parts of the food still recognisable as their original form, for that length of time. (Disclaimer: I'm not an expert on amphibians, or reptiles, or hibernating species.)

It takes an extraordinarily strong determination to push for guilt to imagine such a thing might be possible. I can barely imagine that a prosecution would be dishonest enough to try it. That the bench aided and abetted and even elaborated on the mischaracterisations in order to find for guilt is actually quite shocking.

Rolfe.

PS. I wonder if any of the guilter parties have wondered, if GI tract contents are of no evidential use in determining the time of death, why is there such a strict protocol as regards tying off the tract in sections before it's disturbed or opened, to ensure valid information about degree of fill of the different segments can be obtained? I mean, it's useless, right?

Of course, it's not usless. The information needs to be correctly interpreted, in context. That's the sort of nuanced thinnking that isn't really conspicuous in the guilter arguments.
 
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