Boy oh boy you can sure say that again, over!
Strikes me that since the only reference to the specific coordinates is (according to Doctor Socks) given in a certain specific book, the answer to that is much simpler. Is he thinking Stone is going to remember "00 41 15 N and 23 26 00 E" for 40-odd years, and write it into his book? Isn't it rather more likely he (or someone else) simply said "insert coordinates here" and when they got to the clean-up stage on the manuscript, looked up "Location of Tranquility Base" on Google or whatever?
It would seem that my MO, with its odd rhetorical question format, would be by now viewed as rather obvious. Thanks to nomuse for the post. It does not appear there was/were/are/or perhaps ever again will be any other takers, but there need be only one. Thank you nomuse.
As my forum colleague, and as it would seem, the lone survivor/participant in this debate from the opposing camp, pointed out, it may well have been the case that whoever called Lick Observatory on the night of 07/20/1969 provided coordinates other than 00 41 15 north and 23 26 00 east. The substance of my presentation in the last post above should now of course be viewed as one in which the point about the coordinates as fed to Remington Stone and Joe Wampler that "epic evening" is moot. Who cares really what the numbers were? What matter, the exact numbers spoken that evening? No matter at all, the Apollo fraud insiders can be seen clearly to have had foreknowledge of the coordinates, regardless of the specific Lick Observatory/Houston fraud perpetrator interaction. The question about Stone and the coordinates was asked as I am sure many have already recognized, to advance the debate to a point where we all recognize the specifics(actual numbers given) of the Lick Observatory/Houston discussion that night as irrelevant to the circumstance, the unimpeachable fact, of foreknowledge, and the conclusion which follows this unimpeachable fact, fraud.
We know Lick Observatory was contacted and targeted the laser upon the lunar LRRR before the astronauts even "left the moon's surface". A quote from the Apollo 11 Mission Commentary to be sure we all understand that this is a point very much not in contention;
"APOLLO 11 MISSION COMMENTARY, 7/21/69, CDT 12 noon, GET 123:28, 405/1 PAO. This is Apollo Control. Here in mission
control center Flight Director Glen Lunney is polling the various positions here in the control room on their readiness
to go ahead with the ascent from this next pass as the command module comes around the moon, and we're some 53 minutes now
away from ascent. Meanwhile back at the scientific experiment situation, another attempt is scheduled today to shoot another
laser beam up to the laser retroreflector, which is the other part of the experiment package left on the moon."
We know the coordinates given to the Lick Observatory Staff, no matter what they were, were very accurate as per the accounts of those present at Lick Observatory on the evening of the landing, as well as according to the account of the primary investigator for the LRRR experiment, C.O. Alley. According to the Lick staff and Alley, the problems with successfully targeting the LRRR over the 12 days that followed the landing, the 12 days leading up to the first successful targeting on 08/01/1969, had nothing to do at all with the accuracy of the coordinates provided. The Lick staff and Alley say the problem was a timing one. Here's Stone and the LRRR Principal Investigator Alley again on that;
"But it should have been enough to ensure the return pulse was detected within the few millionths of a second time window during which that return pulse was expected. After all, the Solar System experts from the Jet Propulsion Laboratory had provided an ephemeris for the anticipated separations between the 3m telescope and the retroreflector on the moon which included the carefully calculated influences of every known variable.
Finally Lloyd Robinson suggested that, despite our assurance that we were looking for the return pulse at the right time, since we were unable to pinpoint any other source of difficulty we should try moving the small window of time within which we were looking for a return signal. That idea soon produced a result, and we were able to center up on a good signal with the expected strength, and began to accumulate data.
It remained to explain the unexpected discrepancy in timing. Every detail of the experiment was examined carefully. It took weeks to finally locate the source of the error within the computer program JPL had used to generate the expected timing for the return signal. They quite reasonably had assumed that Lick Observatory (LO) was where the American Ephemeris and Nautical Almanac (predecessor of the Astronomical Almanac) said it was, which in turn and equally reasonably listed the observatory location as given by the U.S. Coast and Geodetic Survey (USCGS). USCGS thought LO was where their Lick Observatory benchmark was placed. Their benchmark was in the parking lot west of the Main Building, 1700 feet from the 3m telescope.
Thus, the first result of this very sophisticated Lunar Laser Ranging Experiment was to accurately measure the distance between the 3m telescope and the Main Building parking lot - via a retroreflector on the moon!
The first scientific paper which resulted from this experiment improved the previous best measurements of distance to the Moon by a factor of 100. This activity is still being conducted from McDonald Observatory. Using the much shorter laser pulses and faster electronics now feasible, distances to the Moon are routinely measured to within about one centimeter per night!"
And Stone's account is corroborated by C.O.Alley in his landmark article appearing in the journal SCIENCE from 30 January 1969. Here is a quote from that article about this from the LRRR Experiment's principal investigator;
"A first "geodetic result" from the acquisition observations at Lick (9) was the discovery, from the drift of the residual round-trip travel time with respect the JPL lunar ephemeris 16 (LE16)predictions, that the coordinates for the 120-inch telescope are not those given for Mt. Hamilton (Lick Observatory)in the American Ephemeris and Nautical Almanac(9a). The Lick Observatory participated in the acquisition phase of the experiment to increase the probability of getting early returns. The weather and seeing are generally excellent there in the summer. Laser ranging activities ceased at Lick in August."
So we may conclude with certainty that the coordinates given to the Lick Observatory staff on the evening of 07/20/1969 were indeed accurate to within 2 miles(width of the laser beam) of 00 41 15 north and 23 26 00 east. We can say that with utter confidence because the LRRR was without a doubt targeted on the evening of 07/20/1969, but that targeting was not successful, and the reason for this lack of success had to do with the Jet Propulsion Lab's bad math, moon to Lick Observatory Telescope distance misinformation that resulted in timing miscalculations. Another way to say it, had the Jet Propulsion Lab done their job properly, assuming no other problems, the LRRR may well have been successfully targeted on the evening of 07/20/1969, as the location of the LRRR was known with an accuracy satisfactory enough to achieve successful targeting. Since the beam is 2 miles wide, we may conclude the numbers given to Lick where within 2 miles of 00 41 15 north and 23 26 00 east, whatever the numbers maybe have been. Not being able to find the LRRR from 07/20/1969 until it was found on 08/1/1969 was not a coordinate accuracy problem , but a JPL timing/programming problem. The coordinates given to Lick Observatory on the evening of 07/20/1969 were plenty accurate enough.
Additionally, we have H. David Reed, the man who located the Eagle for Mission Control and calculated the Eagle/CM rendezvous solution, tell us that on the evening of 07/20/1969 and well into the day of 07/21/1969, all of the landing coordinate estimates known to the Apollo Mission Control Staff and astronauts, regardless of the method of coordinate determination, were at least 4.5 miles distant from the LRRR. In other words, as flight officers at Mission Control and astronauts did not have coordinate estimates better than to within 4.5 miles of Tranquility Base's location, we may conclude with confidence the coordinates provided to the Lick Observatory staff by a "principal" from Houston were coordinates obtained outside the context of the official Apollo 11 Mission narrative. This fact constitutes incontrovertible evidence for Apollo 11 Mission fraudulence.
Here's H.David Reed, the Mission Control FIDO giving testimony in support of this as he wrote in the collection of NASA flight officer memoirs entitled, FROM THE TRENCHES OF MISSION CONTROL TO THE CRATERS OF THE MOON;
"I remember taking my headset off and walking up to the Flight Director, Milt Windler to explain the situation. We only used that kind of face to face communication when we had a serious problem such as this. I detailed the problem as best we knew it and the process that we’d have to follow to get the data we needed, and why we had to start a rev early to finish the calculations and then find the critical lift-off time for lunar launch. I recall the CapCom instructing Buzz Aldrin that we needed him to perform the RR check early but I don’t believe that CapCom explained why, just another check was all. Shaft & trunnion angles were passed up to aid acquisition. Right on time as the CSM cleared the horizon we began seeing data. We counted the agonizing minutes as the telemetry came flowing in until the CSM was receding. Now we had the data we needed to run the problem (a rendezvous problem in reverse) and get the correct liftoff time*. And that’s what we used. Later we would find out just where were we on the surface. We were actually over 25,000 feet from the nearest of the other five choices we had! At 5,000-fps orbital velocity of the CSM that could have been up to a ten second error in liftoff."
Maurice Kennedy; Charles Deiterich III; William Stoval; William Boone III; Glynn S. Lunney; H. David Reed; Jerry C. Bostick (2011-05-13). From The Trench of Mission Control to the Craters of The Moon (EBOOK Locations 5657-5672).
So we may conclude with certainty that the coordinates provided to the Lick Observatory staff were within 2 miles of 00 41 15 north and 23 26 00 east. We may also conclude with certainty that these coordinates were not calculated by way of the PNGS, MFSN tracking , AGS, AOT, mapping/photos and not even targeted landing site. As we have come to learn, such foreknowledge can only be explained in one way, fraud. We have now shown this to be true irrespective of the precise coordinates given to Stone on that mythically tragic evening, and our claims of foreknowledge and fraud have now been rigorously confirmed by NASA's own documents and the very reliable history of that evening's events as provided by Mission Control's talented and dedicated launch trajectory specialist, H. David Reed.
So the $64,000 is not where were the astronauts on the surface of the moon, but who knew where they were pretending to be?
Apollo 11 Mission Commentary 7/22/1969 CDT 15:57 GET 151:25
"CAPCOM Roger. For 64 000 dollars we're still
trying to work out the location of your landing site, Tran- quility Base. We think it is located on LAM2 Chart at Julia
.5 and 7.8. Do you still have those charts onboard? Over.
SC Stand by one. They're packed.
CAPCOM Roger. You may not have to unpack it. The position which I Just gave you is slightly west of west crater.
I guess it's about two tenths of a kilometer west of it, and we were wondering if Nell or Buzz had observed any additional
landmarks during descent lunar state or ascent which would confirm or disprove this. One thing we're wondering about is
that if you were at this position you would have seen the
Cat's Paw during the ascent just up to the north of your track.
Over.
SC We were looking for the Cat's Paw too, thinking we were probably downrange, beyond the Big Z. But
I think that it's likely that that might have been West crater that we went across in landing, but - Stand by.
SC We're hoping, Bruce, that our 16 millimeter film was working at that point in descent and we'll be able
_ to confirm our touchdown position. We thought that during ascent '_e might be able to pick up some recognizable objects close to the landing site, and we did see a number of small
craters and crater rows and things like that, which we may be able to pick out after the fact, but we haven't been able to
yet.
CAPCOM Roger. And the next question from our panel is for Buzz, We recall that he reported seeing a laser
upon AOS of the Earth the first time after - the first REV
after ascent, and we're wondering what color the beam was and
if he could determine at the approximate location with respect to the Earth. Over.
SC It was mostly white - perhaps a tinge of yellowish color to it, and it seemed to be, as I recall it,
the terminator of the Earth was toward the horizon and seemed to be about a quarter to a third of the way down from - down
toeards the terminator of the Earth from the opposite horizon. That's a third to a quarter of the Earth's radii. Over."
You can say that again, over…………………. Best to all, DrPat
